Talk:Funeral of Pope John Paul II

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Due to the length of this talk page, older threads were moved to archive pages:

Why does this article exist?![edit]

This article should obviously be on Wikinews. Wikipedia is not a new site. So why is it here?→Raul654 13:20, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

This was an instance where a news story accrued such an immense historical significance (the largest single pilgrimage of people in the history of the world) that it warranted its own Wikipedia article. You may notice that this article was originally a subsection of the Pope John Paul II article, where a link to the related Wikinews article is also found. --Gerald Farinas 13:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I concur with Farinas, this is an historic event and warrants a Wikipedia article - it is about the largest gathering of world leaders ever. It is now far too good, informative, encyclopaedic, and NPOV to move - --Oldak Quill 13:55, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In my case, this is a "once in a lifetime" event -- at least so far... Great article about a fascinating topic. --Chiacomo
This is indeed an historical event directly affecting nearly one billion people, rather than a newsworthy incident. --Taxrelief

Strange how I've had a turnaround on this issue. I was one of the earliest people arguing for something like a Wikinews. It wasn't long after 9/11 and I didn't think all the massive detail about that event merited inclusion in an encyclopedia. I feel the opposite now. One of Wikipedia's great strengths is going to be the almost insane level of detail on just about everything no matter how small or temporary. After a while the project will become something quite apart from a Britannica-style encyclopedia. It will be a massive compendium of almost everything in space and time publicly noteworthy in even the tiniest way, and this will be a distinguishing feature that no other published work, private or governmental, will come close to matching. So, we should encourage as much detail about as many things as possible. It might not be a bad idea to segregate certain things into Wikinews and then generously link between Wikipedia and Wikinews. But something tells me we will reach a point when Wikipedia will need to stop being promoted as an encyclopedia. It will need a new word. And that newly christened project will bring together Wikipedia, Wikinews and probably others. We can impose an artificial separation now by putting stuff like this article into Wikinews, but perhaps it's better to start thinking of what to call this new omni-compendium, because that's where it's all going (they will above all need to be tied under a common search engine). JDG 18:09, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Which Creed[edit]

The article mentions that the Nicene Creed was recited rather than the Apostle's Creed. I don't know if this is worldwide but in the US Catholic church the Nicene Creed is the standard creed recited at each Mass. The Apostles Creed is used on special occasions, particularly Masses with a large percentage of children in attendence, and when beginning the Rosary.

Maybe it has to do with the Pope being the succesor of the Apostles? (Alphaboi867 03:19, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC))
In the Philippines, we usually use the Apostle's Creed during mass, and the Nicene Creed on certain special occasions. I've heard mass in some other churches in Asia and the Apostle's Creed is what is usually used. --Ronaldo Guevara 11:50, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
CBS News and ABC News coverage explained it was the Nicene Creed recited, as opposed to the Apostle's Creed. --Gerald Farinas 04:57, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Nicene Creed is the normative creed used at Catholic Mass (Sundays, Solemnities, and other special occasions). The Apostles' Creed may only used for pastoral reasons.
Be that as it may in theory, many parishes, rightly or wrongly, use the Nicene Creed only occasionally. Carolynparrishfan 18:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Nicene Creed is always used at Anglican communion services. The Apostles Creed is used at Matins, etc Bill Tegner 07:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sound recording[edit]

Can we find a sound recording (preferably in mp3) of the funeral, or at least the mass of requiem and Cardinal Ratzinger's speech?

C*Span is selling DVDs of the entire funeral -- six hours' worth of coverage. I find it hard to believe there won't also be a CD. In any case you should be able to do an audio capture. Myself, I want the Eastern Rite's chants. --Bluejay Young 06:41, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)b
I have personally taped the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation live news special coverage broadcast of the funeral in its entirety. The program wasn't 6 hours long, lasted half an hour before the possession emerges from the Basilica till shortly after the funeral party re-entered the Basilica for the burial. It has less of the extra talk and commentary that CNN offers. I have also downloaded a official copy of the funeral mass in PDF format. This includes the original text in Latin, Greek and other languages used in the ceremony and corresponding Italian translation. --Kvasir 11:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Deacon nationality[edit]

I've amended "An American deacon, Paul Moss, began by singing, "The Gospel according to John."" - according to the RC Archbishop of Birmingham, UK, commentating on the BBC TV coverage, Moss is English, and he will be ordaining Paul Moss next July and he will be working in the Birmingham archdiocese. -- Arwel 01:15, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The reason I wrote American was that both CBS News and ABC News coverage said he was an American. I guess they were mistaken? --Gerald Farinas 04:43, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Heh, typical for not checking their sources. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation live broadcast commented Moss correctly as an "English" deacon. --Kvasir 12:01, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Novemdiales[edit]

Does anyone have a list of the cardinals presiding over the novembiales masses, the dates they presided and the churches they hosted the masses? --Gerald Farinas 04:41, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've changed "novembiales" to "novemdiales," if only because google returned some 3600 hits on the latter and zero on the former. =P Seriously, though, I'm rather certain it is novemdiales, but correct me if I'm wrong. --User:Jenmoa 04:59, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That makes better sense: novem = nine, diales = days. --Gerald Farinas 05:01, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Religious Leaders[edit]

How about listing leaders from diffrent religions who attended the funeral? --Jojit fb 04:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see that! I want to know who the Eastern Rite gentlemen were and what were the chants they sang. --Bluejay Young 06:42, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
The commentary from the broadcast I watched said the liturgy of the Eastern Rite was conducted in Greek. The official funeral programme I downloaded confirmed this. From their costumes and their look, I'm guessing they at least represented the Eastern Churches in Ethiopia, Greece, Syria etc.. I am almost certain that they are patriachs of each of their Churches. These Churches are in communion with the Western/Roman Catholic Church based in Rome. I'm not sure if the Russian Orthodox Patriach was present, whose Church did not allow a visit of JPII. Unfortunately the programme doesn't say which person presides over which part of the ceremony. It's a shame I haven't seen any report with much knowledge of who these patriachs are. --Kvasir 11:54, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Eastern Rite Leaders and Their Ceremony[edit]

I know that it was a Panahida ceremony, and that one of the things they said was Christos Anesti, Christ has risen. Archbishop John Patrick Foley, the Vatican communications office translator, said they were saying Eternal Memory, but in fact that chant cannot be used during Easter season. It should go in the article, but I can't find very much about it! --Bluejay Young 07:52, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)--

I've downloaded the official programme of the funeral in PDF format. It provides the Greek text and the name of the liturgy in its entirety with Italian translation. Unfortunately I am not proficient in neither languages.--Kvasir 11:57, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The text says: "After the singing of the Litany of the Saints, the patriarchs, archbishops and metropolitans of the Eastern Churches, including those not in full communion with the Holy See, approached the coffin of Pope John Paul II for their own rituals of commendation and farewell." Is this correct? I recognized them all as Catholics. In other words, these were the leaders of Eastern churches in communion with the Holy See. The Orthodox delegates watched from a distance. Dakno 02:16, 31 December 2006

Cardinals[edit]

The reason for the disputed number of cardinals present at the Mass of Requiem ("the number of members present has been variously given as 157 and 164" someone added to the text of the article) is that some people don't count the Eastern Rite patriarchs, some of whom are actually members of the College of Cardinals, too. --Gerald Farinas 15:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

that tapestry[edit]

Does anyone have any info on that huge tapestry of the Resurrection (or maybe it was the Ascension) which hung above the main doors of St. Peter's during the funeral? 25 years ago American news would have been sure to research and share the name of the artist, medium (dyed cotton yarn on linen backing or whatever), date of composition, etc.,., but you won't get that kind of thing now from Anderson Cooper, Brian Williams et. al. and friends. Please throw this info into the article if you have it. JDG 18:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Article movement[edit]

I was surprised to see this entire article moved from Funeral of Pope John Paul II to Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II without discussion on this talk page. Because there was no discussion, I am reverting it to its original article title. Please discuss your reasons here before making such drastic moves. --Gerald Farinas 03:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I oppose the move for several reasons: (1) There was no discussion of the move. Also, I believe that (2) the death of Pope John Paul II is a separate event and therefore separate subject from the funeral of Pope John Paul II. We're highlighting the funeral separate from the event of death because the funeral, standing on its own, has extreme significance being the largest single pilgrimage in the history of Christianity if not the world. The death of Pope John Paul carries its own baggage that shouldn't be detailed here but rather in a separate article or in the main Pope John Paul II article. The two subjects are so intricate and carry so much baggage on their own that they shouldn't be combined. --Gerald Farinas 03:50, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also oppose the move. The death article should detail on the Pope's suffering and its significance, and the funeral article should be more about the pilgrimages and ceremonies around the funeral. Bratschetalk random 04:08, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
I also oppose move. JDG 06:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also oppose move. --Chiacomo 14:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Supposed official nature of "the Great"[edit]

I don't believe this sentence is correct (referring to Pope John Paul II being referred to as the Great):

While the appellation [of "the Great"] was omitted from the spoken homily, under Vatican rules, what members of the College of Cardinals write during the interregnum is deemed official.

I am unaware of any Vatican rules giving individual members of the college such authority. I am aware, under Universi Dominici Gregis, that during the interregnum only the sacred college as a college has such authority, and even then they are restricted, both in Universi and in canon 335 of the 1983 code, to no innovation sede vacante. Thus, I will remove the sentence until a source can be provided. Pmadrid 00:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

pall bearers[edit]

Pall bears are chosen (or selected if you prefer), but aren't consecrated. In Catholicism, only objects (altars for example) or people are consecrated (consecrated life). Both suggest a PERMANENT reality, not a temporary one. DaveTroy 12:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Delisted GA[edit]

This article did not go through the current GAN nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. --RelHistBuff 10:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Choice of Images[edit]

There are three images included in this article of visiting delegates from the US. This clearly isn't representative of those present. I suggest that two of these be substituted with images of delegates from other countries.

Numbers Watching Funeral[edit]

It might have been "thought [by some] that billions watched the funeral", but I was in Australia at the time, and the viewing figures were a lot less than expected. Generally there was an air of media-hype. When the Pope died they were talking about the world's "one billion Catholics". Within two weeks that had become "1.4 billion practicing Catholics". Bill Tegner 07:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I was in Canada at the time and I seem to remember the funeral was on every other channel, including CNN. There is not a shadow of a doubt that much more than 1.4 million people watched it. 66.130.156.84 05:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Funeral of Winston Churchill[edit]

Pope John Paul's funeral brought together the single largest gathering of heads of state in history, surpassing the funeral of Winston Churchill.

Per Talk:Honours of Winston Churchill#Please check this citation Majoreditor pointed out that there is no confirmation to that statement. Did you just copy from there, or might you give your own sources? FloK 11:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

corpse[edit]

I think that picture blaring right at the top of the article is offensive and unecessary! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.76.211 (talk) 05:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

move the page to Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II[edit]

The page Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II is currently redirecting to this page, but I propose of moving this page into Death and funeral of Pope John Paul II. Both topics are similar in nature (it deals with Death), and besides, it can enable editors to shorten the article John Paul II and move it here, as it is considered too long. There is article with similar title: Death and funeral of Richard Nixon. w.tanoto-soegiri (talk) 20:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

exhumed - makes no sense[edit]

"The body of Pope John Paul II was exhumed first in the Papal Residence and venerated by the Clergy before a procession, after which it was placed in St. Peter's Basilica; The Swiss Guard remained always beside the body while it was exhumed. "

Exhumed, in english, means dug up from the grave. That meaning seems to make no sense here.Eregli bob (talk) 03:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

2 billion viewers?[edit]

The text states that 2 billion viewers watched the funeral of Pope John Paul II on TV. That's like in many cases of big events - the numbers of viewers are grossly exaggerated. I suppose that a very considerabloe number of Roman Catholics may have watched but the interest among the other Christian denominations and among other religions was very likely not as big. In addition, the funeral took place at 10:OO CET, that's 4:00 a.m. Eastern Time or 1:00 a.m. for Pacific Time when people could be expected mostly to be asleep, and for Europe it was during work hours when many people did not have time to watch. I think that "2 billion viewers" are unrealistic and exaggerated. Anyway, no source for this figure is given. --Maxl (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)