Talk:Gauteng

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WikiProject Africa (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Hi Jcw69, I see that you're working on the Gauteng page, and it's nice. There are a few things I don't understand, though:

  • I listed the population figure of 8.8, which I found in the 2001 cencus data. You listed 7.3 million (actually, you listed 7.3 billion...) in the box - where did you get that figure? One figure should be agreed upon and used throughout the article.
  • I think the population figure belongs in the introduction paragraphs, right next to the land area figure - instead of moving it all the way down to the "demographics" section. The "... second most populated province of south africa" just begs to be followed by the actual population number, and this is how I originally wrote it.
  • In the demographics section, what does "languages spoken" mean? Obviously, many South African are bilingual. Are you counting people whose mother tounge is a certain language, people who can speak a certain lanugage, people who understand a certain language, or what?
  • Why do we need that side box repeating some geographic and demographic information that could be written in normal textual paragraphs?
  • Oh, and why do we need all those extra headings that don't contain any content, both as section headings and on the right infobox? I realise that this might make some people fill that content, but right now my impression is that these headers mostly make the article look ugly :(

Nyh 13:16, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would also delete the "important sports event" section altogether. For example, what does the super 12 event have to do with Gauteng specifically? Nyh 13:32, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gauteng[edit]

Hi Nyh,

I found the provinces of SA a mess most of them just stubs, so I wanted more detail in them. I tried to find a compatible layout for them by looking at the states in USA.

I know they look ugly, sorry but I want to full them with info and I am looking for the info when time permits.

As for the sports side I think your idea is much better because I just copied that from the states.

I was looking at the 1996 stats last night, sorry I corrected them.

I will be getting to the other provinces as soon as I can. I have started on KwaZulu-Natal so could you look there and update. Thanks

Feed back is great. Are u also living in SA

Jcw69

Actually, no, I live in Israel. But my girlfriend was born in Johannesburg, and I'm trying to learn her heritage :) Nyh 07:56, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Gauteng Map[edit]

Hi Nyh, I drew the map up based on the map found at the Johannesburg's website. I can change it if need be.--Jcw69 08:53, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Name changed[edit]

It says in the article .. It was initially named Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging (or PWV) and was renamed Gauteng in December 1994. What I found is that on 8 December 1994 a committee of the legislature of Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging province recommended that the name of the province be changed to Gauteng but I found two dates for the actual renaming that is 8 December 1995 or in Feb 1995. Can anyone give me the actual date when the name was gazetted? --Jcw69 10:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It depends on how you define the event of the name change. I am not from Gauteng (or a South African, for that matter), so I cannot comment on when this name was actually adopted - I wish someone from Gauteng can comment on it. Anyway, the best source I found on the subject is [1], to which I also linked in the article.
Anyway, according to this source (on whose validity I cannot comment...), "Gauteng, Sotho for "Place of Gold", was on Thursday afternoon (December 8) adopted as the new name for the PWV province.". Also "The matter was decided in a split vote". This means the December 8 date was not some arbitrary date that someone recommended the new name, but rather the actual date when this name was chosen in a vote. However, at that date, supposedly the name did not become "official", because the source continues "The name-change must be ratified by the national parliament before becoming official. A legislature source said she expected the name to be ratified in March next year.". Only a South African can comment on whether the actual name change process (which must have taken quite some time) started on December, after the Joburg legislature chose that name, or whether the official national ratification was waited for.
Nyh 18:21, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am a South African living in Gauteng and I don't even know, that is why I asked the question because of different conflicting dates.--Jcw69 06:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There exists a "South African Place Name Council" (or some similarly named institution) that must first investigate and approve any place name change (or new name for a new urban area, for that matter) on behalf of the national government. Their recommendation then goes to the national government for ratification/approval/rubber stamping. Municipalities or provincial governments do not have the power to change place names (of course, they may recommend/initiate changes), only the national government has. (This is also relevant to the whole Pretoria/Tshwane debate.) So, the second date is the correct one. Elf-friend 01:30, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I know it's four years later, but for the sake of completeness, here's the answer: the PWV became Gauteng when the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Act, 1995 came into force. (The names of the provinces were written into the Interim Constitution; for them to be changed the constitution had to be amended.) This occurred on 3 July 1994 (cite). - htonl (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Muncipalities/map dispute[edit]

If you look at the map at [2] you can see that the region marked as West Rand (number 13) on the map in the article is unmarked. Also the list of municipalities on the Department of Health site [3] lists 12 local and metro municipalities, which are presumably depicted on the map in this article, not 13. West Rand is listed as a district municipality, not as a local municipality and therefore should not appear to be on the map. I could be wrong, but someone needs to verify the status of the section marked as 13 on the map. Park3r 20:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

See also the map with the West Rand article, where the area marked as the "West Rand" in this article doesn't appear to be part of the West Rand.Park3r 20:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The area marked 13 is a District Management Area - that is, an area with no local municipality - which is part of the West Rand District Municipality. There seems to be some confusion about DMAs; the West Rand municipality is made up of areas 9-13 on that map (although #10, Merafong City, has now been lost to Southern District in the North-West Province). The map on West Rand is wrong; the area marked 13 is definitely part of the West Rand DM. - htonl 23:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, with the updated map (see below) I have clarified the description of that area. - htonl 18:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Transfer of Merafong City Local Muncipality to North-West Province and abolition of cross-border municipalities[edit]

Will the maps have to change following the abolition of cross-border municipalities, and the transfer of various areas like Merafong City Local Municipality (that includes Khutsong)?168.209.98.35 18:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they will. Merafong City (#10 on the current map) has been transferred to North-West; I am working on drawing up new municipality maps, from the latest Municipal Demarcation Board data, at commons:Maps of South African municipalities. One of my priorities is to draw new maps for areas with significant changes as a result of the abolition of CBMs. - htonl 23:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, map and the corresponding list updated. - htonl 18:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 08:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested Move[edit]


Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

municipality map[edit]

Could anybody say what number corresponds with what municipality. It is not clear to me this way --Merijn2 15:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation[edit]

the stress is on the second syllable, correct? (sometimes people get mixed up where to put the stress mark) kwami (talk) 06:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it's the second-last syllable. Sesotho, like almost all other Southern and East African languages that don't have long vowels, has penultimate stress. The word is 4 syllables long (ga u te ng).
Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 08:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

So stress is on the te, as we currently have it? (That would make it different from Xhosa or Swahili. In English it would only have two syllables, so that would be the final syllable, and the English pronunciation is what we've listed.) kwami (talk) 08:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

IsiXhosa and Kiswahili both have penultimate stress (they're Eastern and Southern African languages without a distinction between long and short vowels).
Perhaps you're thinking about the isiXhosa tone? In isiXhosa the tonal pattern for the word eRhawudeni is (I THINK) HLHLL. The second high is not a stress accent, but the second last syllable is stressed, and this is indicated by lengthening the vowel in de.
What's listed is not the English pronunciation, and nor should it be. The [x] sound does not exist in standard South African English. In Sesotho, the language from which the name comes, the name is 4 syllables long and has stress on the 3rd syllable. I'll see if I can quickly whip up a proper IPA guide.
Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 14:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Try this: [xɑu'teŋ̩]. I did not include a proper stress marker (just an apostrophe). This is a bit broad, as it doesn't indicate the syllable break between the first two syllables, nor does it indicate that the second consonant is ejective, but it does show that the final consonant is actually syllabic.
Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 14:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. My point about Xhosa and Swahili is that you wouldn't get a syllable ng, and therefore not stress the te with that spelling. We can certainly add the Sotho; we just need the tone. But then what is the English pronunciation? Just a spelling pronunciation of /ˈɡaʊtɛŋ/? kwami (talk) 20:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if it would have an English pronunciation, since it's not an English word!
The final Sesotho syllabic -ng is cognate to the isiXhosa -ni, and is a locative marker (Proto-Bantu -(e)nî). Thus, isiXhosa eRhawudeni also has stress on a similar syllable -- the de.
The tone in Sesotho (without taking stress lengthening and downdrift into consideration) is HHLL.
Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 22:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Centainly you don't mean that English-speaking South Africans don't ever mention Gauteng, or that they just write it on a slip of paper? kwami (talk) 22:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

In the same way that English speakers take words from many other languages and pronounce them in a variety of ways, I think we should concentrate on the pronunciation in the source language, instead.
What's the pronunciation of the word "isiXhosa"? When you describe it, are you going to use some random person's pronunciation, or just use the pronunciation in the source language? This is a similar problem...
Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 19:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
South Africa is an English-speaking country, so I'd expect an emergent default English pronunciation for Gauteng. (IsiXhosa is usually anglicized as Xhosa /ˈkoʊsə/.[4]) If everyone really does use a different ad hoc pronunciation, with no rhyme or reason, then we should give a warning that the name does not exist in English. kwami (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Can add audio file of correct pronunciation?[edit]

Can we please add to the article an audio file of the correct pronunciation(s)? Thanks. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Former Names[edit]

Would be a good idea to put former names behind the new name Like Mogale City (Krugersdorp). I live in the Netherlands know about krugersdorp but not Mogale. What do other people think about it? Sure you guys don't all agree with the namechanges? Flagman (talk) 13:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I would strongly recommend against that. Krugersdorp is not Mogale City. Mogale City is far larger than just Krugersdorp, it includes Krugersdorp, Magaliesburg, Tarlton, Munsieville, Hekpoort and Kagigo. See [5]. Using both names just add more confusion, just look at List of cities by size in South Africa as an example. Are those stats just for Durban or eThekwini as a whole, just for Port Elizabeth or for Nelson Mandela Metropole as a whole? --NJR_ZA (talk) 13:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Indeed, in South Africa there is not a 1-to-1 mapping between municipalities and towns, and many municipalities include multiple significant towns. But there should be somewhere (either in this article or a separate list article) a list of cities, towns, villages, etc. in Gauteng. Possibly this list should also indicate which municipality each settlement is in. - htonl (talk) 14:52, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
That is a good idea, maybe List of cities and towns in Gauteng can be modified as a sortable list with Town|Local Municipality|District Municipality|Metro Municipality.
PS: I have just created a stub for Mogale City Local Municipality‎ and updated the infobox for Krugersdorp, Gauteng to indicate that it is part of Mogale. --NJR_ZA (talk) 15:05, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
I have added a sortable list to List of cities and towns in Gauteng, let me know if this useful. --NJR_ZA (talk) 16:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
For city name changes see List of city name changes#South Africa.

Pronounciation[edit]

I see that it shows English speakers pronounce the province with a "g" (like the spelling? I have personally NEVER heard anyone (English/Afrikaans/Black) say "Gaw-teng", it has always been "XGaw-teng", where the X is a "flemming" sound, if that makes sense? Can we remove the first pronounciation. Btw the "Gau" isn't a fully african word. It originally came from "Goud", which has passed on into some African languages. "Goud" in Afrikaans is pronounced with the "X" sound at the beggining as well. Bezuidenhout (talk) 17:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I would qualify that by saying that I've never heard any South African pronounce it with an ordinary 'G'; I've heard plenty of English-speakers from other countries pronounce it that way. But I would absolutely agree that the correct SA English pronunciation starts with a voiceless velar fricative (the "XG" sound). - htonl (talk) 17:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
I understand that, but there are millions of English speakers in this country, so surely South African English is supposed to be the pronounciation at the beggining? (english: [gauteng]) means South African English, not international English. We don't display the Australian English pronounciation of saying Manchester on the page? Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, sorry about making such a big fuss out of this. Its just, we have to display the CORRECT way of saying something, if that means saying "Houston" has a silent H, or "GER-many" with emphasis on the first sylable? Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
No, no, I agree with you. It was just a remark. The SA English pronunciation is the relevant one for articles on SA topics. - htonl (talk) 11:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Economy not 10% of African GDP[edit]

I know the S. African govt says it is but govts often mislead. And the 10% figure is unbelivevable. Per Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) S. Af GDP = 357, so if Gauteng one third as claimed, Gauteng = circa 120. Africa = 1,730. North Africa = circa 600.

So using grade school math Gauteng a bit over 10% of sub Saharan Africa and around 7% of African GDP.

I did change article. 96.49.36.43 (talk) 07:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Strange Demography of South African provinces[edit]

The proportion of black Africans nationally versus minorities has not increased since the 2001 census, yet according to the 2011 census black Africans are now the majority in Northern Cape and the 70-75% majority of non-blacks in Western Cape has been reduced to 68%. In addition I believe that whites made up 20% of the population of Gauteng in 2001. How is it that blacks don't increase as a percent of population nationwide yet it seems that the SA government is claiming they have increased in several provinces where it matters to the ANC? Is there tampering going on here? Have whites and coloreds and indians gained in other provinces and I just haven't noticed? 64.189.66.167 (talk) 01:54, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

From 2001 to 2011 the proportion of Black Africans nationally increased slightly, from 79.0% to 79.2%. On the provincial level, the proportion of Black Africans decreased in the Eastern Cape, the Free State, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and North West. There was a big increase in Black Africans in the Northern Cape (which was partly because of border changes) but the population of the province is so small that it has little effect on the national numbers. The figures for 2001 are on pages 10 and 12 of this document and for 2011 are on page 21 of this document. It has the absolute numbers as well as percentages, so you can check the calculations for yourself if you want to. - htonl (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Review[edit]

I think that this article is ready to be rated again in terms of its quality scale. I've done tons of work on it and feel that the quality of the article has improved substantially in the last month or so. Thoughts? Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 15:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Crime[edit]

Hey, I've been doing lots of research on crime in Gauteng and I think that it would be appropriate to include it in the article. Should I give it its own section or make it part of one of the already present sections? (Perhaps Demographics or Law And Government), let me know! Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 20:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)