Talk:Dog meat

Citation from "kmbase.medric.or.kr"

Hello! I noticed that this article, http://kmbase.medric.or.kr/Main.aspx?d=KMBASE&m=VIEW&i=0665219990120040397, seems to have attracted some attention by editors of this article recently. This fact makes me very happy, as I am very interested in it because it is the only peer-reviewed paper from Korea that I have been able to find which not only seems to confirm the existence of the Nureongi, an animal known to Wikipedia thus far only through one paper from Cambridge University and a series of tangental mentions in WP:RS newspaper articles, but also hints that extensive details about the dog may lie within. Frustratingly however, I unfortunately can't access any more than the abstract and don't read Korean anyway, so I have to rely on the English translation of the summary, which is tantalizingly short and which seems imperfect to me, especially the questionable choice of the word "exceptional". So I haven't been able to use it. But from what I can tell, there is a good chance Wikipedia could finally learn some more details about this dog from this, because the English summary seems to describe an article that has a good chance of containing at least a few facts about and description of this dog. I'm most interested in learning more about this dog for the benefit of the article Nureongi, but it seems reasonable that this article and the article dog meat consumption in South Korea could benefit from a frank factual study of this matter from a Korean point of view. Any thoughts, suggestions, or help with regard to this matter are solicited. Chrisrus (talk) 03:16, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You can find a full text version of the article at the author's web site. Be sure to set encoding to "Korean". Unfortunately there is no mention of Nureongi in that article. The author is an "exceptional" advocate of dog eating in South Korea. The disputed word "exceptional" seems to be a simple error of translation and it is more appropriate to say "separate breed". ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

AFACT, the Korean word 별도 was translated as "exceptional" in the cited source, and a better translation of that word would have been "separate". Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Why we should not call the Nureongi a "Mixed-breed dog" anymore

This article should reconsider calling the Nureongi "a mixed-breed dog". Please have a look at the article mixed-breed dog. If you read that article, you will see that the term is a very vague one, and many of it's referents do not describe the dog, including the most obvious, "a dog which is a literally a mix of breeds". We had a discussion at the article Nureongi which I am about to show you. The consensus there was, after careful consideration, to go with the term "landrace," but if you read this thread I am about to show you can find other options and some of their pros and cons. Here it is:Talk:Nureongi#What_we_shouldn.27t_call_this_referent.

Please look at this picture, which happens to be from an anti-dog meat site, but please ignore that POV or your own POV and just look at this dog as a dog. [1]. There are many such pictures where that came from, alongside other photos that prove that simply most, not all, dogs farmed for meat in Korea are Nureongi.

With that image in your mind so you can see what we're talking about, please read this paper, which should be used as reference for this article as it's everything a WP:RS should be: [2]. Please see that this is not a mix of breeds, and the term "mixed breed" implies that it is a mix of breeds and therefore for this article to call it "a mixed-breed dog" is misleading the reader. Chrisrus (talk) 06:49, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I only just skimmed through the first half of that source, and it is excellent--a scholarly source (not very high impact, but okay for the field), very specific with specific analysis. I've gone ahead and changed the phrasing in the article; also, we should mine the heck out that source for more data; I'll add it to my to-do list but others are more than welcome to do so as well. Sorry it took so long to respond...Qwyrxian (talk) 23:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the japan section

Apparently the references for my previous edits did not meet the reliable sources guidelines, I have tried to fix it up and have provided a complete translation of a news bit posted on Livedoor, a publicly traded company that runs a number of businesses and I would say should qualify as a reliable source. I have also translated the original post from the official twitter account of the TV program Tokudane! (www.fujitv.co.jp/tokudane/ JP wiki: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/情報プレゼンター_とくダネ!). I realize there is ongoing racial strife between japanese and koreans living in japan and this is just one facet of it, so it is easy to assume that someone editing this article has a bias one way or the other. So I don't ask that you believe my translation, but atleast get a few other people knowledgeable in japanese, preferably someone who has lived/lives in japan to verify things before you dismiss it outright. I am not japanese myself, but I have lived in japan for a few years and I will admit to having a bias against the consumption of dog meat, whaling and dolphin hunting. But that has nothing to do with my edits, which I believe are reliable. I will say that the japanese section is at best uninformative, and at worst seems to attempt to have the reader believe that there is just a small population in japan that eats it and there is nothing more to it than that, which could not be farther from the truth. The truth is the consumption of dog meat in japan is associated with the zainichi korean presence, even if it is politically incorrect to say so, either here or in japan. It is true and maybe should be noted in some way that much of the criticism that comes with it also seems to have a tinge of anti korean sentiment. Anyway, here is what I have translated:

Tokudane! official twitter account post on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/5kil4w): [今日は在日コリアンの方々に招待されて食事をしてきました。その名も「ポシンタン（犬鍋）の集い」。日本人の方々には馴染みがなくドキっとしますが朝鮮半島ではごちそうです。臭みがなくスタミナがつく食べ物として好まれています。私も愛犬家ですが、ポシンタンには目がありません。３杯もおかわりしてしまいました。これで夏バテをのり越えられそうです。

Today I was invited over by some zainichi koreans to eat. The name of the group is 'bosintang gathering'. Japanese are not familiar with this and will find it shocking, but it is eaten in korea. It is liked for it's lack of a bad smell and the stamina it provides. I love dogs, but I liked bosintang. I had 3 servings. With this I feel I can beat the summer heat.]

News article from Livedoor (http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/5740602/): [フジテレビ人気番組とくダネ！スタッフが犬肉の美味さをTwitterで熱弁「私は日本人ですが犬肉は大好きです」

Popular Fuji TV program Tokudane! staff member gives fervent speech over the splendid taste of dog meat: "I am a japanese, however I like dog meat."

フジテレビお昼の人気番組『笑っていいとも！』の調査で、日本でも居酒屋などでよく提供されている「キムチ鍋」が全年代で好きな鍋1位を獲得したことは記憶に新しい。

The survey by the Fuji TV's popular program "It's okay to laugh!" that kimchi nabe/soup commonly found in pubs is the number 1 soup is still fresh in the mind.

一部ではその説にテレビ局の韓流ゴリ押しによるヤラセではないかと異論を唱える人もおり、インターネットテレビ番組が調査をするなど、テレビだけでなくネット上でもその話題で持ちきりとなることもあった。

There were some who thought it was the TV station pushing korean culture by doing a fake survey, and it was taken up by internet TV programs and was talked about throughout the internet.

その番組の調査も最終的には笑っていいとも！の調査とほぼ同じとなり、捏造ではないという結果に至ったが、別番組の『とくダネ！』Twitter担当スタッフは韓国にかなり造詣の深い人物のようで、韓国料理「ポシンタン（犬鍋）」を在日コリアンの方たちと食事するなど、見る限りとても親密な関係のようだ。

The program that conducted a seperate survey eventually came to the same conclusion as Fuji TV. A staff member from a different program called Tokudane! charged with running the official twitter account seems to have a deep knowledge of korea, eating the korean food 'bosintang' (dog soup) with zainichi koreans, displaying a very intimate relationship.

実際にポシンタンやタンゴギ（犬肉の蒸し物）を食べた感想や写真を画像投稿サイトTwitpicへ投稿し、「食文化が欧米化してきたのでしょうね。ちなみに私は日本人ですが犬肉は大好きです。「野蛮だ」「野蛮じゃない」という議論をするつもりは全くありません。」（Twitterより引用）と、韓国の食の欧米化や、他国からの犬肉食非難に対することについてもコメントを残している。

Actually posting pictures and impressions of foods like bosintang and tangogi (steamed dog meat) to Twitpic, stating "Food culture seems to have become westernized. By the way, I am japanese however I like dog meat. I'm not interested in engaging in debate over whether it is uncivilized or not.", leaving comments about the westernization of korean food and criticism from other countries over dog meat consumption.

しかしそれでも他の日本人Twitterユーザーのなかには、自称愛犬家である彼が犬肉を食べていることについて快く思わない人もいるようで、以下のようなつぶやきが寄せられていた。

However other japanese twitter uers are unhappy over a self styled dog lover eating dog and left comments such as these:

「愛犬家が犬を食らい、愛犬画像の上に犬料理の画像が･･･」 「愛犬家で犬食べるの？はぁ？」 「とくダネさんよお・・・」

"A dog enthusiast that eats a dog, with a picture of cooked dog placed over a picture of his pet dog..." "A dog enthusiast that eats dog? What?" "Come on, tokudane-san..."

犬を飼っている人や好きな人は、もちろん犬の肉を食べることについては抵抗がある人が多いだろう。とくダネ！スタッフが犬肉が好きで美味さを広めたい気持ちもわかるが、犬肉食に抵抗のある人が多い日本でそれをやるのはあまり好ましいことでは無い。例えばオーストラリアで「鯨やイルカの肉が美味い！」と言ったら、多数の人が良い顔をしないのと一緒ではないだろうか。

Naturally there are many people who like dogs or have a pet dog and will be resistant to eating dog meat. I understand that the Tokudane! staff member likes dog meat and might want to propagate it, but it not something that is desirable for japan which has a lot of resistance to the consumption of dog meat. It is comparible to someone saying that whale or dolphin is delicious in Australia, there are not many people who would be happy after hearing that.

食文化だけでなくそういった他に受け入れられづらいその国独特の文化については、無理に啓蒙をせずに静かに嗜むのが一番良い選択肢なのかもしれない。何もしなくても調査捕鯨船に攻撃を仕掛ける、無粋な輩に対しては断固とした態度を取る必要があるのかもしれないが……。

Concerning not only food culture, but other unique culture characteristics that may be hard to accept, it may be that quietly enjoying it might be more better than unreasonably trying to spread it. However, it may also be that we need to make a resolute stand against those boorish fellows who feel the need to attack the whaling ships....]

So I have presented my case, if you still find fault then I will not argue any further. I trust in the ability of wikipedia editors and I simply do not have the time to devote to stuff like this, which I say with much regret as I greatly appreciate the service that wikipedia provides. I invite you to use the Rikai-kun plugin for chrome or firefox, or Jim Breen's WWWJDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html) to go through my translation if you wish, although both will not provide an understanding of japanese grammatical structure. Good bye, and thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.170.103 (talk) 05:41, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Several problems. First, I'm not sure if Tokudane is a reliable source per WP:RS; I'll check with some native speakers later. Second, even if it is. the entire summary of this is "One staff member of Tokudane tried dog meat with some Zainichi. He liked it. The show surveyed a bunch of people, some who said they wouldn't. Some people even compared it to the whole whaling issue." In other words, all I see is a bunch of opinions of individual Japanese people. To me, that doesn't meet WP:DUE which is part of our policy on neutrality, which says that we can't include opinions unless those opinions have due weight. So, the opinions of random Japanese aren't particularly relevant. Maybe, just maybe, a well-conducted nationwide survey of Japanese people on the issue might be useful, or the opinion of an "expert" (legal, culinary, historical, cultural, etc.) might be relevant, but not those of random people. The Twitter comments are especially UNDUE. Oh, finally, Livedoor is a big Japanese company; however, its definitely not a reliable source--it's just a web host/internet service provider, not a news company. Even Wikipedia doesn't count as a reliable source, for much the same reasons. As always, though, other input is requested--maybe there's some nugget of useful info in there somewhere that I missed. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. A few things, Livedoor is very much a news company, see http://news.livedoor.com/. You could maybe compare it to AOL in this regard. Second, Tokudane! is a weekday morning news program that has aired since 1999 on a major TV network (Fuji TV). I'm not exactly sure what the criteria for a reliable source is, but I would think this would qualify it as such. Also, the news article posted on livedoor was the thing that compared this to the whaling issue, not the survey (which only concerned kimchi nabe). It was mentioned at the beginning of the livedoor article to put in context this particular issue with the wider one of the perception that many japanese have that Fuji TV likes to promote korean culture, right or wrong as that may be. Maybe my translation did not make these things apparent, I apologize for that. The twitter comments are translated from the livedoor article, which posted them as an example of some of the reactions (while avoiding posting some of the more nasty ones). In my edit I did not attempt to attach them to the article, only mention the controversy this caused as reported in the livedoor article. I will place my edit here (edited slightly to add links to the english wikipedia page for tokudane!) for reference:

There was some controversy when a staff member from Fuji TV news program Tokudane! uploaded a picture of bosintang onto Twitpic and wrote "Today I was invited over by some zainichi koreans to eat. The name of the group is 'bosintang gathering'. Japanese are not familiar with this and will find it shocking, but it is eaten in korea".

I think it is a reasonable edit that adds information that is presently lacking about the perception of the consumption of dog meat in japan although it might be good to add information about the controversy, not just mention that there was controversy. Regardless, thank you for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.161.228 (talk) 15:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Posting again here to mention that the twitpic post was posted on the official twitter account for the TV program Tokudane!, which is why it became news. The way I mentioned it above could be misinterpreted as it being posted on some staff members personal account, which is not the case. Many companies and politicians have official twitter accounts, which they use to disseminate information or link to press releases and such (for example: http://twitter.com/#!/prmaine). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.161.228 (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Two problems: first I checked with some native speakers, and Tokudane isn't a reliable source--it's not a news program; rather, like Asatusba or the other morning shows its a talk show that sometimes covers the news, but not in a way WP would consider reliable, primarily because they mix news and fact. But even if we considered it a reliable source, your sentence as written is simply wrong, and points to the very problem underlying this. You say "There was some controversy"...but, in fact, it was just a news store wholly manufacted by Tokudane. This was not a big issue covered in the newspaper, or on national TV. Its a minor story, the inclusion of which would violate WP:UNDUE. Of course, this is all my opinion; I'm sure that eventually someone else who watches the page will chime in; if others think it's important, I'm more than willing to accept consensus to include it. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I haven't been keeping up with this, but it seems like my edits may have only had a negative effect on this article (at least in regards to the japan section). Anyway, I've reverted the japan section back to how it was before I ever edited it in the first place. As it is now, "Japan imported 5 tons of dog meat from China compared to 4,717 tons of beef, 14,340 tons of pork and 115,882 tons of poultry for Korean town and China town." is obviously absurd and the source supports no such conclusion. I realize topics such as these attract heavily opinionated/nationalistic views and I probably should have thought about my edits more if it would only result in a worse article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.167.106 (talk) 12:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Section on Austria

You say that dogs were eaten in Saxony, which is not in Austria but in Germany. The source material you cite, it confusingly talks about things happening in both countries, so it was an easy mistake to make. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chef.hagen (talk • contribs) 09:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I rechecked the source, and see that the Saxony section is definitely separate from the Austria section. I decided to just change the section title from "Austria" to "Saxony", since that is more accurately what the article says (and doesn't get into the complexity of how old kingdoms map onto present day ones). However, if others think Germany is better, that's fine by me. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:23, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Qwyrxian's edit

Qwyrxian changed "China mainland" to "People's Republic of China" and "Taiwan China" to "Republic of China". However the description is not about the political states but rather geographical areas. Apparently "People's Republic of China" didn't exist around 500 BC. The title should be "Mainland China", "Hongkong" and "Taiwan". ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh...Okay, my mistake, I'll revert. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:21, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

NYT report on a journal paper about the role of dogmeat in the evolution of the dog

I thought you all might be able to use this to improve this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/science/08dogs.html?scp=1&sq=nicholas%20wade%20dog*%20china&st=cse — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus (talk • contribs)

Thanks. For the time being, I've put it into the China section. Doing so reminded me that, somewhere around a year ago, I wanted to completely reorganize this article so that it wasn't just a by country set-up--that really doesn't seem like the logical way to organize an article about a type of meat. But, alas, I'm not sure of the right way. Maybe I'll get the initiative at some point. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)