Talk:Garrigue

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Wine Label[edit]

I found this on a Corbieres wine label. I take it to mean herb flavoured

True. The wine's flavor emulates the complex mix of strong-flavored plants found in garrigue. Hugo Dufort 21:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

French, Spanish, English[edit]

I would say that the French Garrigue and the Spanish tomillares are not the same. The first is typically a dense community dominated by sclerophyllous shrubs (like Quercus coccifera); the latter is typically a shorter community (and lower biomass) dominated by small-leaved low scrubs (like Thymus species). [Juli Pausas]

This article is simply a French word for an English term. It should not have an article of its own.--Burgas00 17:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

What is the English term which is the same as the French word? I can think of scrubland, heath (habitat) and chaparral. There may be others, but each seems to be a relevant only to the country of origin. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Garrigues (disambiguation)[edit]

I propose that when a person types "Garrigues" or "Garrigue" in the search box, the link go directly to the Garrigues (disambiguation) page. I made the suggestion in the Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests section, and I received this answer from User:Fluri:

The "search box" goes, by default, to the article with the exact name one types. If one types Garrigues, it takes you to the page by that name. The only way to accomplish what you describe would be to rename (move) the pages to the names you want. Firstly, you would move the Garrigues page to something like Garrigues, Spain and then move the Garrigues (disambiguation) page to Garrigues. None of this should be done, however, without posting to the talk page of both articles telling editors what you suggest doing. Only after a full discussion or, at least, providing ample opportunity for discussion, should you attempt such a move. In general, the principle is that the base name should be at the page that is most likely to be searched for. If most people entering Garrigues want the Spanish county, that should be the default but there should be a prominent {{dablink|Garrigues (disambiguation)}} at the top... — Dave (Talk | contribs) 15:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

All people interested in "Garrigues," should respond to this suggestion, preferably by going to the Discussion page at Talk:Garrigues, not here. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 20:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Many changes have been made to the Garrigues and Garrigue pages, and they will be ongoing. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

'Mixed border'[edit]

'Though they are grown under cooler, moister conditions, many shrubs and flowering perennials of the garrigue are mainstays of the English "mixed border".' What does 'mixed border' mean in this context? Is there a reference within WikiP that we can use? Is this a reference to an English garden? Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the ordinary mixed border in a temperate-zone garden that mixes herbaceous and woody plants, what other meaning could be found? Is this remark not liked? --Wetman (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of the border country of Scotland and England. Now that I have a good answer from someone who knows about such things, I can do a little editing. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 03:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Etymology[edit]

GeorgeLouis kindly notified me of this edit restoring Charlton T. Lewis' speculation in his 1907 New Latin Dictionary that garrigue and Latin quercus "oak" might be related and come from a root *kar, "hard".

Problems with this include:

First, that quercus itself comes from no such root "hard", but from Proto-Italic *kʷerkus, assimilated from Proto-Indo-European *pérkus ~ *pr̥kʷéw- (“oak”). Compare Old Norse fjǫrr, Punjabi [script needed] (pargāī, “holm oak”) wikt:quercus, also English fir and Gaulish erkos (Mallory and Adams, Oxford, Introduction, 2006)

Second, that Latin *quer- retains the same form in French, with Latin conquaerere > Vulgar Latin conquerere, Old French conquerre Mod. French conquérir "conquer". In no case does Latin *quer- develope into French gar-. Consider also Latin carus > French cher "dear".

Finally, the main claim, that the term comes instead from a non-Indoeuropean word for stone is backed up by the following overlapping lexical set from "The Pictish Language" Harold Sverdrup, p81 in Languages and Thier Speakers in Ancient Eurasia, and "Exploring Properties of the Rätic (Rhaetic) Language", ibid., p107:

  • Pictish cair
  • (proto-)Basque *karri
  • Iberian karr
  • Etruscan ceri
  • Rhaetian keri

Given that quercus < perkwos, not a root *kar-; that *quer > *gar is not attested; and that a root for stone *karri is attested, I think the reference to Lewis should be dropped as outdated and/or disproven.

See Languages and their Speakers in Ancient Eurasia Paperback – July, 2002 by Paul Sidwell (Editor), Vitaly Shevoroshkin (Editor)]
and The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (Oxford Linguistics) Paperback – November 9, 2006 by J. P. Mallory (Author), D. Q. Adams (Author)]

Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a field I'm not familiar with, but the claim is "out there," so I think it should be in the article, with a counter to it, complete with sources. If the sources are later in date and by made by more distinguished linguistic historians, well, the reader has been informed. Yours, GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The biggest problem with that is there's no link to the source, no direct quote (we don't know what he actually said), no page number, and although the point as stated is obviously false (*perkwos neither comes from or is related to any hypothetical *kar), arguing against it would be synthesis. It's certainly not a notable view or one considered worth addressing at all at this point. If anything one might justify saying a scholar (108 years out of date) suspected a connection with a root *kar, but we'd need to know what evidence he based that on, and the mention of quercus would be entirely out of place. It's like saying whales are fish, or the sun revolves around the earth at this point. I'll try to see if I can find a searchable version of the Latin dictionary. μηδείς (talk) 05:46, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
BTW, If you search inside The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World (Oxford Linguistics) for oak, on the bottom of p 160 you will see the derivation of *perkwos. μηδείς (talk) 05:50, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I've just done a search of Lewis's book, and there is no mention of garrigue or anything relevant at all, so on that basis I am removing the comment.

It turns out that I added that information myself back on 10 December 2007 at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Garrigue&diff=next&oldid=176795683. (I had to check the history to be sure.)

This is the paragraph that I added:

The word is related to quercus, the Latin word for oak, which in turn perhaps comes from an older, pre-Indo-European, root, kar, meaning to be hard. (Compare the Latin cornu calx, from which the word calculus is derived.)

I sourced it to Charlton E. Lewis’s 1907 book , A New Latin Dictionary, from which I had taken notes while I was doing research on Garrigues as a family name. Based upon what you’ve written here, I agree with you that the reference to Lewis’s theory (it was really just his guess, I guess) should be scrapped. This note will serve as a permanent record of what transpired. GeorgeLouis (talk) 07:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a copy of the work? Perhaps google didn't recognize the word garrigue if it actually was in the book, since it is not a plain text document? If so, his intuition that it was related to a root *kar for hard would still be something we could put as part of the comment in a footnote reference. But the quercus part should just be left out. μηδείς (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
No, I don't. Just hastily scrawled notes from at least thirty years ago. I would check http://www.worldcat.org/ to see where it is, and often a librarian will be available to look up the reference for you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 06:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)