Talk:Ganges

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Former good article nominee Ganges was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
July 10, 2012 Good article nominee Not listed
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Name of the river[edit]

yet another proposal to move the article, without any new arguments -sche (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sorry, this is not resolved yet. This article uses Indian English (see above), and the name of the said river in Indian English, is Ganga, not Ganges. English usage in Japan doesn't refer to their country as Nippon, but English usage in India refers to this river as Ganga.

The pages on US Cities for example, lists its statistics like total area in square miles, rather than in square kilometres, to be consistent with American English usage. The same rule applies here as well with Indian English. Fgpilot (talk) 11:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

This is resolved. There is no defined "Indian English", "Ganges" is used in India, and everyone else uses it as well; we use it perWP:COMMONALITY and long-standing consensus. You can keep bringing it up, but that's just a waste of everyone's time. —kwami (talk) 22:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Indian English is defined and and acknowledged above in this page. In contrast, there is no "long-standing consensus" that we can see on this issue. We only see threads on this issue being unilaterally closed without consensus. So rather than waste any further time of anyone, I suggest we move this page to Ganga. -- Fgpilot (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support move to Ganga: For various reasons per all the discussions on the issue so far. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Proposed rename[edit]

I've proposed renaming this article to Ganges River for consistency with other rivers at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers § Rivers of India naming. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 22:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Req: Move to Ganga[edit]

Ganges name is not used commonly anywhere in India. Even Official documents by the Govt. bear Ganga as the name. Dont know what is the problem in renaming/move.

http://india.gov.in/ http://wrmin.nic.in/index3.asp?subsublinkid=818&langid=1&sslid=327 http://uponline.up.nic.in/upsociety.aspx http://upgov.nic.in/upstateglance.aspx

I can provide hundreds of such references, links, articles which support my argument. Principal article name should be Ganga or River Ganga or Ganga River acc. to Wiki terminology with a redirect page of Ganges.WorLD8115 (TalK) 06:24, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

And what about non-Indian English sources? Have you read Talk:Ganges/Archive_5#Requested_move_.282011.29? If you have new arguments please open a formal move discussion. --NeilN talk to me 07:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Hey, if you don't mind people making fun of you for celebrating the "Marijuana River"!
But seriously, WP:RECOGNIZABLE. — kwami (talk) 07:35, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
It is one of the most popular articles, last month statistics alone have ranked it 9830 in traffic and deserves to have a better title. Here are a few non-Indian English sources-link1, link2. I would not want to open a new move discussion considering the sub-standard comments like "Marijuana River" by editors here. WorLD8115 (TalK) 13:06, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
It has the best title, as determined by current consensus. And a move request is the only way an article title is going to happen. --NeilN talk to me 15:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Making Indian, Singaporean, Hong Kong English and even instruction sheet "Engrish" coequal with the language of educated native speakers is a recipe for disaster. Chide all you want, but educated native English speakers should have the final say. Then if I attempt to contribute to Hindi or Nepali Wikipedia, the shoe is on the other foot. LADave (talk) 19:23, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
@LADave: It has little to do with educated native speakers. The reason why we have the name "Ganges" is that "Ganges" is what is preferred by reliable tertiary sources (encyclopedias, dictionaries) in the English language. When those sources start calling it, "Ganga," whether educated native speakers do or not, we'll change. It hasn't happened yet.
@World8115: Please don't provide hundreds of references. Those of us who have worked on the article, have brought it to its current level of completion, whether popular or not, are aware that it is called "Ganga" in India. It has been called "Ganga" in the English-language press in India for some 60 years now, but the common internationally recognized tertiary-source name remains "Ganges." Besides, the Ganges is a transboundary river, it is not India's alone to name. In Bangladesh different distributaries are called by different names, none of which is Ganga. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for suggestions

@ F&F: The main distributary of Ganga in Bangladesh is Padma which also is a local name in Bangladesh. I am not aware of what the encyclopedia refers Padma as. Ganga is predominantly an Indian River as majority of its length is in India. WorLD8115 (TalK) 06:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Not sure I understand your reply. Could you clarify? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:34, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
All reliable tertiary sources from across the world (so long as they are in the English language) should be examined in order to find out the predominant name of the river. Not just the countries within which the river happens to flow which is irrelevant. The majority of English-language sources still refer to the river as Ganges which you will see if you look through the archives.
As mentioned earlier, changing Ganges to Ganga will set a precedent that will result in name changes for a huge number of articles outside of the Anglosphere. Japan will change to Nippon, Germany to Deutschland, Spain to España, etc. And so many cities, regions, other geographical features and even biographies will have to change to a foreign sounding name which in the end will appease the nationalists but reduce readability and increase confusion among the users of Wikipedia. Let's not forget the geographical features situated in disputed regions of the world where two or more nations claim a particular area. If the non-Anglicised name disappears there will be constant bickering on the talk pages about which "local" language the article's name should be in. Gizza (t)(c) 11:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
@DaGizza, I'm unable to understand the second part of your argument of changing Japan to Nippon, Germany to Deutschland etc., I think these are the names in local language of the region and not in English. Whereas Ganga is used by the Indian English media, states and Govt. establishments, official documents (English) etc., And I don't understand why you are talking about disputed territories here. Cheers.
@ F&F: I replied to your argument of trans-boundary river as the main distributary of Ganga in Bangladesh is Padma and has its own article. This article is for the river system of Ganga.WorLD8115 (TalK) 07:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────There is nothing called "predominantly an Indian river." Either it lies completely within the borders of India or it doesn't, in which case, it is a transboundary river. The Ganges, in its international and geographical definition includes the Ganges Delta (and all the distributories). You may wish to pursue the question of whether an independent article is needed for Padma at Talk:Padma, but the "Ganges" is the international and geographical name of the river, the name by three to one in all reliable tertiary sources (encyclopedias and dictionaries). There is little chance that Wikipedia will change an international name on the basis of what English-language newspapers call it in the country which contains the greater length of a river's course. Britannica, for example is very clear: 'Although officially as well as popularly called the Ganga in Hindi and in other Indian languages, internationally it is known by its conventional name, the Ganges. ... For most of its course the Ganges flows through Indian territory, although its large delta in the Bengal area, which it shares with the Brahmaputra River, lies mostly in Bangladesh." As is Webster's, "Ganges River (geographical name), Hindi Ganga, River, northern India and Bangladesh." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:59, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, when the shoe is on the other foot (apropos @LADave:), all the India-centric-editors who periodically troop through here demanding a name change are strangely reticent about defending their principle: Thus the 2,880 km-long Brahmaputra river, flows some 1,600 km in China, where all the English-language newspapers call it the Yarlung Zangbo, another 900 km through India, where it is called Brahmaputra, and a final 350 km through Bangladesh, where it is called Jamuna, before it meets the Ganges. I have yet to see an India-POV editor request a page move from from the international and geographical name Brahmaputra to Yarlung Zangbo. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:39, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Because you are bringing the trans-boundary point again, I will provide few articles reference (link1, link2) where the word "Ganga" is given preference over "Ganges" or the latter is never used. These articles are from a prominent Bangladeshi newspaper in ENGLISH (Dont know why it is so difficult to understand this). The sources you provide maybe used in Wiki but you can see that every source of yours considers Ganga as a name in Hindi language. While this is most certainly true it fails to realize that Ganga is also used for referring the river in English. The logic is flawed right there. Sad to see editor such as yourself branding all Indian editors in a particular category. The name of Brahmaputra, largely a trans-boundary river also should be debated and the appropriate title to be retained as the article head. Proper naming has to be followed throughout and not only for a particular article. I did not know that Wikipedia articles are based on a "handful encyclopedias and dictionaries". I will not argue further about this and the discussion is closed from my side. Thanks for your inputs, Have a nice day. WorLD8115 (TalK) 19:02, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
@World8115: We do understand that "Ganga" is used in English-language newspapers and other publications in India. All previous page moves have made that argument. I apologize for losing my patience a little, but you have to understand that people such as I have seen this page move many times before. I have scratched my intemperate words, and I apologize again. As for Bangladesh, here are the statistics in the domain name .bd for both "Ganges" (13,200 returns and Ganga 7,000 returns. But, as I said before somewhere, even what it is called in Bangladesh is not important. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias have certain conventions, some going back hundreds of years. Wikipedia article titles policy says: "Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used." As for encyclopedia and dictionaries, as of today, some 63,000 use "Ganges", whereas approximately 18,000 use "Ganga," and many of those refer to the goddess Ganga rather than the river. I hope you appreciate this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I agree that encyclopedia and dictionaries mention it as Ganges and thus the article is named so. Still it is not the appropriate or popular usage as Google yields 3.2 million results for Ganges and 12.8 million for Ganga. Even if you accommodate half the results related to the Goddess there is an astounding difference. To confirm English language usage of Ganga in India, .in domain Google yields 7.63 million for Ganga compared to 0.42 million for Ganges. As the discussion is not only related to India but overall, in the .com domain Ganga yields 42.8 million compared to 9 million for Ganges. Again a vast difference. But as you said, wiki follows naming conventions based on encyclopedic content and not on general and popular usage in the media even though Ganga is the common name in the reliable sources, the page cannot be moved. Thanks for your patience. Have a nice day :) WorLD8115 (TalK) 03:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Doing a google search for "Ganga" (or "Ganges") and citing the number of hits Google reports doesn't really mean anything. For one, Google's estimated hits are often wildly inaccurate. Second, many of the hits are not about the river. Out of curiosity I looked at the first few pages of hits Google gave for "Ganga". I found 3 pages that were actually about the river, 2 about the Goddess, 3 religious, 6 music, 9 hotels/resorts/retreats, 5 school/studies/yoga study, 2 hospitals, 7 other companies (eg, a skateboard company), 4 personal (twitter, linkedin, etc), 2 about the word as slang (ie, marijuana), 2 festivals, and 4 not English. In other words, about 94% of the Google hits were not about the river. Pfly (talk) 19:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your point that Google search is not valid here but I only brought that up as the previous comment was based on the Google results in Ban domain. However, your argument is not entirely valid as you did not share the results of Ganges in Google most of which are also irrelevant or about hotels etc.WorLD8115 (TalK) 19:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Pfly is right. There is an easy way to remove inaccurate Google returns by doing a binary search. If you search for ("ganges river" OR "river ganges" -hotel -restaurant -goddess), i.e. exclude those links which mention "hotel," "restaurant," or "goddess," you get 3,750,000 Google links. However, a similar search for ("ganga river" OR "river ganga" -hotel -restaurant -goddess) yields 1,050,000 Google links. That seems to mirror the three to one preference for "Ganges" in the tertiary sources as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
To the objection that "river" is not used always used in references to the river, one can add "the Ganges" or "the Ganga" to the search. So a Google binary search for ("ganges river" OR "river ganges" OR "the ganges" -hotel -restaurant -goddess) yields 6,000,000 Google links, whereas the corresponding binary search ("ganga river" OR "river ganga" OR "the ganga" -hotel -restaurant -goddess) yields 1,740,000 Google links. It shows that simple (non-binary) Google searches in fact produce spurious results for "Ganga," far more often than they do for "Ganges." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:25, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
The same approach applied to the domain name .bd for Bangadesh (i.e. a Google search for: "ganges river" OR "river ganges" OR "the ganges" -hotel -restaurant -goddess site:.bd) yields 5,330 returns for "ganges", and 554 returns for "ganga". It is only in the domain name .in (India) that there are more search returns for "ganga." Thus the Google search for: ("ganges river" OR "river ganges" OR "the ganges" -hotel -restaurant -goddess site:.in) returns 68,500 links, whereas the same for "ganga" returns 76,700 links. Thus even in the domain name .in (India), the preference for "ganga" is not significantly greater. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Pollution section outdated[edit]

The article especially the pollution section is overtly outdated with references even more than 10 yrs old included as citation. FGS, do we have to explain every damn edit here in the talk page. I'm outta here. WorLD8115 (TalK) 15:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

To be "outta here" or not is your prerogative, but the references (I'm assuming you mean "overly") are not outdated, the average citation in the section being from 2010 or 2011. Also, in your recent edit "lifeline" needs an article. I'm restoring it. (Contrast "it is a lifeline to" with "it is lifeline to" Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)