Talk:Freedom Party of Austria

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Good article Freedom Party of Austria has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
March 17, 2011 Good article nominee Listed
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Election box metadata[edit]

This article contains some sub-pages that hold metadata about this subject. This metadata is used by the Election box templates to display the color of the party and its name in Election candidate and results tables.

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[Untitled][edit]

From the text:

" [The Austrian Freedom Party] attracted a wide range of adherents from anti-clerical liberals worried about Catholic Austria's potential isolation from the outside world to German nationalists, a minority of whom would have even been sympathetic to some Nazi policies."

As always, this is not a rhetorical question: Do we want this kind of language here? Or would we prefer the straightforward "A considerable percentage of party members were former Nazis." ? <KF> 20:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Is A considerable percentage of party members were former Nazis. an assumption or a verified fact? Gugganij 10:00, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
" […] The Austrians (former members of the Nazi party) who had lost their voting rights after the war thus benefited from an amnesty in 1948. The creation in 1949 of the League of the Independents (which became the Freedom Party, FPÖ, in 1956) was specifically intended to provide the former Nazis (the so-called Ehemalige) with a voice in the new Republic, and it duly gained 12 per cent of the votes in the parliamentary elections held that same year. […]"
Read the whole article entitled "Brown Stains", by Magali Perrault, Central Europe Review Vol.2, No.15 (April 17, 2000) ( http://www.ce-review.org/00/15/perrault15.html ) and decide yourself. <KF> 20:19, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Recent Split[edit]

Re: the recent split in the party, what exactly are the issues that caused the split? Right now it's extremely vague. john k 4 July 2005 15:31 (UTC)

I don't think this is exactly known. It seems that Haider initiated a split to get rid of those who were discontent with the party's position in government and did not want to follow his leadership. Martg76 4 July 2005 20:22 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Freedom Party of Austria/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: Großdeutschland is a disambiguation page, not sure how you want to resolve that. I found no obvious target. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Substantive review will be posted within 24 hours. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria[edit]

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    The FPÖ existed as a third party with only modest support from its foundation until the mid 1980s when it came in government together with the Social Democratic Party (SPÖ), although it had been able to tolerate an SPÖ minority government already in 1970. Clumsy and ungrammatical.
    It however also led the SPÖ to breake its cooperation with the party, and later, the adherents of a position closer to classical liberalism within the party broke with Haider and formed the now-marginalized party Liberal Forum (LiF). Clumsy, ungrammatical and incorrect spelling.
    The government could continue still after the 2002 election, but increasing internal disagreements led Haider and other leading party members (including the FPÖ part of the government) in 2005 to defect from the FPÖ and form a new party, the Alliance for the Future of Austria (BZÖ). And again. Clearly failing criterion #1 "reasonably well written". Please get this copy-edited by someone with a good command of plain English. The WP:Guild of copyeditors may be able to help.
    I made a few further copy-edits. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Sources appear to be RS, well referenced, no evidence of OR
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    Appears to satisfy the criteria
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    NPOV
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    It would seem that File:There goes the neighborhood.jpg and File:FPÖ Anti-EU Poster, Vienna March 2006.jpg are potentila copyright violations.
    Resolved these images have been deleted.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    The main problem is the rather poor prose. The article should never have been nominated in this state. It is the responsibility of the nominator to ensure that the article meets the good article criteria, before nomination. WP:GAN is not the place to start work on improvements to articles. Can you get this thoroughly copy-edited in seven days? If so, I will continue the review, otherwise it will fail this nominations. On hold for seven days. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
    Ok follwing copy-editing and deletion of two images, this article passes muster, I am happy to list it. Congratulations! Jezhotwells (talk) 23:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I have now completed a copyedit of the lead, which was indeed very poor. Please tell me if you think it's ok now, or if it should get more attention. I also removed the possible copyvio images. – Bellatores (t.) 13:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
OK, I will re-read the article thoroughly this evening. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:51, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Well there have been a few improvements but the same faults in the prose persist throughout, especially in the misuse of "was" for "were" and vice versa. The grammar is very poor. I think you may need to find someone else to copy-edit.
Ok, I have now requested help for a copyedit. – Bellatores (t.) 20:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that one user now claimed it was more correct to don't specify size for the Jörg Haider image. I had it at 160px before, and honestly think the new size is inappropriately large. – Bellatores (t.) 18:35, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
It probably would be better a little smaller, especially for those reading on a small screen. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I see a copy-edit is in progress, I will check again when it has been competed. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Copy-edit's done; thanks for your patience (I was bogged down copy-editing another article). Wi2g 19:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Source please[edit]

I would like to see the source for "Ideologically the party is a direct descendant of the German national liberal camp, which dates back to the 1848 revolutions.". The FPÖ was founded as VdU, a group of former NSDAP-members in the early post-war era. Some Observers say, that the party was right-populist, Heribert Schiedel, Anton Pelinka ([1]) and others describe the FPÖ as right-extremist. The FPÖ describes itself as a descendant of the national-liberal camp, but I could not find a independent source for this information. --20:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberaler Humanist (talkcontribs)

There is already an independent scholarly source for it. See the political background subsection under History. (If you are not familiar with Wikipedia, the lead sections usually don't require references if the same information is already referenced in the main text.) – Bellatores (t.) 22:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Far right[edit]

I think it is notable for a neutral article about FPÖ that it is alyways labeled as far-right in mainstream media around the world (CNN, BBC, Spiegel, New York Times, Deutsche Welle, LA Times, Guardian, AFP, Telegraph, Al Jazeera, Reuters, Independent, TIME, MSNBC etc. pp.) I think it is conspicuous and unbalanced not to mention this fact. Do you agree? -- RJFF (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

But is the party far right? The description is "Ideologically, the party is a direct descendant of the German national liberal camp, which dates back to the 1848 revolution". That doesn't sound very far right to me.203.184.41.226 (talk) 05:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure it is fair to classify the FPO as a far-right party. Research by Richard Luther (2000) suggests that it is not. In it, he states: "The Freedom Party is not a neo-fascist, neo-nazi or a right-wing extremist party... " taken from Kurt Richard Luther Austria: A democracy under threat from the Freedom Party? Throughout the article he suggests that articles suggesting the FPO is inherently a far-right party is polemicist in nature. Perhaps amendments need to be made? GM1 22:11, 09 April 2014 (GMT)
I have added a [citation needed] tag to the page. I suggest, owing to the research by Luther (2000), that either the far-right label is removed altogether, or a new section is added to the page outlining the academic debate surrounding that descriptive.GM1 (talk) 02:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
It is supported by several sources that are referenced in the infobox:
  • Hainsworth, Paul (2008), The Extreme Right in Western Europe, Routledge, pp. 38–39 
  • Art, David (2011), Inside the Radical Right: The Development of Anti-Immigrant Parties in Western Europe, Cambridge University Press, pp. 106–107 
  • Wodak, Ruth; De Cillia, Rudolf; Reisigl, Martin (2009), The Discursive Construction of National Identity (2nd ed.), Edinburgh University Press, p. 195  ("Threats by the current extreme right were almost exclusively seen in connection with the far-right party, the FPÖ, ...")
  • Hale Williams, Michelle (2012), Downside after the summit: factors in extreme-right party decline in France and Austria, Mapping the Extreme Right in Contemporary Europe: From Local to Transnational (Routledge): 260  ("In the autumn of 2008, a snap Austrian election took place on 28 September with ground gained by both the FPÖ and the BZÖ. Extreme right parties captured centre stage following this election." ... "While numbers for the two parties individually remain lower than any of the FPÖ returns since 1990, this election clearly suggests dissatisfaction with mainstream parties that advantages the extreme right in Austria.")
I could add:
  • Taras, Raymond (2012), Xenophobia and Islamophobia in Europe, Edinburgh University Press, p. 99  ("National elections held in Austria in 2008 led to significant gains by two far-right parties, the Freiheitliche Partei Österreichs (Austrian Freedom Party) and the Bündnis Zukunft Österreich (Alliance for Austria's Future)..."
Luther writes that "The Freedom Party is not (...) a right-wing extremist party." 'Right-wing extremism' and 'far right' are sometimes used synonymously, but they are not necessarily. The article does not say that the FPÖ is "right-wing extremist". Moreover, three years after the article you cite, Luther published a chapter about the FPÖ in Right-wing Extremism in the Twenty-first Century, whose editors Peter H. Merkl and Leonard Weinberg write that "Luther's chapter provides an intriguing glimpse of the nuts and bolts of the development of an extreme right party and of the internal repercussions of entry into governmental responsibility of a rambunctious populist protest movement." --RJFF (talk) 15:47, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Ideology[edit]

The liberal national ideology consists on the concept of "Greater Germany", Reunification in "Deutsche Land", as the article says. That is the original ideology.--83.34.223.50 (talk) 04:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The only source I could find in the footnotes that could verify (current) "national liberalism", is the statement of Mölzer in Die Presse. It states that Mölzer sees himself as national liberal, not that the party as a whole is national liberal. So, it is both non-NPOV and Original Research to conclude from the ideology of one individual (I admit: notable) member to the ideology of the whole party. The same with national conservatism. Mrs. Rosenkranz herself states that she was a national conservative. It does not mean that the party as a whole has to bear that label, too. The conclusion "F.P. has been national liberal in the past, so it still is today" looks like OR to me, as well. If it really is national liberal, it should be very easy to find reliable sources to verify it. But I could not find any. Especially in a Good Article, fundamental Wikipedia principles like verifiability, NPOV, and no OR should be applied.

Moreover, in my opinion the sentence "International reputable media habitually denote the Freedom Party of Austria as far right." with reference to reliable sources is more balanced and fits a Good Article better than the statement "The F.P. is a far right, populist political party" without references. If you think it is poor, you can make it better. And if you think it does not belong to the ideology section, or the lead section, you can put it somewhere else.

Kind regards -- RJFF (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I fully recognize that there is a certain problem with specifying "ideology" for this party. But you should consider, that not every party has a clearly identified ideology in the manner of, for instance, social democratic parties. Some parties have a more "broad" or "floating" profile, characterised by the party not declaring a specific centralised ideology, but rather including a certain degree of ideological currents. I believe this is what we're dealing with here, and certainly, national liberalism and national conservatism is the two most notable and identifiable ideological currents in the FPÖ. If the party only seems to identify itself as "freiheitlich", that doesn't mean that the party is simply removed from any kind of ideology. Certainly, some parties have been reliably identified as e.g. "nationalist", although the party does not declare that it is this itself (in the case of, e.g. the French FN). However, this is not the case with the FPÖ, as the only ideology I have seen it refered to is "national liberal". Otherwise, we've only seen "right-wing populism", and that is certainly not adequate in this particular context (we perfectly well can, and should, mention it though, as we do in the lead). – Bellatores (t.) 19:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I am still not content with the labels used in the infobox. I am aware that it is more important to have a detailed, balanced and well-sourced analysis of the party's ideology in the article's body. Again, I admit that this was done successful in this article. Anyone who looks for a thorough description and critical examination of the key positions of F.P.'s program, will find it here. But for users who want to extract basic information after quick reading, the lead section and the info box are of highest interest. Therefore the rules for a Good Article, have to be applyed here as well. Bellatores, you say that it is difficult to label the ideology of the F.P. as it is "broad or floating". I would say, that is typical for a populist party. Therefore it is best fitting to have "right-wing populism" as the ideology tag in the infobox. I do know that you may not like this term and find it inaccurate, unbalanced or polarising. But that is true for any ideology label that only consists of one or two words. It is true for national liberalism, it is true for social democracy, and it is very true for conservatism, as well. Therefore, whatever stands in the "ideology" field of the infobox on any political party will only be a rough categorisation. Who wants to explore the ideology or objectives of it, has to read the whole article, not the infobox. Still, "right-wing populism" is a scholarly category, and it is as opportune to use it, as it is to use national liberalism, or social democracy, or conservatism. That is why all scholarly sources this article uses, label F.P. as right-wing populist. Gingrich does, Meret does, Riedlsperger does, even in the title of his work, and Campbell does at least use "populist". But no reputable scholar uses "national liberalism" on the present-day F.P., no serious publication verifies it. Only the F.P. politicians use it for themselves, because it sounds better than "right-wing populism" in their ears. But that is not neutral at all. Of course, the F.P. was national liberal in the past. But you did research on this party, you must know there was a significant shift in ideology. And to say, some key members of the F.P. still are national liberal, so the party as a whole must be, too, is Original Research. That is not good enough for a good article. Please, find a reliable source to verify the label, or we really have to remove it. Kind regards -- RJFF (talk) 14:31, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Ok, after considering it, I'll agree to also put right-wing populism in the infobox. – Bellatores (t.) 15:26, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Could you please also consider removing the - as far as I can see still unsourced - assertions of national liberalism and national conservatism? I think I have provided enough arguments in my above contributions. Regards -- RJFF (talk) 09:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Far-right translates to "rechtsaußen" or "rechtsrechts" in Austrian German. "Rechtsextremistisch" would be right-wing extremist. So far-right is the correct label, both in Austrian and, also important in the English wikipedia, international view.

Moreover, above I gave a most detailed rationale for removing the ideology tags from the infobox. One more: Euroscepticism is not defining the ideology of the F.P. to an extent that it should be included in the infobox. Only main influences of the ideology should be included here. It is appropriate for parties that were particularly founded as anti-EU parties, which the F.P. is not. Additionally, euroscepticism usually comes along with right-wing extremism. If you disagree, please discuss this, rather than reverting without comment - which is, as you know, considered rude and not accepted. Kindest regards -- RJFF (talk) 17:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

No, the label “Far-right” is exactly the equivalent of German “rechstextremistisch.” NPD e.g. is “rechtsextremistisch” and it is “far-right” in English. There is no scholarly consensus to label the FPÖ as such, but given the presence of the notion here and there in the media, perhaps just note the fact in the main text of the article. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:13, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Miacek, I asked you not to revert my edit without discussion. The rollback right is designed to quickly remove vandalism or obviously unfounded edits. It is not designed to push your position where there is no consensus and discussion would be the thing to do. In my opinion, the infobox should only include the most defining ideology(ies) of the party. It cannot substitute the description of the ideology in the main text. Therefore, national liberalism which has been defining in the past (pre-1986) should not be in the infobox, it is expressly mentioned in the main text. National conservatism is - as far as I can see - still unsourced. (Please show me the source if I am blind) As to euroscepticism: please see above. Regards -- RJFF (talk) 17:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello. I would prefer to conduct the edits I proposed, with your approval. Unfortunately, I have the impression that both of you, Bellatores and Miacek, have no particular interest in discussion. I would kindly ask you to talk about your concerns, if you have any objections. I believe that I provided a good deal of arguments for my edits, but alas, I could not notice that you faced up to them. Warm regards --RJFF (talk) 13:58, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

When your agenda clearly is POV-pushing against (several) right-wing political parties, I can understand that you don't even recognize the existence of a discussion; given that serious users don't automatically cave in to your personal opinions. You want to remove perfectly fine material in the article, which itself can simply not be tolerated. Both myself and Miacek have discussed and explained perfectly well why things should be as they are, but unfortunately, you will never be satisfied unless this (and other) party is exclusively labelled "right-wing populist". You should be able to see for yourself why this is just plain nonsense. – Bellatores (t.) 13:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Bellatores, I would be glad if you could try to avoid being personal, but lead this discussion objectively and politely. I have already informed you that I am not trying to pursue any agenda. Unfortunately, I cannot admit that you have explained your position "perfectly well". To the contrary, I have the impression that you have not taken notice of my arguments at all, and that you have not really answered my propositions. To make the discussion easier, I would like to repeat my concerns shortly:
  1. I am of the opinion that the "ideology" field of the "infobox: political party" should contain the main ideology (maybe two) of the party, and not half a dozen of currents that may have influenced some parts of the party at some time in the past. According to the reliable sources on which this articles is based (Riedlsperger, Meret, Gingrich), the main ideology is right-wing populism.
  2. I advise against including national conservatism, because it is not verified. (At least I still cannot see the source. Where is it? Help me, please.)
  3. I advise against including euroscepticism, because it is not dominating or defining the ideology of the F.P. It is just one element. Therefore I hold it not important enough for the infobox, the reader can extract it from the main text. Additionally, euroscepticism usually comes along with right-wing populism. No need to highlight it.
  4. I advise against including national liberalism, because it is not defining the ideology any more. It was the dominant ideology in the past. But nowadays it is only a memory. Therefore I hold it not important enough for the infobox, the reader can extract it from the main text.
  5. I assure you, that it is not harmful to let right-wing populism stand alone for the ideology. First, right-wing populism is a scholarly category, and not a political combat term. Why should neutral political scientists, whose works have helped writing and verifying this article, use it? Secondly, it perfectly describes the "broad" and "floating" character of F.P.'s ideology.
I would be very pleased if you could give your view on my arguments on a factual base. I am ready to allow myself to be convinced by your counter-arguments. Really! Respectfully yours --RJFF (talk) 16:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I have now expanded a more in-depth section in the article that briefly discusses the party's ideology. – Bellatores (t.) 19:31, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Excellent work. I believe this is very helpful. Could you please also clearly state your position on what I have written above, concerning the infobox? I would really like to know your reaction. Kind regards --RJFF (talk) 19:44, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, it is your personal opinion to just include one single ideology in the infobox. While this may be appropriate in some cases, most cases require more than just a single ideology to sufficiently describe a party. In fact, there are no limits to how many ideologies that could be included in the infobox, just look at the extreme cases of the American Republican Party and Democratic Party. All things considered, I think the ideology section of the infobox in this article is currently very good and descriptive. – Bellatores (t.) 20:26, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

All right. That is straightforward. I can accept this. The source material for "national conservatism" is still a bit slim (one German newspaper article! Usually you don't rely on German newspaper articles, do you? Especially when they use "right-wing populism...") But I cannot complain. One last question: do you think that euroscepticism is really that important? Thank you for finally working together. Good night. --RJFF (talk) 20:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

When no good English-language sources can be found for various issues, I don't hesitate to find other-language sources, which I have also done previously in this article. I have also never disputed the fact that media and scholars like to use the term "right-wing populism"; just in which contexts the term is relevant. To your second question, as it has become common to include euroscepticism (or in some cases pro-Europeanism) in the infoboxes of political parties, I see no reason why this article should be different. As far I have understood, euroscepticism is also a rather important issue for the FPÖ, in addition to the party being the most significant eurosceptic party in Austria. – Bellatores (t.) 21:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your detailed explanation of your standpoint. Now, I can comprehend it very well. All dissent cleared. Kind regards --RJFF (talk) 15:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

AUSTRIAN REUNIFICATION WITH DEUTSCHLAND As the article says, the "liberal national" ideology always supported Austrian Reunification with Deutschland. So, if now the policy is the opposite, they are not liberal nationalists but Zionists (as the visit to Israel has confirmed)--83.34.223.50 (talk) 04:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but it dosen't work