Talk:Gore-Tex

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Previous discussions without headers[edit]

Anon User:80.202.194.186 initiated a page move via Cut-n-paste to 'Gore-tex', which was a good call, if not quite handled right. In fact the registered trade name appears to be fully capitalised as 'GORE-TEX ®' - the full-caps is a bit beyond the pale, but including the hyphen a capitalising each half looks like a common compromise. - Solipsist 23:29, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

first use paragraph[edit]

In a recent rewrite, User:195.75.97.226 removed the paragraph;

The first commercial Gore-Tex product was a tent called the Light Dimension that was created and sold by the Seattle firm, Early Winters, Ltd., in 1976.

presumably because this wasn't actually the first use of Gore-Tex. It might be better to correctly qualify this statement ('first consumer product' or what have you), or replace it with a description of whatever was the first product. -- Solipsist 7 July 2005 08:57 (UTC)

This paragraph should not have been removed.
The first commercial/consumber use of Gore-Tex laminated fabrics WAS a 3-pound tend called the Light Dimension. This product was created by the Seattle firm of Early Winters, Ltd. -- FloweringHearth 02:06, 14 July 2005

I tend to agree, but I don't know the history. The passage was removed by an anon who may have been associated with the company. They also expanded the list of applications well beyond waterproof fabrics. It is possible that technically the first commercial use of Gore-Tex was in one of these other fields, or it might have been this tent, I wouldn't know. However it seems like the tent should still be mentioned, as that is likely to be the first use that most people would be aware of. So lets reinsert it with the qualification 'first commercial consumer product'. -- Solipsist 06:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that this could interest the reader a LOT...[edit]

  • What is their relation to DuPont? *

Going back to 1944, we remember that the PTFE (Teflon(R)) is a PATENT, which - to my knowledge - is still active. So not all and sundry can make use of PTFE. (I reckon that when your wives buy Teflon (R) pans, they do PAY for the patent {it's included in the price of the product}). So DuPont should be doing a sort of joint-venture with them, not? Given the fact that Gore got a couple of prizes donated by DuPont. Not Gore has invented the technologies, DuPont (better: one of their employees) had (back in 1938). Does anyone have a little more insight and can add this to the article? Thanks.

    • This sounds unlikely, most patents have a term of twenty years, so the dates don't add up. Normally the only way to effectively patent for longer, is to take out additional patents on improvements or ancillary processes. Even then the original patent would have expired so it is only an effective technique if it is no longer commercial viable to use the original method. However, if you have verifiable sources, it could be added to the article. -- Solipsist 21:24, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Also, I believe Gore-Tex is ePTFE, or expanded PTFE, which may qualify for a unique patent separate from Teflon.

Patents and History of GORE-TEX[edit]

Also, I believe Gore-Tex is ePTFE, or expanded PTFE, which may qualify for a unique patent separate from Teflon.

The Gore-Tex product was filed as a spearate patent in the 1970s.

Gore-Tex is more of a processed PTFE than a new product. I would doubt that Gore Jr. would have gone to all the trouble of manufacturing his own stash of Teflon for the purpose of his research into the production of a fabric from Teflon -- he would have bought the base material. Gore-Tex is more of a process of a patented material than a copy of a product. Any licensing of the raw material would have been paid when the raw goods were purchased.

I remember reading or hearing (somewhere) back in the 1990's that the discovery was a bit of a fluke. The fable goes something like this. Bob Gore was trying to draw (pull) Teflon samples into a more manageable fibre. Several ranges of heat and slow speeds were tested, and none of the combinations gave positive results. Every time he tried to pull it, the sample would give a small elastic yield, and then break. In a late-night moment of frustration, he pulled a handful of samples from the heater and ripped them apart, only to find that the sample did not break, but was actually drawn to a smaller diameter.

I can't find a citation for this but I'm curious as to whether this is just a geeky urban legend or some semblance of truth.

This is appartently the truth. At least it was related like this in a court hearing in the US a number of years ago.I like skateboarding.

Similar products[edit]

I'd like to see a listing of similar products that behave the same way as Gore-Tex. Gary 22:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Name of Inventor[edit]

Somebody has corrected the name of the co-inventor from Wilbert L. to William. I think he was a Wilbert - but this should be checked 38presdales 10:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 38presdales (talkcontribs) 10:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Cray 1[edit]

In a talk at the COmputer History Museum about the Cray 1 (available at http://www.computerhistory.org/events/index.php?id=1157047505 ) it was asserted that Bob Gore invented Gore-Tex to improve the wire insulation for the Cray 1.

87.74.19.152 10:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, I saw it at youtube video J9kobkqAicU time index 0:12:02. I'd also like to know more about that. The talker, mr. Burton Smith, said that "Bob Gore invented for Seymour [Cray]", but it was unclear to me if it was a figure of speech or a real fact. His powerpoint slide said that Gore-Tex was invented "to make signals travel faster in machines like Cray 1", since its dielectric constant is much less than that of more dense materials. But wouldn't the invention date of 1969 place Gore-Tex a year or so before Seymour Cray started his company? Or was it "invented for Seymour" when mr. Cray was still working for Control Data Corporation? 91.157.87.20 (talk) 21:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Trivia section tag added[edit]

I've tagged it because there's absolutely no reason for an article about textiles to have three separate references to one television show (Sienfeld). Please clean up or just delete. Todd Vierling 00:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree and have taken the bold step of deleting the entire section. I don't believe this section is particularly noteworthy or interesting to the majority of people and does not add to an article about a technical fabric. Gore-Tex clothing is used by many people and as such of course it is featured on TV shows, in movies and in computer games. The list of such uses could grow indefinitely. You wouldn't include a list of every time someone wore Nike trainers on the Nike page would you? (the rap artist may be an exception, but that is included by the "did you mean?" link at the top) Djcunning 11:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Breathable?[edit]

Wouldn't that make them poor insulators, allowing your body heat to escape?.. wouldn't that make Gore-tex only good for raincoats but poor for winter coats? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

-- "Breathable" means "water vapour transits" not "wind passes through". A breathable fabric is a better insulator, as trapped sweat reduces the insulating value on the air inside insulation layers and costs the body evaporation energy. Umptious (talk) 14:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I've found some more info on the breathability level of Gore-Tex here: http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/breathability.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.26.143.8 (talk) 06:04, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

yumyumyum[edit]

Boots taste yummy? Is this relevant? (i'd say they're slightly chewy myslf) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.84.132 (talk) 10:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


General revision[edit]

Old version of the page was (as tagged) virtually an ad for Goretex. I've added realistic comparisons with alternatives, product development history, instructions on cleaning, company revenue, and safety info on breathability and hypothermia.Umptious (talk) 18:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think this whole page is unduly critical of Gore-Tex. I have been engaging in outdoor activities all my life and always found Gore-Tex to be superior to alternative waterproof breathable fabrics. I also object specifically to the statement that triple-ply Gore-Tex is inferior to the two-ply variety. In my experience, jackets where the Gore-Tex is double laminated are actually both more waterproof and more breathable, perhaps because the actual Gore-Tex membrane is kept clean. --Ilnyckyj (talk) 23:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

nope not relevent whts so ever —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.49.233 (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Ad tagging[edit]

Don't have time myself to check this article but it seems it may be time to re-evaluate if it still merits the advertising tag placed in June 2008. If it's getting better (unaware of previous incarnations of the article, myself) or closer to being more Wiki-compliant, some further work could allow a Wikipedian to remove the tag. - Ageekgal (talk) 15:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems okay now, so I removed it. ENeville (talk) 01:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

PU inner[edit]

The original article claiming to basically debunk the effectiveness of gore-tex fabric, citing that it's the less breathable PU inner layer that does the work, is from 1984. I dare say that it's likely they've improved the technology since then. Gore's web site claims that the inner layer has an "oil-resistant coating" - similar to eVent. I don't know the truth of this matter but it seems to be worth investigating. My anecdotal experience doesn't line up with the gore-tex as giant scam story, which seems to be the main thrust of this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.180.200 (talk) 04:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The "PU innner" story has some validity. This layer is present & does perform the function of protecting the ePTFE layer from contamination/damage; also it is monolithic (i.e. no vapour transfer though it), hydrophilic & does require moisture to condense on its surfance in order to pass through it.

However it is not a "scam" per se, Gore's ePTFE membrane allowed the PU layer to be far thinner than had previously been necessary & consequently much improved rates of moisture transfer were achieved, operating (for lack of a more apt comparison) somewhat like the cavity between tent skins. This technology has been improved but the principal operation of each layer remains unchanged. eVent chose not to use a PU layer but to coat the ePTFE on a micro level resulting in a product that is empirically more breathable but requires more involved maintenance if the contamination problems, as discovered by Gore, are not to impinge on this performance.

It's the PU liner doing the work. Gore tries to dance around this, but after you've had the jacket and worn and washed it, it is not the Teflon stopping the rain, it is the PU. Perhaps the PTFE enables a thinner layer of PU, but I have not seen this exactly proved (and Gore is somewhat reluctant to prove this, as they like to stick with the confusion that the Teflon is actually functioning as a water barriar).
Article has some confusion of Gore-Tex the brand with PTFE/PU fabrics (now off brand and made by other companies as well as Gore). Then things like basic uses of Teflon or even expanded PTFE are not the same as laminated fabrics. And then Gore-Tex is actually a "system" as tape is required of vendors and all that. Whole thing is complicated and just calling somethin "Gore-Tex" can be a misnomer...TCO (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

In response to similar observations as above, I marked the article for a neutrality check. The inclusion of criticisms of the product are not relevant. Naturally, a competitor of Gore will imply that Gore-Tex is an inferior product. The inclusion of the Slate article was an isolated lash-out against a patent holder and is not merited in the section it was posted in. The citation wasn't neutral and didn't add to an understanding of the product. I don't know how best to change the article, but I would appreciate some further discussion along this train of thought so we can clean up the page. Grantismo (talk) 18:08, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Not a fabric[edit]

Gore-tex is not a fabric. Fabrics consist of threads and are woven, knitted tec. Gore-tex is a foil or liner.

Forthcoming Revisions[edit]

GoreArchives is the user name for a small group of archivists involved in collecting and preserving the history of W. L. Gore and Associates. This team collects images, documents, books, brochures and product samples related to Gore’s past and present. We plan to make edits and corrections to this article in the future, particularly in reference to the origin of the GORE-TEX trade name and its past application to many Gore products. As archivists, it is our goal to provide the most accurate information about W.L. Gore & Associates, its history, culture, and products. Revisions to this article by GoreArchives will strive to be balanced and objective.

The GORE-TEX trade name is most commonly associated with Gore’s waterproof breathable laminates, however it was first used for a wide range of Gore products derived from expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE). Robert Gore discovered ePTFE in 1969 ( See W.L. Gore and Associates). A white, pliable polymer, it can be processed into many forms such as thin films or membranes, tubes, tapes and fibers. By the 1980s, the company used ePTFE in such diverse products as wire and cable insulation, industrial filters, vascular grafts and laminated fabrics, many sharing the same GORE-TEX trademark. In 2010, Gore still employs ePTFE in most of its products however the GORE-TEX trademark is primarily directed towards the company’s fabric products and a select number of medical implants like GORE-TEX sutures and GORE-TEX vascular grafts.GoreArchives (talk) 01:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning this. Please read WP:COI. Anything you want to add should be WP:V. Independent publishing is preferred. See WP:RS. Also see WP:NPOV. You can discuss/propose changes here to make sure your edits are in the interest of the encyclopedia. Thanks. -Shootbamboo (talk) 23:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

As per the above discussion item, GoreArchives soon will be making edits to improve the historical accuracy of this article. These edits will correct and enhance the patent information in the introductory paragraph and will expand upon the History and Manufacture section of the article.GoreArchives (talk) 20:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I encourage you to propose specific changes here. Thank you for declaring your COI, as that is strongly encouraged. =) -Shootbamboo (talk) 23:14, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

As noted on March 30, 2011, we would like to revise the introductory paragraph for this article as follows-- Gore-Tex is a registered trademark of W. L. Gore and Associates that applies to products made from expanded polytetrafluoroethylene (ePTFE). Membranes made from ePTFE are laminated onto textiles to create waterproof/breathable fabrics used in consumer, industrial and military apparel. Gore also manufactures Gore-Tex vascular grafts from ePTFE for replacement of diseased human arteries (see peripheral vascular disease). It also produces Gore-Tex sutures made from ePTFE fiber for surgical procedures.

Expanded PTFE was discovered in 1969 by Robert W. Gore, son of Wilbert L. Gore, while he was researching a process for stretching PTFE into pipe thread tape. Robert Gore was granted U.S. Patent 3,953,566 on April 27, 1976, for a process by which a porous form of polytetrafluoroethylene with a micro-structure characterized by nodes interconnected by fibrils could be produced. Gore was also granted U.S. Patent 4,187,390 on February 5, 1980 as a continuation of the original patent in which specific articles made from ePTFE were cited. Numerous product patents by Robert Gore followed, including U.S. Patent 4,194,041 for waterproof laminates.

For this body of work, Robert W. Gore was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame in 2006.[1]

We also plan to expand the History and Manufacture section to clarify the discovery of expanded PTFE and explain the fact that the Gore-Tex trademark initially applied to a wide range of products, not just laminated fabric. The revised section would read as follows:

Robert Gore’s discovery in 1969 followed a series of unsuccessful experiments in which he was attempting to stretch rods of PTFE by about 10% in order to make pipe thread tape. As it turned out, the right conditions for stretching PTFE were counter intuitive. Instead of slowly stretching the heated material, he applied a sudden, accelerating yank that unexpectedly caused it to stretch about 800%. This resulted in the transformation of the solid PTFE into a microporous structure that was about 70% air.

The company initially referred to this new material as “fibrillated PTFE”. In 1970, Robert Wiltbank, an advertising specialist working for Gore, proposed the trade name of “Gore-Tex” for the new material. By 1980, W. L. Gore and Associates had applied the name to a variety of products developed from expanded PTFE that included tubing, fibers, membranes, tapes and gaskets. (Source will be footnoted as follows: Gore, Robert W. The Early Days of W. L. Gore & Associates, Inc. (Newark, DE: Published by the Author, 2008): 90-95. This book is in the collection of the Archives of W. L. Gore & Associates, Inc., Newark, DE.)

PTFE is made using an emulsion polymerization process that utilizes the fluorosurfactant PFOA,[3][4] a persistent environmental contaminant. As Gore-Tex products are PTFE-based, PFOA is present in the starting material for those products.[5]GoreArchives (talk) 18:15, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for posting that. Let me ask you a question please. The only source you are proposing to add to support the new material is located at W.L. Gore & Associates, Inc.? If so, this book isn't something I think would be verifiable. We don't necessarily mind self-published things but other people need to be able to verify this source. Reliable sources we use here include scientific journals, books (that one could find in libraries), newspapers, etc. How about you re-publish whatever you think is important from that book on your company website and then Wikipedia could borrow from the website as is seen fit. How does this all sound? Thanks again for your post here. Shootbamboo (talk) 03:08, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Pores per square inch[edit]

Darn it - I was wrong:

\frac{\text{9 billion pores}}{\text{square inch}} * \frac{\text{1 square inch}}{\text{6.4516 square centimeters}} \approx \frac{\text{1.4 billion pores}}{\text{square centimeter}}

Sorry for all the confusion. GoingBatty (talk) 18:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Me too. I should avoid edits involving the maths. The Interior (Talk) 18:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

General article issues[edit]

1. The recommendations from Gore Archives are basically good ones (correct content and more informative than what we have). I probably have some RSes that discuss Gore from afar. This whole article could use some work to get it up to speed. Kinda concerned that we could not get the April 2011 interaction to some positive effect.

2. Article coverage. This is a good topic for an article, but is trying to cover too much and getting itself wrapped up with issues of the brand being different from materials. Wiki has no article on ePTFE. We should have a separate one because (a) it is very much a different structure (just the expanded PTFE) than a fabric laminate or even the PU/PTFE combination in Gore-Tex. (b) it has uses that have nothing to do with textiles (e.g. filtration). (c) It has been off patent for 15 years and there is significant production (and a market) for ePTFE from 2 other major US producers and from the Chinese. (This is not to sell Gore short, obviously Bob started the whole shebang and they are still a gorilla in the WPB space!) I propose to make a new additional article on just ePTFE.

3. Wiki lacks an article on fabric lamination (a huge industry). I propose to make one.

4. We do have an article on waterproof fabrics (covering both impermeable PVC raincoats and waterproof breathables laminates). Not a very good article, by the way. I propose to leave that as is, in terms of article coverage choices. If it ever grew, we could think about a split. But it works as is.

5. We really ought to have an article on waterproof breathable films (themselves), but I am not going to make that now. I guess it could be a section in waterproof fabrics. But we should list PU, PTFE, PU/PTFE 2 layer, Hytrel, eVent.

TCO (Reviews needed) 23:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Who is John W. Cropper?[edit]

The first paragraph in the history section details John W. Cropper and his machine for stretching PTFE but it's not clear how he's related to the invention of Gore-Tex. I think he needs to be tied into the story... Gsoper (talk) 12:46, 21 November 2013 (UTC)