Talk:Genocide of indigenous peoples

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Original research[edit]

This article is full of original research, and it starts in the very first sentence

Genocide of indigenous peoples is the genocidal destruction of indigenous peoples, understood as ethnic minorities whose territory has been occupied by colonial expansion or the formation of a nation state, by a dominant political group such as a colonial power or a nation state.

That is not a definition of genocide because genocide has a specific meaning and simple "destruction" is not an adequate definition (there has to be intent to destroy a group).

If that is the definition used:

  1. who's definition is it?
  2. If that definition is being used why is there content like "The Moriori people were nearly exterminated after Chatham Islands were invaded by Māori tribes in the 1830s." because the Moriori people were not in a nation state nor where they a colonial power.

Just because something looks like genocide in the opinion of an editor does not make it so. There should be no entries on this page other than those were an authoritative reliable sources states that an event was a genocide. For example "Congo Free State" is not considered to be a genocide by any serious historian.-- PBS (talk) 14:51, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

That came from the RFC above titled RfC: Scope of this article. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I am confused are you saying that the definition is OR? -- PBS (talk) 17:15, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for not being clearer, I meant the definition in the article arose from the RFC, you may wish to ping the guy who wrote that part. I have no idea who added the stuff about the Māori. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Content fork[edit]

As far as I can tell this is a content fork from Genocides in history. What was the reason for the creation of this article? How does it differ from genocides in history? -- PBS (talk) 14:51, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Because this is about indigenous groups? Darkness Shines (talk) 15:52, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
What specific definition in this article is being used for an indigenous group? -- PBS (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The one in the RFC I linked in the section below. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:25, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
@Darkness Shines then if if is from an RfC without a citation to a reliable source then it is OR. -- PBS (talk) 13:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Shaka Zulu's conquests[edit]

Lots of nasty things happen but is is not up to Wikiepdia editors to categories those events as a genocide, crime against humanity, or a war crime. It is up to editors to cite reliable sources that state that an event was a genocide, etc, and it is necessary to show that this is the legal or common academic view if the claimant is not to be attributed inline.

@Tobby72: you have just made edit, where in the sources cited are the events described as a genocide? -- PBS (talk) 13:11, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

@Tobby72: To qualify that further: the introduction state "Genocide of indigenous peoples is the genocidal destruction of indigenous peoples, understood as ethnic minorities whose territory has been occupied by colonial expansion or the formation of a nation state". Who claims that this was a "genocide of indigenous peoples" during the formation of a nation state? -- PBS (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

"It was Shaka's single-minded ambition and determination that took this small and obscure tribe and made it the most powerful nation in southern Africa."[1]
"He did not invent genocide, but he certainly used it to increase his power. Enemy tribes were reduced in battle, and then the remnants were absorbed into the Zulu nation."[2] -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:52, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
But what is the evidence suggesting that the victims fall under the category "indigenous peoples". In the sense that the victims of Shakas genocides were indigenous so was Shaka. And that sense is not the one used in this article. There has always been genocide, also among indigenous peoples themselves. But that is not what this article is about. The same is the case for the Maori Chatham genocide. It falls outside of the scope of this article, but within the scope of a general article on the history of genocide.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

why is US section so small?[edit]

it was the biggest genocide in history--Crossswords (talk) 04:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

BS. Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people. Vast majority of Native Americans were in South/Central America, so US wasn't involved. Plus their deaths were caused mostly through disease. It's not genocide, it's ethnic cleansing. Genocide is intentional. By claiming that the deaths of Native Americans through foreign diseases in a 400 year period is similar to the intentional killing of Jews, Cambodians, Armenians, etc., you trivialize genocide. That's like saying the black death was a Mongolian genocide on Europeans. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
That is stupid since Native Americans are not a single people. The US have been involved in genocidal and ethnocidal policies and practices against many people in their territory. The fact that other colonial powers in Latin America have been just as bad does not mean that that excuses the US. Also the fact that the majority of depopulation was due to disease is in fact irrelevant because policies and actions with genocidal and ethnocidal intent are well documented. So no, your argument is like saying that it would excuse the Nazis if it were shown that most Jews died to malnourishment and typhoid fever in the concentration camps rather than being actively massacred. (I.e. I am not saying that that is the case, just to make sure, but showing that your analogy is wrong, because Genocide is not only actively succeeding in destroying a people, but also in simply intending and attempting to do so). But no, I dont think the US genocide against its indigenous peoples should have much more space in the article, unfortunately there are so many other terrible genocides on the same scale as the US one that also need space in the article. But it might not be a bad idea to make a separate article on Genocide and ethnocide of Indigenous peoples in the US. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:50, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
There's a difference between indirect and direct killing. Some Jews did die of disease (though primarily by gassing and secondly by shooting), but that's because they were rounded up and put in camps and starved. Native Americans died of diseases because they had no immunity whatsoever, not because they were injected with typhus or starved. Though the death toll of Natives was large, and the destruction of their culture tragic, this was over hundreds of years and mostly indirect deaths. I agree that America engaged in ethnic cleansing, but most scholars do not consider it a "genocide". Genocide implies intent. Though American policy was racist towards Native Americans, there has never been evidence that the US intended to destroy them as a people. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I think you are mistaken in what most scholars believe, genocidal intent was very clearly expressed by many American state officials.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
There needs to be a lot more information on the Armenian genocide, considering its massive scale. A genocide with 1.5 million deaths should not be given the same weight as one with 20,000 deaths. Personally, I think there should be a category for "controversial" genocides, ie ones usually not considered genocides. Ie Mao's Great Leap Forward (famine was not genocide though it was created artificially through communist policy), Stalin's gulag's (more aptly considered politicide), and colonization of the Americas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monochrome Monitor (talkcontribs) 01:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
That would require some sources describing Armenians as an indigenous people. I think the case could be made that they were/are an indigenous people in Turkey, but they do not generally appear as such in the literature. Again the argument that most deaths were indirect is irrelevant, because evidence of genocidal intent and massacres of specific ethnic groups abounds. One thing is the question of whether the decline of the native population was due to genocide, but even it if was not that does not mean that the round-valley war, the destruction of the Natchez, the trail of tears or the Apache wars were not genocidal. Ethnocidal (cultural genocide) policies have been standard up untill the mid 1950s in American indigenous policy. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
The U.S. section appears proportional. In reply to the other posters, there are disputes about the definition of genocide, which could exclude the mass murder of indigenous peoples, since unlike for example the Holocaust, forced assimilation and deportation were also used. However, that is an issue about what the topic should be named, not whether the U.S. should be included. The victims mentioned by Monochrome Monitor are not considered "indigenous peoples." The term is mainly used to refer to peoples in countries colonized by Europeans, although there are some exceptions. TFD (talk) 02:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)