Talk:Gewürztraminer

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The text for part of this entry was copied, apparently without permission, from here.

A clone of the parent Traminer variety. Widely grown, having literally dozens of synonym names in various countries including Traminer Rot. Best known as one of the mainstay grape varieties for which the french Alsace region is famous the popular Gewürztraminer produces white wines with a strong floral aroma and lychee nut-like flavor. It is often regarded as somewhat similar in style to the (Johannisberg) Riesling - when vinified as slightly sweet yet tart. Occasionally it is made into a "botrytized" late harvest dessert style wine. Does well in the cooler coastal regions of Western U.S. - (where it ripens in late September) - Australia and New Zealand. In Australia the variety is also known under several alias names. Among these are Traminer Musque, Gentil Rose Aromique and Red Traminer. Cool climate growers should be aware that, in addition to quite large successful plantings of the above variety, a well-regarded cross named Traminette, developed by Cornell University in the U.S.A over the last 30 years, is currently very successfully cultivated on small commercial acreages in the Finger Lakes region of New York State and several other cool northern regions of the USA.



I changed the first sentence that read Gewürztraminer is a wine varietal that has also given its name to the grape. because its wrong; the varietal didn't also give its name to the grape. Varietal means a wine named by its variety. Pontac

Pronunciation[edit]

Anyone out there capable of doing a proper pronunciation guide? This is one grape that really needs it :-P - The Bethling 22:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

My IPA-for-German skills are weak, but I can see what I can come up with. — Saxifrage 22:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
In English it's pronounced something like /ɡəʼvɝtstɹəminɚ/, guh-VERTS-truh-MEE-ner
In German it's pronounced something like /ɡɛʼvyːʀtstʀamiːneʀ/
I haven't studied IPA for German, so this is extrapolating from what I know of the language and my work on IPA in English. I may have some parts subtly wrong that vary depending on their context. These will work as very broad transcriptions, though. I'll work those into the lead. — Saxifrage 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow! That was quick :) Thanks! - The Bethling 02:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Spicy[edit]

I changed one of the first lines. The name Gewürztraminer literally means "spicy (or spiced) Traminer", not "spice from Tramin", which would more or less be "Traminergewürz".

Without a reference this might be inappropriate. Since the grape has been cultivated and has borne this name for a long time, it's entirely possible that it does not follow modern German rules. Perhaps read as Old High German or another ancestral dialect, the article was correct. Even in modern German, the "-er" suffix can be interpreted to mean "from", as in Berliner or Americaner, so Traminer could easily still mean "from Tramin". Regardless, the meaning of the name should be sourced to something. I'm going to change it back in the meantime and see if I can't find a source for its meaning. — Saxifrage 21:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think a translation should need a source. If I write that "tavolo" means "table" in Italian, i don't think i need a source to prove it. Anyway, you may know that Gewürztraminer produced in Italy, despite the production takes place in German-speaking areas, is called "Traminer aromatico", which means exactly "Aromatic Traminer", and is the closest translation to the german word, "aroma" and "spice" being in this case synonims, as per the french adjective "parfumé".

I disagree. If the translation in question were a normal word, then you'd be right. However, if we're going to say what a name means, then we need a source. It's not just a matter of translation. — Saxifrage 22:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a source that explains its name as "spiced Traminer". I'm going to change it to that, and add the cite. --- The Bethling(Talk) 06:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
That's great! Now I can be wrong for the right reasons! ;-) — Saxifrage 20:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


Language[edit]

If we're going to use the term "literally means", we should be precise. "Gewürztraminer" means "Spice-Traminer." "Spiced Traminer" would be "gewürzter Traminer." (German isn't as fluid as English in its creation and use of modifiers.)

Also, one can't notice "spritzig," because that's an adjective. One can note the bubbles, though. Is the quality of having these bubbles referred to as "Spritzigkeit"? I don't know. RogerLustig 20:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Photo swap?[edit]

I was looking at some of the images on the Gewürztraminer article in other languages and I found this image from the German Wikipedia. It got a nice close up of the cluster but there is some value in having the picture with the vine. What do you guys think? Agne 07:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

We are allowed more than one photo Agne :-) I changed it to the German one because it is a much better photo, but now having (finally!) worked out what was going on with the genetics I'm now not sure that it's a good idea. Coming from a German source, it could equally be Red Traminer rather than Gewurz, although the two should look almost identical of course. The other photo also has problems - the colour balance needs tweaking and the original seems to have been taken down from nl: Wiki for some reason. It's a shame, as the colour of the grapes is an important part of the Gewurz story, we need a good photo - and preferably from Alsace rather than Germany.
On a happier note, at least I've sorted out the Savagnin/Gewurz genetics to my satisfaction, although we could use some references. Has there been a definitive statement on whether Gewurz is a musqué mutant of Red Traminer? My feeling is that Galet is right and the Germans are wrong, but it would be nice to have something more than a hunch. FlagSteward 13:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Wine or grape?[edit]

Gewurtztraminer is a wine, and this article calls it a grape. Traminer is the grape, Gewurtztraminer the wine, in usage throughout Alsace, which is the home of the wine. This article in no way makes that clear. Added 05:26, 30 December 2007 by 66.146.173.34

Gewürztraminer or Gewurztraminer (no extra t before the z, please) is a grape variety used to make varietal wine. INAO's appellation rules for Alsace wine, Article 4, clearly state that "Gewurztraminer" (not just "Traminer") is the grape variety used for Gewurztraminer wine.[1] Traminer is a wider family of grapes that include Savagnin blanc and rose, the latter of which is used to produce Klevener de Heiligenstein. If you encounter "Traminer" as name for the grapes in Alsace, it's probably because it is a (lazy?) synonym for a difficult-to-pronounce grape name, while the labelling practices must conform to the INAO rules. Do you also encounter this among people who speak German, or is it a phenomenon among French-only-speakers? By the way, WP:WINE articles generally cover both grape varieties and varietal wines in the same article. Tomas e (talk) 21:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Checking my Oxford Companion to Wine, Gewurztraminer became the official name in Alsace in 1973, so if you've been consorting with old-fashioned winemakers they may have continued the habit of calling it Traminer. Tomas e (talk) 21:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

colors[edit]

the grapes are red but the wine is white, try to put that in but is it confusing?Truetom (talk) 13:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Mature Gewürztraminer grapes typically have red or pinkish colour, and yield white wine, although not seldom with a golden yellow tinge, if it's a good wine. I would say that this specimen has an unusually deep colour.
Mature Pinot noir grapes typically are purplish black, and show which colour a grape must have to make a red wine.

Ah, it is because of the confusing English-language habit to call grapes that make red wine "red grapes", which they really aren't. They're darker than that when they're mature - something like dark blue or purplish black. That's why they are typically called blue grapes in German (blauer..., such as blauer Spätburgunder), and black grapes in French (...noir, such as Pinot noir). Compare the two images on the sides! The grape's colour is all in the skin, and has to be "leaked out" during the fermentation - the juice from a freshly crushed grape is practically colourless. Skin contact with a skin that's a little pink or red isn't enough to turn the wine deep red. It takes much more "grape dye" to get the wine red, such as that provided by a blue-, purple- or black-coloured grape. Also, if you discard the grape skins immediately, you get a white wine also from a blue grape. Some Champagnes are 100% Pinot noir, and we're not talking of rosé champagne here. I usually use the term "dark-skinned grape" instead of "red wine grape" to avoid confusion. Tomas e (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

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