Talk:Gerson diet

Deaths

I need refs to the death from coffee enemas else I'll remove it from this article. Deaths have occurred from excessive coffee enemas but not, as far as i'm aware, through use of coffee enemas as prescribed in the Gerson regime. One person who died was giving herself dozens of coffee enemas a day, many times more than Gerson reccomended.

It's rather like including deaths from water intoxication in an article about a health regime that suggests drinking several glasses of water a day.--Mongreilf 09:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. It´s fanaticism that kills. Gerson diet is unpalatable but balanced, with potatoes and endless veggies and fruits, nuts, and some grains. Small amounts of protein (eg yogurt, lean chicken and fish) are often allowed in current practice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by V.B. (talk • contribs) 02:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this source thinks that it's not nutritionally balanced, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

maybe, that's not at issue though. what is is whether we can find a source on the three deaths, which this doesn't provide so i've removed it

what that source actually says is

Potentially dangerous alternative therapies in those with advanced lung cancer include... some diets recommended for treatment of cancer, such as the beetroot diet, the grape diet and the Gerson diet, as they may be nutritionally inadequate

which isn't exactly saying the gerson diet is nutritionally inadequate, it's saying one or more of these diets (of which the gerson is easily the most broad based) may be nutritionally unbalanced and potentially dangerous. this isn't definite enough for an encyclopaedic article to assert that the diet kills people--Mongreilf (talk) 13:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

And the paragraph that says, "Kefford is particularly concerned about cancer patients persuaded to undergo the much-hyped US Gerson diet program, which involves the use of ground coffee enemas which can cause colitis (inflammation of the bowel), fluid and electrolyte imbalances, and in some cases septicaemia. The US FDA has warned against this regime, which is known to have caused at least three deaths." means exactly what here? As I said in the edit summary, this is a word-for-word direct quote, which makes it a potential copyright violation. I have restored the quoted information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

yes, now you've actually included the source in the article. before that you hadn't, instead just adding an unconnected superscript and a different source in the talk page. is it any wonder i reverted?

the standard response from the gerson camp is the point i made above, people, including your source, lump together coffee enemas in general with the particlular regime of coffee enemas as prescribed by the gerson regime. those that died were giving themselves huge numbers of coffee enemas a day, this isn't gerson therapy, hence my original analogy with water intoxication above. example, quackwatch's page [1] reports some of the deaths, but attributes non of them to gerson therapy. your souce also cites the fda without giving it's sources, as far as i can tell, and can't be considered verifiable. in doing so it also makes the usual conflation of coffee enemas in general and gerson's coffee enemas

by the way it's nothing about the coffee that causes the deaths. ANY enemas may course the problems at issue, yet i don't see the fda banning enemas--Mongreilf (talk) 23:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

a much more balanced warning, and a primary source, on gerson therapies can be found at america's national cancer institute here [2] it mentions the fda's views on enemas and mentions the deaths from coffee enemas without insisting they were taking gerson therapy. i suggest you use this to rewrite instead the homepage of some australian hack

the best way to attack dubious therapies is to attack their efficacy, rather than rare and perhaps unproven side-effects in a sensationalistic manner. i wouldn't attack tylenol for being by far the most common cause of acute liver failure in the us, because it's still a useful drug--Mongreilf (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. You deleted this text (twice now): <ref name='BenHills'> {{cite web|url=http://benhills.com/articles/articles/MED06a.html |title=Fake healers. Why Australia’s $1 billion-a-year alternative medicine industry is ineffective and out of control. |accessdate = 2008-03-06 |last=Hills |first=Ben |work=Medical Mayhem }}</ref> but didn't somehow think that you were deleting a properly formatted reference? What did you think that text was, if it wasn't a reference? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge

Anyone have any views on the merge? I can't see any reason for these to be separate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)