Talk:Glenn Miller

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Possible evidence of his death in 1944[edit]

24.174.162.43 02:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)I heard tonight from the moderator on the AMC channel that there was a airplane log found recently that noted British plane dropped excess bombs in the English channel to get rid of them. The log noted a plane below the bombs had been hit. There is speculation this plane was the one transporting Glenn Miller. MOK 8-13-2007

This has always interested me and made me wonder, but for Christmas I was given a book called GHOST STATIONS Mysteries by Bruce Barrymore Halpenny isbn 978-1-871448-08-5. The author, who is former RAF and an authority on such matter, shows that Shaw, who makes these claims of bombs on Miller’s Aircraft, has to be lying and goes into incredible detail to show why. Also he shows that if Shaw had seen an aircraft go into the sea he had a duty to report it even if that meant breaking radio silence, that was an order. Bruce Halpenny leaves you in no doubt that that Shaw is a liar or a murderer and either way is tarnishing the good name of the RAF and the brave crews. See here: http://www.sunline.net/warstories/ronbrown/ ChrisGreyfellow (talk) 19:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The area for bomb dropping was known IIRC as the 'Southern Jettison Zone' and was marked on Air Ministry and other military and naval maps, although it may not have been marked on the map Miller's pilot was using. The area was used for dropping bombs in case of aborted (cancelled after taking off) operations, it being safer for the bombers to land without them. The bombs were dropped 'safe', i.e., un-fuzed, although some of the larger bombs such as the 4,000lb Cookie would go off if dropped 'safe' anyway. The safety height for dropping one of these was around 5,000ft, due to the blast. Each aircraft would also have been carrying around a thousand 4lb stick incendiaries, which, although not likely to ignite and start a fire on any aircraft flying below, would nevertheless represent a hazard simply due to the force of them raining down on it.
Usually the only requirement before jettisoning a load over the area was to make sure that there weren't any ships close enough to be in danger. The weather was patchy cloud that day IIRC, so if Miller's Norseman had flown under any aircraft jettisoning their bombs, neither side may have been aware of it. As for blame, if any, Miller's pilot should have been aware of any local restrictions on flying, and any areas that were considered 'unsafe', so should have routed his flight away from any such areas marked on his maps.
Although a tenable theory, I suspect that the cause of the disappearance is probably more mundane, as such events usually are. I would guess that, like in most accidents, bad luck had a lot to do with it - see Star Dust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.4.57.101 (talk) 18:10, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a current article that a kid saw a plane go down and wrote about it in his notebook. To me, it is not noteworthy. I don't know why it had notoriety in current sources. Our Article is fine with mentioning he was going to Paris for a band show for troops and the plane never arrived, bad weather over the English Channel. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Direction of the page[edit]

Sometimes I don't understand the direction the article is heading, like when someone typed out the contents of a Glenn Miller cd. There have to be hundreds of editions of Glenn Miller cds and tapes and records that have circulated through the years. What made that one so special?70.114.39.22 (talk) 23:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Start Class Status[edit]

What would give this article a better rating than the mediocre start class status it currently has? Thanks. 70.114.39.22 (talk) 21:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Alabama information in the Army Air Force section[edit]

Great job for whoever found the Alabama and southern United States information about Glenn Miller's whereabouts when he first entered the Army Air Force!70.114.39.22 (talk) 14:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sold American Rhapsody Link[edit]

Aren't links to Rhapsody and You Tube problems because of copyright concerns?70.114.39.22 (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Length of article[edit]

Is this article too long? Could any of it be separated off into its own article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.39.22 (talk) 04:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Are the lists of songs able to be criticized because "long lists of trivia" are frequently criticized on here?Hipsterdoofus1 (talk) 03:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
On some song selections that are annotated, I proceeded to separate off into a footnote references that weren't about Glenn Miller. For example, the list of artists who recorded "At Last" or the Jack Million Band's version of "Invitation to a Waltz". I didn't do it to be disrespectful, but rather because I wanted the emphasis on Glenn Miller.70.114.39.22 (talk) 02:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I didn't write a lot of the discography section, so I don't want to step on any feet. But, what would anyone think of spinning the discography sections off into their own articles? At this point, the Glenn Miller article runs a stunning 22 pages long, if you print it. But 1.) I don't know how to spin off those sections and 2.) I didn't write a lot of it and maybe 22 pages aren't that long. The Beatles get 19 pages on here and they were the Glenn Miller of the sixties (on the Beatles page, they call Glenn Miller the Beatles of the forties. Just kidding).Hipsterdoofus1 (talk) 03:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Malformed references[edit]

Wow, wading through the task of editing all the URL refs is like being stuck in quicksand... far too many references in this article are badly formed! A bunch are just a bald URL inside of brackets--no name of source, no name of page, no ref HTML tags etc. First off, do we really need all of them? Some appear only to bolster a single musician's working with the band or covering a Miller song. Second, what's the point of putting Answers.com references in here when that site simply copies material from other sites such as Wikipedia? What a mess. I'd like to see a Bibliography section that lists major book sources so that those books can be cited by page number. Binksternet (talk) 05:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Discography article[edit]

I just moved about 40% of the article to Glenn Miller discography. The information presented had grown too large in my estimation and was very extensively though sloppily referenced. I wanted to retain the work that went into the text while streamlining this article to make it more readable. Be bold! Binksternet (talk) 04:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Whoever moved the discography back: don't you want a more succinct article and if the reader wants to know more Miller songs they can follow a link? The discography wasn't even copied and pasted correctly. Sometimes the discography reads like the Simon and Flower books typed verbatim with a little additional information typed in. I typed a lot of the discography so I feel free to criticize my own work. A casual reader doesn't want to know every story about every song Miller recorded.Hipsterdoofus1 (talk) 23:55, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Glenn Miller Pawning His Trombone[edit]

When someone wrote in this article that Glenn Miller pawned his trombone as a young man and had to race back with the money before it was sold, it made me suspicious. Because, by coincidence, Jimmy Stewart does the exact same thing in The Glenn Miller Story, which is known to be full of dramatic license. And also I can't find any verification of this happening, anywhere else. Can someone please verify this story? Thank you. Also, thank you for spinning off the discography into its own separate article.Hipsterdoofus1 (talk) 20:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Sony/BMG ad text[edit]

I have removed this line: "The consensus there was that Miller was no more than an average trombonist."Sony/BMG Glenn Miller Biography

It's an assertion lifted directly from a blurb written by Sony/BMG (see link). I think a line saying the consensus of Miller's early bandmates was that he was no ordinary trombonist should be supported by another source besides a record label's bio. — e. ripley\talk 17:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you misread the quote. Sony/BMG was saying that Miller was a mediocre trombonist. But you're right that an artist's music label isn't the most objective source for an opinion about the artist.24.167.105.97 (talk) 02:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Gunther Schuller has a chapter in his book referenced here that compares Tommy Dorsey and Glenn Miller, and says both knew they were mediocre trombonists, with Miller looking up to Dorsey and Dorsey looking up to practically every name trombonist of the 30s and 40s.24.167.105.97 (talk) 20:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Clarification: "mediocre" in the sense that they weren't first rate jazz trombonists like a Jack Teagarden.24.167.105.97 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Disappearances section in table form[edit]

"I added the table because I wanted to see how the "disappearance" part of the article would look set aside from the rest. Sometimes it seems like other parts of the article like the disappearance part are taking over the main body. Maybe it would be good to either segregate them or make them into another article." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.105.97 (talkcontribs) If the disappearance of Glenn Miller becomes a huge part of the article, with various conspiracy theories, that would threaten to take away from the most important part which is his work,ie arranging, military service, business acumen. It would be like writing an article about President McKinley and devoting %90 of it to his assasination. Also the sources used about his disappearance, seem to be dealing with almost seventy year old memories. They also use military jargon like "hot news flash" (or something to that effect) that is never fully explained either. If it's not military jargon, then I am not sure what they mean. I don't like deleting people's contributions unless they're committing vandalism. These are just thoughts about where the article might be going.24.167.105.97 (talk) 00:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I've removed this commented section from the body of the article and placed it here instead. — e. ripley\talk 14:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
To the substance, frankly I don't like it. It looks strange to me, and misplaced. I generally would prefer not to do anything that encourages the section to grow any larger than what it is -- there's a question here about how much space we should give to who knows how many theories there are out there, particularly ones that have been discounted. — e. ripley\talk 14:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The table doesn't suit its supposed purpose at all. I say delete it. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Aside from the discussion about whether the table is a good idea (I'm on the fence), there was malformed citation inside the table that I attempted to fix, but it caused other problems. Needs the attention of a wikitable format expert. Or a reversion to a regular section format. Woz2 (talk) 01:46, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
This is one of the more convincing reasons not to use a table. It makes later editing a real chore. Binksternet (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. The reversion back to a sections does however leave a clean up job because the final para is now a non-sequitor. Not sure how to integrate it into the flow. Thoughts? Woz2 (talk) 11:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
One of things that was nice about the table is that it made you stop and contemplate the loss and lack of closure. I edited the page to call out the quotes. Pls revert if it doesn't work for you. Woz2 (talk) 19:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Gunther Schuller and Gary Giddins qualifications[edit]

I added the credentials of Gary Giddins and Gunther Schuller because I wanted to show that they were qualified in making educated judgements about Glenn Miller's music. I placed the qualifications in footnotes because to include them in the body would take away attention from Miller's life and place attention on the lives of the critics. Thanks in advance for any consideration of this.24.167.105.97 (talk) 20:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Richard Sudhalter Reference[edit]

Did anyone notice the entry on Bobby Hackett at the bottom of the page that deals with alumni of the Miller band? I added the reference from Richard Sudhalter. Richard Sudhalter wrote a book called Lost Chords which is named in the reference. The subtitle however isn't. The subtitle is White Musicians and Their Contribution To Jazz. Sudhalter's thesis is that many great jazz musicians from the early to mid twentieth century have been forgotten because they were white. Sudhalter does a really good job of describing great musicians like Bobby Hackett and Ernie Caceres, for example. But the subtitle makes it sound like the book was written by the Ku Klux Klan. Many great jazz musicians from the early to mid twentieth century have been forgotten, but it's because people have lost interest in what was popular (jazz), not because the musicians were white. People in 2009 barely, if at all, know who Coleman Hawkins or Lester Young were. This also brings up a problem in writing about Glenn Miller. Popular music (and just about every other art form) in the thirties and forties was heavily segregated by skin color. If anyone reads the Gary Giddins article that is referenced in the paragraph where the Miller band makes it in 1939, Giddins does a very intelligent thing. He combines the review of a Miller cd with a review of a Fats Waller cd that came out at the same time, in 2004. He's trying to show that despite skin color (which would've been very important to audiences in the thirties and forties) they had more in common than differences. It's better to honestly reflect on what was the past instead of pretending things were different.24.167.105.97 (talk) 20:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Miller's depression problem[edit]

I've read and heard a few different times over the years that Glenn Miller had problems with depression. Has anyone else heard or read about this? The article mentions nothing about it. And yeah, I really do need some kind of response on this. --98.232.181.201 (talk) 08:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

In the Gary Giddins article from the New Yorker that is quoted in the Wikipedia article, Mr. Giddins says it seems (by conjecture) that if you read biographies of Miller, by the late thirties he was extremely bitter about how long it was taking for him to become a success in popular music. He had borrowed money from his in laws to help with the payroll of the band. The first band from 1937, especially caused a lot of problems with Miller because many of the musicians had drinking problems, drug problems or were irresponsible in how they lived their lives. Fine for them, but it was destructive to the band itself. In the George Simon book from 1974, Glenn Miller and His Orchestra, Miller seems very depressed during World War II, especially when he was stationed in England. Always a smoker, Miller began to chain smoke and ate badly and lost a lot of weight. Also he really wanted to see the two children that he and his wife adopted. I've always thought that none of the major bandleaders from Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey to Duke Ellington to Artie Shaw were especially happy people. If you read their memoirs or biographies, it doesn't come across that way. For example, when Duke Ellington's son Mercer, started his own band in the forties, Duke Ellington went out of his way to sabotage it. And Artie Shaw never seems happy, makes sarcastic references to the quality of other bands and was married eight times, none of them especially happy marriages, even to the last woman which lasted approximately twenty years. If Glenn Miller wasn't clinically depressed, he was often not the happiest man in the world, even when he was making phenemonal amounts of money and selling huge amounts of records.

Saying Miller was "clinically depressed" doesn't seem a fruitful thing to put in the article because in the early part of the twentieth century "clinical depression" wasn't the big concern it is in modern psychiatry. Doctors used Freudian psychology or shock treatment to deal with it. Also, mental illness had an even worse stigma than it does now, no celebrity would be open and candid about their drug addiction, let alone "depression problem" like they are in 2009. If you can find reputable sources that say Miller was clinically depressed, you should use them, but in my opinion not make it the focus of the article. This is a really long entry, I hope it helped.24.167.105.97 (talk) 16:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed; not to mention; it is probably enough to know that as a young man, and later as a newlywed, he was, as they say, "a starving artist". The movie showed him looking for the "Glenn Miller sound" which defined 'Swing' as a large band sound. The movie had the lead trumpet player busting his lip in dress rehearsal and a clarinet substituting to join six saxophones for the sound he sought for years. In the true-to-life movie, he wasn't paid enough in the Army to feed his young family, left to work in bands, finally left for to start his own band with a unique sound which he took a long time to develop, had stretches of no work, encouraged by his wife he pressed on and finally succeeded. It's a great and inspiring movie. As we know, he went back in the Army to serve. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Who is Don Wilhite?[edit]

In the part about the 1956 Glenn Miller orchestra, someone put in that Don Wilhite was a pianist with the band. Who is he? I can't find anything about him.24.167.105.97 (talk) 17:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello Lola and If I Could Be With You One Hour Tonight[edit]

If you want to hear what Glenn Miller sounded like with Coleman Hawkins and Gene Krupa in 1929, these two sides are available on the 2004 Centennial Hawkins compilation on RCA. Even though Miller thought little of his soloing ability, he does a decent job on these two sides.24.167.105.97 (talk) 15:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


Eleven Band Alumni[edit]

Does anyone find eleven band alumini too numerous to list? Just wondering. Other than Addison Collins, I wrote the majority of the band alumni section. If anyone finds the band alumni too numerous or some irrelevant, please make the appropriate changes. I'm thinking about George Siravo. He really was important to Frank Sinatra and Columbia records. And he really did arrange for the first Glenn Miller band. But between Sinatra and Miller, he's more known for Sinatra. People would be hard pressed to name a single arrangement he did for Miller. Billy May and JErry Gray come more to mind in people's minds.69.153.86.42 (talk) 22:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame[edit]

Can someone find a reference to Glenn Miller being inducted into the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame? I deleted the sentence that says he was inducted because nothing turned up on the web. On Google there is an entry for the Wikipedia that says Wikipedia's Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame was created and deleted at some point. Their website implies that it is a tribute band.24.167.105.97 (talk) 00:31, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is a reference that he was inducted in 1978 with others, "Louis Armstrong - Duke Ellington - Benny Goodman - Glenn Miller - Ella Fitzgerald" [1]Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame began in 1978 with five inductees, Glen Miller included! He was one of the charter inductee of the Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame. [2] —Are these sources 'notable' to WP? Where is the The Big Band and Jazz Hall of Fame website? Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:39, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Questions about the Bibliography[edit]

This is meant amicably but can someone please tell me the rationale for including these sources in the bibliography?:

Firestone, Ross (1998). Swing, Swing, Swing: The Life and Times of Benny Goodman. W.W. Norton. ISBN 9780393311686.

Miller, Glenn (1943). Glenn Miller's Method for Orchestral Arranging. NY: Mutual Music Society. ASIN: B0007DMEDQ

I don't think information was used from either source in the article.24.167.105.97 (talk) 00:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to try to redo the bibliography to add sources that were used in the article. Does anyone really want to keep the Ross Firestone source? I'm not going to touch it, but I don't see where the Firestone Benny Goodman book is used in the article.70.125.147.150 (talk) 17:47, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Bad Weather.[edit]

According to the "History Channel" reconstruction the weather was very bad the day of the flight and Glenn Miller was advised to delay for a few hours until the weather improved. He refused to do so and over the channel the aircraft wings iced up and the plane crashed into the English Channel.

The simple explanation is rarely good enough and there is a good living to be made writing conspiracy theory books.AT Kunene (talk) 09:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The Glenn Miller Story[edit]

The popular Jimmy Stewart film mentioned only in passing in this article. Could do with a verdict on how faithful the story was, and any comments from the surviving band members. 86.144.199.247 (talk) 00:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

What year was The Glenn Miller Story released? TCM says production was in 1953 and it was released in 1954, IMBD says released 1953.70.125.135.72 (talk) 01:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I came to this page planning to post a suggestion that somebody put up the classic photo of Miller in his rimless eyeglasses looking back over his shoulder holding trombone. The original version of the movie has a scene where he looks back at June Allyson mimicking that very image and commenting that he needs glasses. (Was he not wearing them in earlier scenes?) But that scene was cut out of a later movie version -- undoubtedly edited by somebody not really familiar with him. Casey (talk) 20:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

why is this article a b article?[edit]

What would take this article up to an A class article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.125.147.150 (talk) 07:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

A-class articles are done on a project basis by performing a project review. It is not widely used and not all projects have A-class reviews, though the military history project, of which this article is a member, does. You could instead propose it for a Good Article or Featured Article status which is more widely used than A-class. Keith D (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. I was under the mistaken impression that there was an A status.70.125.147.150 (talk) 17:52, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

MIA vs. Dead?[edit]

The section on his disappearance alternately refers to Miller as both MIA and dead. I'm not a military terminology expert by any means. If he's officially MIA, then is it appropriate to refer to his death when we don't know that for sure? Alternately, if he's been officially listed as dead, then the line about being MIA seems inaccurate. Thoughts? B.Rossow · talk 15:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

And yes, I realize it's probably mostly a moot point since he'd be well over 100 years old by now were he still alive. I'm just curious about the appropriateness of the terminology in that section. B.Rossow · talk 15:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I say: MIA. I added information from the Arlington cemetary website and made it into a footnote with the MIA date on it. 70.125.135.72 (talk) 06:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Miller's supposed fluency in German?[edit]

Could someone with a published biography of Miller pse check with regard to his knowledge of German? This is touched upon in the article and I've seen it elsewhere. However, the recordings of his broadcasts to Germany reveal someone speaking hesitantly and, according to [3], reading from a phonetic script. The Wiki article does not touch upon any German ancestry (was the family name originally Müller?). Even so, many immigrants soon lost the language of their ancestors, even if their parents spoke it. It would be interesting to clear this point up. Mikeo1938 (talk) 20:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect formatting?[edit]

Why does this entry not link to anything?: Maj. Glenn Miller Army Air Force Band Printable Fact Sheet 12.91.193.250 (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Because the link is to edit the section of this article. Where should it go to? Keith D (talk) 21:22, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

objectivity[edit]

How come "objectivity" gets a low ranking, when people critique this page with stars? The reactions in the article range from Louis Armstrong adoring the Glenn Miller sound to Artie Shaw openly disparaging it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.136.50.233 (talk) 22:40, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, but at a guess it is the over-emphasis on the uninteresting posturings of jazz theorists in the critical reception section. Greglocock (talk) 06:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)