Talk:Genesis P-Orridge

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Timeline?[edit]

Hey, the article says that Megson was born in 1950, but later states 'In 1965, while attending Hull University, Neil subsumed himself into the character of Genesis P-Orridge'. This suggests that Megson was attending university by the age of 15 - if true, a quite unusual circumstance that bears further explanation. If untrue, we could do with finding out the correct dates. SpaceyHopper 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Check: [[1]]

It seems now to have been corrected to - Born spring 1950, started secondary school autumn 1961 (age 11), started university autumn 1968 (age 18). Seems perfectly normal. There remains some slight confusion as an early biography of the artist instead says "born in [...] 1947", but this is probably misdirection and/or nonsense (rather expected when band names like Thee Temple Ov Psychick Youth are par for the course) and doesn't tally up so well with the rest of the timeline. 193.63.174.211 (talk) 08:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Heavy intro[edit]

Let's assume I don't have the faintest clue who Genesis P-Orridge is (true), then the first paragraph still leaves me a bit in the dark afer reading: what does

a manipulator of words and sound, a performance artist, in the truest sense, an exile, a returnee and advocate of various counterculture ideas, sacrificing most comfortable notions of identity, gender and even DNA

mean, exactly? It sounds like fan praise of those "in the know", but it just confuses me. How can anyone "sacrifice the comforable notion of DNA", for example? Even if you explain this in the remainder of the article, you shouldn't just dump it on the reader in the beginning. Keep it simple in the intro.

Similarly for

His former wife and PTV collaborator, Paula, is no longer mentioned in liner notes of any of the reissues of the music or writings since the mid-1990s. Sometimes this cropping is extremely awkward for those familiar the 12 years of PTV that Paula was so much a part of. This is certainly a rewriting of history but perhaps it's also out of respect for peoples' private lives.

I'm still in the intro here. I don't understand what the relevance is at this point. Also, I'm wondering what the background is of mentioning that it's "extremely awkward for those familiar..." or "certainly a rewriting of history but out of respect for people's private lives..." Is this based on quotes by anyone? Do we have them? Are we summarizing other facts? Which ones?

Finally, does the fifth section really need to have such a long title? Couldn't you call it "Later developments" or something like that and break it into subsections?

The article looks like fascinating stuff, incidentally. I'm guessing this might end up in the distinguished company of Wikipedia:Unusual articles. Keep up the good work. JRM 01:50, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

These are good points. I see the error in my ways and do appreciate, very much, your feedback. Alecw
The Lead section was also excessive, so I have made a corresponding edit, but none of the information has been lost, with repetitive content removed and other content relocated to a more appropriate section.--Soulparadox (talk) 03:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

John C. Lilly's breast implants?[edit]

Maybe I'm just ignorant about John Lilly, but I haven't found any reference that says that he had gotten breast implants. Hence, why the "...like John C. Lilly before him" mention? Anarchivist | Talk 16:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The reference was unnecessary for a variety of reasons, I've since killed it. :bloodofox: 14:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

POV and grammar issues.[edit]

I really like this article. Theres certainly alot of love put into it. However, Im finding , that perhaps its a little uncritical and perhaps would do well if someone (who isnt as gramatically impaired as I!!) had a look over it and gave it a clean up. It strikes me that the principle issues are grammar, and perhaps the POV issues. It just needs a little more detachment. -Duck monster

Unacceptably Hagiographic article[edit]

This article was obviously heavily written by a huge ptv fan. The problem is almost any attempt to do a single en masse edit to fix it will inevitably be reverted because its almost not possible to write a legitamite article about GPO that is the length of the current article. It would appear unseemly that so much work would be getting deleted. So I'm posting this here to get everyone to agree that this article needs to be cleaned up in a major way.

Amen to that. It doesn't seem wholly terrible, to be fair, but it does smack somewhat of being a biography lifted from a fansite... 193.63.174.211 (talk) 08:07, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I have a few queries about this piece-

  • "These people cut up and re-arranged reality" - this seems like a personal interpretation of artistic intent. If P-Orridge claimed that this was the intent of his work, it should perhaps state that this is the case.
  • "There was Neil Megson, who was born and raised" - I think "Neil Megson was born and raised" would sound better, but I'm not sure if there's some reasoning for "There was".
  • "A-choo" - at the end of 'Early Life'. I'm not sure what this means.
  • P-Orridge's prison sentence is mentioned, but I think it needs further explanation.
  • "it's not clear whether Neil died somewhere along the line" - I think this needs a little more explanation that we're talking about the identity Neil and not the physical Neil.
  • More information is needed on his "political exile". Cnwb 23:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I'm addressing your very valid concerns. Many thanks. Alecw
I've got a feeling that this was written by his first wife. I've deleted some of the merciless flak but without flak, there's almost nothing left.
There is a lot of very pro P-Orridge POV. I've removed the most egregious eaxample, but there is a lot more to do, even at the expense of there being almost nothing left. --Fire Star 火星 17:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I've had a go at tidying up some of the article. Too much still read like a fan/reviewer or someone speculating - GPO's career is remarkable enough without all the hyperbole - or mythmaking that it attracts.

Rrose Selavy (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the "GPO was the last person to speak to Curtis" reference . It seems possibly more appropriate for the Ian Curis article , if at all but Without further corroboration, which is impossible, it seems a mix of trivia and legend making by association and little to do with the rest of the section and GPO's career..

Rrose Selavy (talk) 20:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Categories: Fluxus/Transgender and transsexual musicians[edit]

I'm very seriously considering doing a massive editing job on this. Before I attempt this, there are two things that I have issue with in the categories section:

The first one is Fluxus. I've read enumerable interviews with the subject and the only times that Fluxus was mentioned it was derogatory.

Secondly, the transgender thing. I read an interview where the subject talks about the breast implants and the explanation has absolutely nothing to do with "being a woman trapped in a man's body" or anything remotely typical of a transgender kind of situation. The hyperlink: "Pandrogenous" redirects to "Transitioning (transgender)". It strikes me as an attempt to button-hole the subject's behavior into something more palatable.

Neither of these category targets are specifically mentioned in the text. The Fluxus article lists the subject among many others on a lengthy list, without further comment. If no one objects, I plan to remove those two categories in the near future.

Steve Lowther 08:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, no objection. No encouragement either...I went ahead and did what I proposed above. I also tweaked the article a bit, removed a lot of the links in the text (some was a bit excessive) tried to keep the Neil and Genesis names consistent with the chronology...a few minor adjustments in language just to improve the tone. I only worked on the text part way into the section 1971 to 1976. I'll take another crack at it later.

Steve Lowther 11:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think if you actually read the articles on Fluxus and transgender you would realize that both apply to GP-O, and neither of them are offensive.75.49.251.170 (talk) 08:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Factual Mistakes??[edit]

The article states: "Throbbing Gristle was formed 18 October 1976 at the ICA as a four-piece rock band

The first Throbbing Gristle performance was at the Air Gallery in London on July 6, 1976."

The band was formed in October 1976 but played its first concert three months earlier in July 1976?? What kind of nonsense is this? It not nonsense you fucking nimrod, the band could have played a free form concert and than officially formed in 1976. Suck on that, low iq boy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.115.162.248 (talk) 19:32, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

The statement "The IR logo was a faded, high-contrast black-and-white photograph of Auschwitz's main ovens" is actually incorrect. This was long thought to be the case but is in fact an exterior photograph of the Tate Modern Art Gallery in London, England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Almightybooblikon (talkcontribs) 21:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


No, it is in fact true that the original Industrial Records logo is a photo of the main oven at Auschwitz. The confusion arose because, when the reformed Throbbing Gristle performed at the Tate Modern in 2007, all the advertising featured an updated Industrial Records logo, using an image of the gallery treated to look the same as the original Auschwitz log as a satirical visual gag just for this one-off event.D. Molan's book "Sympathy for the Devil: Art and Rock and Roll Since 1967" displays the two versions alongside each other for comparison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JakeC70 (talkcontribs) 16:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Death[edit]

Source: http://www.genesisp-orridge.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.212.94 (talk) 23:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Genesis Breyer P-Orridge and her reactivated Psychic TV aka PTV3 are terribly sad to announce the cancellation of their November North American tour dates. This decision is entirely due to the unexpected passing of band member Lady Jaye Breyer P-Orridge.

Genesis P would seem to still be alive. The band member "Lady Jaye" seems to have died. / edg 00:00, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Given that this is Wikipedia an open forum which seeks historical truth as we know it; I feel the need to understand where the information about Lady Jaye's passing is coming from.Has there been an official statement released by her parents? Is it official how she actually died or are we taking it on the word of PTV3 and co?20:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zietthis (talkcontribs)

Wikipedia is not an "open forum", and its standard is verifiability, not truth. http://www.genesisp-orridge.com/ is the source used for this information. Usually, band/artist sites are considered reasonable sources on the death of a band member, but if you feel a need to pursue this further, please share what you find. / edg 15:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

She was more than a "band member" - she was also his wife and as such, noting her death here is unquestionably appropriate to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JakeC70 (talkcontribs) 16:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Birth year?[edit]

Two are listed. Which is it?! Amber388 (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

If it's 1950 as stated, the reference to Megson attending Hull University in 1965 seems highly unlikely. AuntFlo (talk) 12:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

His site Bio says 1950 for bith year and 1968 for Hull which coincides with the use of the name on the Early worm recording from 1968 (in the article) so I've changed it to 68.

Rrose Selavy (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

TOPY[edit]

Surely some mention of the influence Genesis had in Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth should be in the article? As a founding member s/he is integral to the founding and continued ethos of the TOPY network. - Al.locke (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I just read the article for the first time, and that was my thought. It's a huge omission.KD Tries Again (talk) 19:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)KD Tries Again

This article refers to p-orridge as "he". They used to identify as "s/he" and now I believe identify as "we" in interviews since the death of their wife.

Either way I think using a male pronoun to refer to this person is misleading and possible offensive. Don't know what the wikipedia policy is here tho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daresbalat (talkcontribs) 14:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Pronouns[edit]

This article refers to p-orridge as "he". They used to identify as "s/he" and now I believe identify as "we" in interviews since the death of their wife.

Either way I think using a male pronoun to refer to this person is misleading and possible offensive. Don't know what the wikipedia policy is here tho. Daresbalat (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I think an answer is needed on this as soon as possible, since yes, misgendering P-Orridge would be offensive, and to do so is arguably a factual error as well (if anyone disagrees with the latter point, I suggest they look into the difference between "sex" and "gender"). genesisbreyerporridge.com uses "h/er" in the bio, but I'm not sure how accurate or up-to-date this is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.19.231.177 (talk) 10:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm very uncomfortable with the use of the second person plural pronoun ("they") - no matter what gender or lack thereof P-Orridge identifies as, it's simply very bad grammar to use a plural pronoun to refer to a single person (particularly as frequently and consistently as this article does). I feel like any alternative ("s/he" or "he" or even alternating "he" and "she" or something) would be much better. As it stands it is very difficult to read and does not need to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.150.220 (talk) 10:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Very true. I came here to find out a little bit about P-Orridge, and the first "they" used in the article left me tied in paroxysms of confusion that were not remedied till near the end of the article. I know that "s/he" wishes to be a "they," but the English language still does not work that way, no matter what "s/he" wants. Personally, I vote for a major rewrite, referring to P-Orridge in a gender-neutral way as one singular entity. Let's use the pronoun "it." 68.212.233.113 (talk) 01:50, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I also was totally thrown off by "they." The first time it appeared in the article, I thought Genesis P-Orridge must be a band, not an individual, but when I double-checked the top of the article, it indeed says "born Neil Andrew Megson." Using "they" makes this article an extremely awkward read, and it continues to be confusing even once you realize it was intentional. But I think "it" would sound less than human -- potentially insulting/offensive, and possibly confusing as well. I vote for s/he, his/her, etc., as the best option for easy reading and clear understanding. Annie OK (talk) 05:54, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, if we are to be properly inclusive and respectful of all types of self image, shouldn't integrated multiple personalities also get a look in? If G. P-O is now self-identifying as "we", then wouldn't "they", in the plural rather than neuter sense, actually be the correct third party pronoun for once? ;) 193.63.174.211 (talk) 08:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
This argument is in fact absurd.
A he is a he is a he. I'm a he; he's a he.
The article on Queen Victoria does not flip the royal "we" into "They were the longest-reigning queen."
99.238.74.216 (talk) 03:21, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Article title[edit]

According to the documentary The Ballad of Genesis and Lady Jaye, Genesis Breyer P-Orridge (or Breyer P-Orridge) is the current preferred name of this artist. The subject personally corrected me when I wrote about a 2011 event in Los Angeles and used "Genesis P-Orridge." Per MoS, we should use a subject's preferred name. I'll change it back in a few days if there are no objections. Comments welcome. Jokestress (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

  • As far as I gather (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong), it is Wikipedia policy to usually use the term which is best known; which in this instance would be "Genesis P-Orridge". (Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:14, 30 April 2012 (UTC))

Pronoun errors[edit]

This article contains consistent pronoun errors. According to Wikipedia's MOS:IDENTITY policy, the gender pronouns that must be used in Wikipedia articles are those that reflect the subject's latest expressed gender self-identification. Breyer P-Orridge's website, which lists a copyright date of 2012, as of the date I accessed it (December 31, 2012) describes this person using the pronouns s/he, h/er, and h/erself. Therefore, these are the pronouns that must be used in the article. I am replacing all masculine pronouns that refer to the subject with pandrogynous pronouns of the type appropriate for Genesis Breyer P-Orridge. Rebecca (talk) 11:57, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that's a valid argument, but do you have to use the made-up "pandrogynous" term? And does that still hold for the years before "s/he" assumed this persona when, at least outwardly, s...s.. - oh, blast it, I haven't had enough coffee for this - they would have been identified as male?
(Or in other words: being inclusive and respectful of non-binary gender identities is all well and good, but let's bear in mind we're dealing with a performance artist who seems very happy to mess about with language for the heck of it, and thus not get TOO cozy with either themselves or whatever strange terms they may come up with, when this is supposed to be an impartial reference work. Fair enough, we don't have any non-awkward neuter-type pronouns in English, but that might as far as we need to go) 193.63.174.211 (talk) 08:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
(And allow me to clarify that "made-up" accusation: putting "pandrogynous" into search, which I did in order to see if the word could be linked to an explanatory article, just redirects to "androgyny", a setting that could well have been added by a fan of "GPO". There's no mention of the term on that page itself, though there's some outwardly similar-sounding ones like Pangender. Quite how that differs from androgyny in any meaningful way is something I can't quite grasp at the moment - can someone fill me in on the fine detail of what would make someone androgyne rather than pandrogyne/pangendered or vice-versa? (Or indeed, "pandrogyne" rather than "pangender"... if that's not inviting open clique-warfare between tiny overspecific factions within the wider alternative-gender community)
It smacks of the selfdiagnostic waffle of "tumblr.txt", or a thousand different cod-surrealist open-mic poets... What's to stop me making up a likely-sounding piece of terminology and trying to popularise it by applying it to myself, for attention seeking purposes, even though it's a complete fabrication with no real definition behind it, and harming the cause of a great many actual trans/etc folks in the process?) 193.63.174.211 (talk) 08:32, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Let me address the pronoun issue first because I think it's pretty cut and dry. Yes, Breyer P-orridge's preferred pronouns are pretty atypical. They are pretty atypical even within the transgender community. It's fine for you to personally look askance at h/er preferred pronouns, choose not to use them in talk pages, view them as simply a part of Breyer P-orridge's performance art, and so on. All the same, these are the pronouns by which--according to all current information we have--the subject of this article identifies h/erself with. So YES we should use these pronouns in accordance with Wikipedia's MOS:IDENTITY guidelines. And YES if we are to follow these guidelines (and I see no compelling policy reason not to) we need to use the pronouns for the subject's ENTIRE life. The guidelines are very clear that this is what should done for ALL gendered terms, regardless of how a person may been presenting themselves to the world in the past. Of course, you are free to view Breyer P-orridge as merely a disingenuous attention seeker, but that is pretty obviously your point of view and is not something that should overly influence how this article is written in my opinion.
Now, in terms of the whole pandrogynous thing. It does not matter if the word is "made up." All words in every language were made up by somebody at some point. I do agree with you though that the word appears to enjoy extremely limited usage. Therefore, sufficiently defining it in the article is probably necessary. I think the most standard approach here would be to put the word in italics, followed by a definition. Putting a word in italics (not quotemarks) is the typical way of introducing a new or unfamiliar term to people in an encyclopedia article. Context could also be provided that Breyer P-orridge is the person who coined this term (if that's true, and if a quality source can be found to verify it). But I do not agree with how you put quotemarks around "become" and "single pandrogynous entity," and I am removing those quotemarks. Quotemarks are not appropriate here because the language in question is a paraphrase and doesn't appear in the source document. The quotemarks make it appear to be a direct quotation when it's not. Your strategy of putting quotemarks around something to indicate skepticism toward it is POV and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. This article needs to be written using NPOV. Rebecca (talk) 16:52, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
"This article needs to be written using NPOV." And that is exatcly what you are NOT doing. You are so biased you can't even see it yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.119.11.65 (talk) 10:36, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Citation review[edit]

I have found a few dead links and repaired some bare URLs, so I will do some further research to try and replace the outdated citations.--Soulparadox (talk) 04:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I fixed or replaced the dead links. —Torchiest talkedits 04:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Genesis P-Orridge/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 19:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment: As a significant contributor to this page, I am not entitled to undertake a GA review of it, but I would like to express my personal opinion that this article is not yet ready for GA staus, and in my experience (having undertook a number of GA reviews and brought five articles up to GA status), it would surely fail a review. Many of the sections, such as those on Throbbing Gristle, are far too short and lack sufficient quality references. I am more than happy to help built this article up over the next few weeks and months, as I own a number of books on the subject of P-Orridge and TG, but think that ideally, this GA review should be withdrawn at this current juncture. Sorry to be the barer of bad news! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:56, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I think it's pretty close, and I'm planning on continuing to work on it. I didn't expect it to get picked up immediately, and figured it would be ready by the time someone finally looked at it. But by starting this page, you've officially placed yourself as the reviewer, which means it can't be picked up by an uninvolved contributor. —Torchiest talkedits 20:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

transmedia activations[edit]

I met Genesis a couple of times at Islington Park Street. Transmedia Activation was not considered to be part of the Exploding Galaxy. Gerald Fitzgerald was not one of the founders of the Exploding Galaxy, he joined it soon after it was founded. Nor did he call himself a kinetic artist, though he did call his dramatic works written for the Exploding Galaxy "kinetic dramas". He was certainly one of the founders of Transmedia Activation, a name which was adopted to differentiate it from the Exploding Galaxy, though they did perform at one or two gigs after the Galaxy had disbanded which had already been booked in the Exploding Galaxy name. If Genesis ever met David Medalla it would have been much later and not through Transmedia Activation which Medalla was not in contact with. Currently the phrase Exploding Galaxy in the David Medalla article redirects to Genesis P-Orridge and the phrase Transmedia Activations in the Genesis article redirects to David Medalla, the latter redirection is particularly inappropriate, but really both are, as Genesis had only the slenderest connection with the Exploding Galaxy. I'm Edward Pope and was a member of the Exploding Galaxy and a visitor of Transmedia Activation. By far the best source on the Exploding Galaxy is a new book "99 Balls Pond Road, the Story of the Exploding Galaxy" by Jill Drower, Scrudge Books 2014. Being self-published and written by a Galaxy member the information in it is unlikely to make it to Wikipedia for some time, but I have a copy and can vouch for its general accuracy. It's 522 pages long, full of photos from the time, and costs £59 but it may be obtainable from libraries and I'm happy to answer any queries about those days. The later part of the Transmedia Activation paragraph sounds very plausible to me. ed@edpopehistory.co.uk

Pronouns (again)[edit]

P-Orridge might use "s/he", "h/er", and "h/erself", but the manual of style for gender-neutral language and self-indentification doesn't, and frankly would confuse a reader completely unfamiliar with the subject material. However, to try and avoid any possible edit war on this, I have avoided the first person singular pronoun in the prose wherever practical, so the problem is less significant than before.

What the problem seems to be is that our guideline is "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns .... that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." Since in that case, the answer is possibly "none at all", we'll have to defer to reliable and independent sources, which (unless I'm mistaken) come out as "he". (And, no P-Orridge's own website is not an independent source, though per WP:BLP can be used for first-hand information).

I'll ping Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT for more thoughts. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

very simple, use the surname, the "s/he", "h/er", and "h/erself" is unacceptable on every count and should be addressed asap. Semitransgenic talk. 10:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)