Talk:Frisians

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Untitled[edit]

"They have a reputation for being tall and light-haired people" Sorry but, living there myself, i can say thats completely rubbish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.39.211.23 (talk) 03:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Pre-Roman[edit]

Where did the Frisians come from? Do we know anything about them pre-roman? Redge(Talk) 14:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe they came out of Denmark and moved along German wadden sea to friesland. but i i am not sure so dont put in article 81.69.203.77 20:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I know that before the roman times there was the Frisian realm, an ancient kingdom which was eventually conquered. it spanned from modern day North Friesland to around Zeeland. --Mike Oosting (talk) 21:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

In the second paragraph of this section, something happened in the C- and D-periods, but these periods have no introduction. When were they? Can I be Frank? (Talk to me!) 03:45, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Danish?[edit]

According to this map, a small part of Frisia is in Denmark. Do these Frisians speak Frisian or Danish or both? --Khoikhoi 07:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Upon looking at the map again, I'm not really sure if that very tiny green spot in Denmark is actually significant. --Khoikhoi 07:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
To my knowledge (the best of it), the tiny portion of historic Frisia that extends into Denmark has no significant ethnic Frisian (including Frisian-speaking) population. This coastal strip and adjoining islands were under Prusso-German rule from 1864 to 1920, during which time both Frisian, Danish and Low Saxon speech was fiercely discouraged in all spheres of society (see Germanization). The map shows present Frisia; historic Frisia extends from northeast of Amsterdam to northeast of Esbjerg. //Big Adamsky 16:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
There is an ethnic Frisian population on both the North Sea islands of Germany and southern Jutland, however the number of Frisian speakers is unknown. Whether the peoples there speak mainly Frisian or not, it is safe to say there are peoples there who are descended from ethnic Frisians. Epf 05:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
There are no frisian-speaking population in Denmark. Just a small number of towns between the german border and the town of Tønder has ethnic frisian population (around the Vidå). Bernd, 09:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
There aren't any Frisian Speakers left in Jutland, but there are a small amount of ethnic Frisians, and according to the Friisk Foriiing, some of these ethnic frisians are relearning their language --Mike Oosting (talk) 21:36, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"historic Frisia extends from northeast of Amsterdam to northeast of Esbjerg." Sorry but this is just plain wrong. The boundaries of Magna Frisia as described in the Lex Frisionum of 802 AD, describes the borders running from the river Zwin just north of Brugge (Bruges) to the River Weser at Bremen. There is no mention how far north Magna Frisia went but consensus seems to be around the current German/ Danish border (ie the area still called North Friesland) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pytter (talkcontribs) 19:33, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

German![edit]

The tiny minority in this tiny piece of Denmark isreally irrelevant; what is relevant is the fact that Frisian people cover the whole German Bight from the western end in Holland to the northern end on the Danish border. This surely makes the 85% majority of Frisians part of Germany and Frisians part of the ethnic people inhabiting Germany - it are also mostly German politicians who promote Frisian language and culture. (the remaining 15% are Dutch with 0.2% Danish)

What is you point? Krastain 12:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Religion[edit]

I changed the Religion table to Diverse after someone changed it to "Athiest" Agnostic, et cetera. Greater Frisia covers a rather diverse area including parts of Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, et cetera, and it seems foolish to try to lump it all into one religious category. Besides, the ancient Frisian tribe would have been Norse pagan in orientation. Please provide consensus discussion. Athiest is not a religion anyway. Sandwich Eater 19:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the modern Frisians - the ancient Frisians are their ancestors. How does "Mostly Christianity" sound? Saying "diverse" is way to vague - how many Buddhist, Shinto, Rasta, and Muslim Frisians do you know? --Khoikhoi 01:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The article goes way back to Tacitus and ancient times, and lists several somewhat ancient dukes/princes. Surely the scope of the articile goes well into pre-christian times. Perhaps something like "Traditionally Christian", or Culturally Christian but Diverse? I would just delete the religion category altogether but it seems to be a permanent part of the template. Sandwich Eater 13:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The information in the text box is modern information - "current" population, the languages are those currently spoken in the region, etc. Therefore, I think the current "Religion" information is fine. People will just have to assume that the region was not Christian during the pre-Christian era; those users who have trouble with that should refer to the article Common sense.--Roland 17:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Frisians BC?[edit]

"The people began to be a distinctive tribe in around 200 BC. They were displaced from their homeland to Flanders and Kent, England due to heavy flooding in 250s. Habitation of the area remained impossible for the next 150 years. When some of the Frisians returned in 400s there were already Saxons and Jutes settled there, and the Frisian people merged with them, maintaining the identity and traditions of the Frisian tribe." This part I think a bit strange. First, I'd like to see a source for the claim that they began to be a distinctive tribe around 200 BC. Second I'd like to know how the author knows that the people returning to Frisia were the descendants of the ones who left 150 years earlier. Third, how does he/she know that there even was something like a Frisian identity and traditions? Krastain 14:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't have citations handy but my understanding is that there is an extensive archeological and linguistic record relating to the migrations back and forth between the friesland areas and the eastern UK, East Anglia, Kent et cetera. Further studies have also supported that with DNA evidence. Michael Weale and others in the UK have published their findings in peer reviewed journals (regarding the DNA) but others have published the linguistic and archeological data long before. I'll see what I can dig up on-line. Sandwich Eater 18:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't doubt that the early Frisians moved around a bit in Western Europe, I doubt that 'they' came back to Frisia. Krastain 12:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This 200 BC sounds interesting and plausible. Please revert back towards visibility this phrase whenever you find some historical or archeological references showing indeed we are still talking about the same people. I hope you don't mind I changed the outspoken interpretation of some findings into a more generally accepted view. The theory of Frisians coming back from England to replace immigrants, or immigrants taking their name, could better be referred to as just another theory (although you could include a reference to this view) instead of unshakable scientific truth. The DNA evidence doesn't exclude Frisian participation to the Anglosaxon conquest as a possibility, it rather points out the historical sources are insufficient. We just don't know enough about this whole issue to tell anything with certaincy. Rokus01 21:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Germanic People[edit]

Why isn't the fact that Frisians are a Germanic People mentioned? I added it at the beginning of the piece. Saxons, Franks, Angles, Jutes, Bavarians, Visigoths, etc. are all noted as being Germanic People. Surely it should be added in the article about Frisians as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abu Musab al-Suri (talkcontribs) 11:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Sand and clay Frisians?[edit]

The article says the difference between the major and minor Frisians is the type of soil they till. In wich work does Tacitus mentions this? Krastain 12:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox[edit]

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Picture[edit]

I fail to see why a picture of a descendant of Grutte Pier should be added to this page. This page is about an ethnic group and its contents should be restricted to that. A picture of a descendant of one of its historical figures is in my opinion not to the point. I suggest it will be removed from this page. Pmviersen 10:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Tribename[edit]

"Of the many tribes mentioned, the name 'Frisii' is the only one that is still used"

Suebi or suevi derived from the protogermanic swēbaz, where their name survives in the historic region of Schwabia. Mentioned in paragraph 38 of Tacitus' Germania.

I suppose reference is made to the survival of Frisii as an independent ethnic group. "Being used" are lots of other Germanic names, from Andalucia (Vandals) to France (Franks), and even Schwabia does not boast an independent ethnical identity derived straightforward from their "Suebi" ancestors.Rokus01 23:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed it seems that only the Frisians are capable of such gullible ideas ;)Krastain (talk) 06:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The comment about Frisian gullibility is offensive and NOT NECESSARY. Act like an adult or don't leave comments in an adult forum. There is indeed a factual basis for claiming that the Frisians are the only Germanic people identified in Tacitus' Germania who proceeded to maintain an uninterrupted, demonstrable presence on precisely the same territory ever since. Let's look at the Suebi first as a point of comparison. The Suebi mentioned by Tacitus (who fought Caesar under their leader Ariovist) were a huge migrating tribal confederation. The NAME has certainly survived to the present in Swabia/Schwabenland, Schwaebisch, etc., but there is no reason to believe that the moderns Swabians are direct descendants of Ariovist's warriors. This part of Germania was actually occupied and colonized by Rome under the name "Agri Decumates" in the first centuries AD AFTER ARIOVIST'S DEFEAT. Only later did a Germanic tribe, the Alemanni, return to the area. That's who the modern "Swabians" are--they are descendants of THE ALEMANNI. There is a good possibility that the Suebi and Alemanni were closely related, but we don't know that for sure. We do know for sure, however, that Suebi ended up in Spain and Portugal, settling that area along with Vandals and Alans. (As I say, the Suebi were a migratory people.) I don't need to tell anyone that the modern French can hardly be considered full-blooded Franks, do I? Again, the NAME has been handed down, and, in this case, we know that the Franks were never chased from the area that they conquered and that later adopted their name. But modern French people probably are genetically more Celtic and Roman than Germanic. The English derive their name from the Angles, but the Angles were only one elements within a wave of tribes, including the Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, and probably others, who invaded Britain after the end of Roman rule. I could go on and on with arguments like this regarding every Germanic people mentioned in Tacitus which left some trace in the later names for peoples and places in Europe. The fact is that ONLY in the case of Frisia are both Tacitus and modern-day people undoubtedly talking about the same place, and the same people. As to WHY this is the case, the fact that Frisia has throughout history been somewhat of a coastal backwater goes along way towards explaining it. Frisia has been less affected by the tumultuous forces of war, mass migration, urbanization, etc., that have led to such upheaval and massive demographic change in the rest of Europe. [David Timberlake, 7 April 2009] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.239.49.158 (talk) 23:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

David, although my province may be a "backwater" tit was one of the wealthiest provinces of the United Seven Provinces of The Netherlands and as such attracted many immigrants to the cities and to the country side for peat-digging: Besides peoples from bordering provinces which may haven been of Frisian or Saxon stock, there were many immigrants from Holland, East Frisia, Flanders, French Hugenots, Jews, Germans and so on. Speaking Frisian and belonging to the community is enough to make you Frisian although some will insist that you need to be of Frisian descent as well. I would challneg any Firsian to prove a direct ancestral connection with the Frisii! --Pytter (talk) 20:55, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Description[edit]

"They are mostly tall, light-haired people, women as well as men, and they have a rich history and folklore." Is that a proper description on the looks of ordinary Frisian folks? 82.73.79.82 14:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Hard to say. Though I can tell from my own travels to various parts of Europe, Frisians in general are taller than most people in other countries.
SietseM (talk) 21:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

These types of sweeping generalisations about looks have little basis in fact and have no place in this article. Yes there are plenty of Frisians that are blond and tall but there are plenty of dark haired Frisians of average height.--Pytter (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

religion[edit]

User:Bloodofox put in this

rels= Indigenously Germanic paganism, later forcefully Christianized into Protestant Christian

This is too much detail for the info box, and they were probably converted into catholicism not Protestantism, only later changing, not necessarily by force! Graeme Bartlett 23:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats right. Btw, thanks for refering the statement, whoever might have done that. -The Bold Guy- 12:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Coon reference[edit]

Some people here want to cite a book (published 1939) by Carleton Coon as a valid source. He may have been a reputable anthropologist for some while, but was very much proven wrong on every point in his later day. (see his article) With that in mind and given that the source is over 65 years old, yet wants to portray the claim as fully up to date ... I really think we should drop it.Rex (talk) 10:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You can't just drop sourced information. You could try to prove a statement wrong by finding sources that forward another view, for instance saying Frisians have always been predominantly short of statue and dark. Or you could try to find other research to support the statement. Whatever the current anthropological status of Coon, he was contemporary to Frisians and as such counts as a historical source. The source was inserted because somebody once contested the Frisians to be of this specific physical description, and whether or not you might agree this was a silly thing to do, please don't invalidate the statement by recurring to a personal point of view concerning the validity of this particular observation of Coon. He might have been wrong in other approaches, this is a far way though from the invalidity of his empirical observations. The description of Frisians being tall and blond go back to Roman times. You might come forward with superior modern sources, or dedicate a new seccion to contrary views, however, I repeat, there is no reason to drop sourced information. Morover, this would be vandalism. Rokus01 (talk) 11:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

"The man who wrote it also said the 'white race' was a mix of neantherthals and Homo sapients" This discussion is not at all out of date. Please discuss this in the Neanderthal article. Rokus01 (talk) 12:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

How am I dropping sourced information? I don't think the information is sourced at all. Nor do I see, in any way, how this is vandalism. The book is far to out of date to be presented as fact today. Also, linking the Roman 'Frisii' to today is also quite daring don't you think?Rex (talk) 12:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Please don't try to push your personal point of view. Coon is a reputable anthropologists and his work is valuable, no matter what your POV would be. This is getting very boring. If you want to make a statement, please come up with sourced evidence. To start with, anybody that know Frisia would know the statement does not have to be sourced at all. Obviously you don't know Frisia and still you don't bother sources to refresh your opinions. Rokus01 (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you get it. Coon is dead, and on many fronts discredited. Recap for a moment. A reference from 1939. Get real.Rex (talk) 22:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't seem to get that all of this is your personal view. Please check WP:NPOV and WP:Verify before we go any further on this. Rokus01 (talk) 22:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not me who discredited Coon. You seem so obsesses with NPOV, but really, with this source I wonder who's most trustworthy. Antropology in the early 20th century isn't generally counted among the most objective literature of the field. (That's sarcasm btw). Anyway, if you are unwilling to comply in any way, then I see no other option then to take this matter to other wikipedia institutions.Rex (talk) 09:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

According to my research you are on probation concerning Germanic issues: Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard/Archive14#Rex_Germanus.C2.A0 Rokus01 (talk) 06:55, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rex Germanus that Coon might not be a good scientific source for the statement that Frisians are often tall and blond. Better, newer and more scientific evidence on this (obviously true) statement might be around. Krastain (talk) 06:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Since the statement needs to be sourced and there's nothing wrong with Coon, just removing the sourced reference is no option. It would be very interesting to know some more references, though, and very constructive to find them for us before doing anything else.Rokus01 (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I just stumbled upon this page and was also surprised to see a reference from 1939 in the introduction. It may be a source, but it is a poor one. I agree that one should try to find a more up-to-date source that makes the same point. Rokus01 seems to be a very vocal minority here.88.74.198.130 (talk) 00:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur - I find it very odd to see this quote from Coon - I presume from the "The Races of Europe, The White Race and the New World (1939)" Also Rokus01 stating that Coon was a contemporary of the Frisians is no argument at all - so are you and I as the Frisians still exist. Racial stereotyping is totally out of date and has no place in a serious article. --Pytter (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick-failed "good article" nomination[edit]

Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA process, any article with cleanup or expansion banners - such as the one in Friesland in the Middle Ages - must be failed immediately and does not require an in-depth review. Please address any issues brought up by such banners and remove them before renominating. There also seems to be an on-going content dispute (above thread). Please note that instability is also a quick-fail issue. If you feel this decision was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky Talk 18:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction with Old Frisian[edit]

This article says,

Tacitus wrote a treatise about the Germanic peoples in 69, describing the habits of the Germanic people, as well as listing numerous tribes by name. [8] Of the many tribes he mentioned, the name 'Frisii' is the only one still in use to refer unequivocally to the same ethnic group. [9]

But [[Old Frisian]] says,

Their ancient homes were originally North Germany and Denmark. The language of the earlier inhabitants of the region (the Frisians famously mentioned by Tacitus) is not attested.

This should be sorted out.
RuakhTALK 14:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Both references point to i-friesland.com. I don't know how reliable that website is, but I doubt that it can support an extraordinary claim like "the only one still in use to refer unequivocally to the same ethnic group" by itself. It only means that Andrea Mouloud or Punzy Press believe that it is true, perhaps for good reasons, but in that case it would be better to cite those good reasons. Erik Warmelink (talk) 17:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

What do the Frisians call themselves?[edit]

What do the Frisians call themselves in their language? 76.119.245.141 (talk) 00:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Depends on language and dialect, e.g. Friezen, Fresen, Fräisen, Frasche, Freske, Friiske... Frisia (talk) 21:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


Frisian Law[edit]

Sorry but wasn't the Frisian rights supposedly given by Charlemagne to the Frisian people a hoax staged by the ones who wrote the Frisian Law in the 12th Century? Not unlike the 'Gift of Constantine'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.148.36.113 (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And your source for this statement is? --Pytter (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, he doesn't need to source his statement, the statement that Charlemagne gave the Frisians rights should be sourced.Krastain (talk) 00:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure but I think Charles the Fat seems to be the real one, who gave the privileges to the Frisians. But in legend it was Charlemagne. But I don't have any sources nearby, I just remember reading it somewehre. Frisia (talk) 18:45, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Source of a Source[edit]

Not sure what Wikipedia says about this, but I was intrigued enough by the "Frisian being the closest living language to English" statement (as I heard it long ago and always remembered it) to check the source. The source however isn't about language, but using DNA markers to track ancient migration. The statement about languages is a passing reference, sourced itself to

Nielsen H. F., 1985 Old English and the continental Germanic languages: a survey of morphological and phonological interrelations 2nd edition. Institut für Sprachwissenschaft der Universität Innsbruck, Innsbruck

Should we be using this direct source instead for the statement in the article? I've made no changes. 217.166.94.1 (talk) 14:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

This article is about the people, but certainly the source used for a statement should support the statement. And the language similarity should have a ref. Although is this the best ref? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Well the current source is fine for any statement re migration of Frisians in the history section. But I don't have access to the sourced source (Nielsen re language) so I can't check it to verify that the DNA-article writer didn't make a mistake. If anyone can get an online copy of that source I think we could switch that for the other (and find a place for the current source, it can be citation for plenty other facts in the article). 217.166.94.1 (talk) 10:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed Frisian is part of the same Germanic language branch as English but this does not necessarily equate to a genetic closeness. After all The French, Spanish all Portuguese all speak a language based on Latin but are in most cases not a genetic close match to peoples currently living in Rome! However, there is evidence of a genetic closeness between Frisians and East/ Middle England - for example see "Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration" Michael E. Weale,1, Deborah A. Weiss,1, Rolf F. Jager, Neil Bradman and Mark G. Thomas However, I would like to point out that the current section on Y-DNA is of very poor standard, not citing any sources, making erroneous, sweeping genetic statements (there is no one DNA type for Frisian ancestry there has been too much historic immigration prior to the birth record for there to be clarity on this) and includes a reference to a commercial DNA testing site that has no link to the point being made.--Pytter (talk) 20:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Peter Stuyvesant[edit]

Was he really Frisian? He was born in Peperga. The dialect spoken there is a Low Saxon one. (Pindanl (talk) 21:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC))

Notable Frisians[edit]

I think it is time we made a separate List of notable Frisians out of that. The current listing only clutters this article and there are some names that may need further reference to proof any Frisian origin. Judging from the names of emigrants to the Americas is close to OR, even though West Frisian family names are quite unique and will be recognized by those in the know. Therefore I suggest to split this section off to a new list article with references and keep only, say, two or three notables per century over here. De728631 (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

South Frisian[edit]

Why there is no such way for South Frisian--68.185.9.3 (talk) 02:16, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Because there are no South Frisian people there is also no such language group. There were no permanent settlements of Frisian people further south than modern (West) Friesland and East Frisia or Saterland, so the distinction between West, East and North Frisian languages was apparently always sufficient. Geographically one could arguably group East and West Frisian into a southern group as opposed to North Frisian but to my knowledge this has never been done by linguists. De728631 (talk) 11:11, 27 November 2014 (UTC)