Talk:Gospel

Francesco Carotta

... has some interesting ideas about Biblical history ... interesting in a way that I think is the fringe of the fringe. There is thus a vote for deletion here. Those of you who are knowledgable and care about Biblical history, please check it out. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Content fork

Good news (Christianity) is forked from here and should be merged back after being corrected for WP:OR. Objections? Agreement? -- Secisek (talk) 10:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not a contributor to this article, except for the image I added. I do not think it should be merged. The four Gospels are not the same as the "Good News", which is identified by some Protestants in all of the books of the Bible. The message of the Gospel is not the same thing as a book that is a Gospel. If you are going to merge it, perhaps Law and Gospel is a better option?--192.160.64.49 (talk) 01:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I think these articles are different enough that they should be kept separate. The Gospel article refers to a set of works with religious and historical significance, while the Good news (Christianity) article is about the Christian interpretation of the canonical subset of gospels. LovesMacs (talk) 01:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't merge. "Gospel" is a neutral, objective term that can be used descriptively by scholars of any or no faith to refer to a specific collection of books of the Christian Bible. While "Good News" can and should be described objectively in its own article, in actual usage it carries non-neutral POV implications; it refers to a Christian attitude toward the message of Jesus. A non-Christian scholar would not use "Good News" descriptively, and not all Christians use the term. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:57, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't merge. I found the article in question by typing "gospel" into the search box. It would never have occurred to me to type "good news." Ctmctm (talk) 22:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I concur Alice (talk) 23:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree not to merge. I find this article complete and succinct in itself. I think it becomes diffused with the Good news (Christianity) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itchjones (talk • contribs) 15:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

After many months, it seems that the general agreement is NOT to merge. And I also think no merge, so let us agree that "no merge" was the conclusion. I will remove the flag. History2007 (talk) 23:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Generic term "gospel" in popular culture

Should this article address the use of the term "gospel" as a generic term? Does "gospel" generically mean "opinion", "dogma", "enlightenment", "doctrine" etc.? I suggest this article should include an exploration of the generic concept "gospel" as well as its roots in Christianity.Mrrealtime (talk) 13:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

wikipedia article comparing the 4 gospels

Is there anybody out there interested in the idea of making a wikipedia article comparing the 4 gospels? Here is the rough draft:

Mathew (and Mark)	Luke 1	Luke 2	John
			In the beginning was the Word
	Zechariah sees Gabriel and becomes mute. Elizabeth becomes pregnant. hides 5 months
angel tells Joseph to marry Mary	Mary sees Gabriel. Mary goes to Zechariahs house. stays 3 months
John born. Zechariah speaks. Jesus born in Bethlehem. Magi go to Jerusalem then Bethlehem.	Jesus born in Bethlehem. laid in manger. shepherds come to see him.
	on the 8th day they go to Jerusalem. Simeon and Anna. Go to Egypt. Go to Nazareth.
	when Jesus was 12 he is accidently left behind in Jerusalem.
John the Baptist in the wilderness	in 15th year of Tiberius, John preaches in country around Jordon.		Bethany beyond Jordon. John baptises.
Baptism of Jesus	baptism of Jesus		Baptism of Jesus
			Andrew, Peter, Philip follow Jesus. Fig tree. Wedding in Cana. Went to Capernaum for a few days.
fasted 40 days in desert. (as Moses was 40 years in desert before Exodus, the first Passover)	fasted 40 days in desert
temptation	temptation		went to Jerusalem for Passover. Nicodemus.
John in prison	(John imprisoned for rebuking Herod over Herodias)		argument between Johns disciples and a Certain Jew. the Phairisees heard that Jesus baptised more than John.
Jesus goes to Capernaum			Jesus passes through Samaria. Samaritan woman. (four months to harvest?)
calls Simon, Andrew, James, John from their boats
preaching & healing in Galilee
Beautitudes (as one having authority)		Beautitudes. then went to Capernaum
leper healed
paralyzed servant of Centurion in Capernaum healed by a word		servant of Centurion in Capernaum healed by word	Cana. Son of royal official sick in Capernaum.
(mark only) demon possessed man in synagogue.	demon possessed man in synagogue
Peters house. mothers fever.	Peters house. mothers fever
at evening many demon possessed healed with a word	at evening demon possessed healed by laying on hands
	at daybreak, went to solitary places
		John asks 'are you the one coming'? dinner in Pharisees house. sinful woman. throughout towns and villages with 12.
Let the dead bury the dead. Crosses the lake. rebuked storm on lake	orders peter to put out into deep water and let his net down. great catch of fish.	rebukes the storm
2 demon possessed men		sailed to Gerasenes. healed man possessed by legion.
came to 'his town'. paralytic on mat	heals paralytic on mat		Jerusalem. Feast of the Jews. invalid on mat at pool of bethesda
called Levi	called levi at his booth
dinner at Levi's house. Sinners came and ate with him. Parisees ask why do you eat with sinners? Johns disciples ask why do you not fast? ruler asked him to raise his dead daughter.	great banquet at levis house. Pharisees ask 'why do you eat with sinners' and 'why do you not fast'?	Jairus, ruler of synagogue, asks him to heal his dying daughter.
woman bleeding for 12 years		woman bleeding for 12 years
raises dead girl		raises dead girl
indoors. heals 2 blind men. heals demon possessed mute. crowd amazed. pharisees said he drives out demons by beelzebub.
went throughaut towns and villages. harvest is plentiful.
gave the 12 authority to heal. sent them out.		gave the 12 authority to heal. sent them out.
went on to Galilee
John asks 'are you the one coming'?
woe to you Korazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum.
grainfields on the sabbath	(grainfields on the sabbath)
shriveled hand in synagogue
Pharisees plot to kill Jesus. Jensus withdrew. went incognito.
healed demon possessed blind mute. Pharisees say 'by beelzebub'. kingdom divided. blasphemy against the spirit.
no sign except the sign of Jonah
mother and brothers stood outside
that same day, by the lake. the parable of the sower, of the weeds, of the mustard seed
into house. exp0ained the parables. parable of hidden treasure, of the net.
came to his hometown. A prophet without honor.
Herod said 'John has risen from the dead'.
Jesus withdrew to a solitary place. at evening, fed 5000		Apostles returned. withdrew to Bethsaida. fed 5000	fed 5000. Passover was near.
walked on water			walks on water
landed at Gennesaret. all the sick were brought to him.
Pharisees came from Jerusalem. eating with unwashed hands does not make one unclean.			teaching in synagogue in Capernaum. Jesus says 'I am the bread of life' & 'Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life'. many disciples leave.
Jesus withdrew to Tyre and Sidon. healed demon possessed daughter of Canaanite woman
went along the Sea of Galilee to mountainside. sick were brought to him. fed 4000
went to Magadan by boat. Pharisees ask for a sign. no sign given but the sign of Jonah. Jesus left them.
beware the yeast of the Pharisees
Caesarea Philippi. Who do men say I am? Keys of kingdom of heaven promised to Peter (the rock).		praying in private. Who do men say I am?
began to tell disciples that son of man must suffer and die and be raised on 3rd day.		warned them not to tell anyone that the son of man must suffer and die and be raised
transfiguration		transfiguration
Elijah has already come
heals boy that disciples couldnt
came together in Galilee. told them son of man must suffer.
in Capernaum. paid the tax collectors
disciples ask 'who is the greatest'? parable of the lost sheep. forgive brother 77 times. parable of the unmerciful servant.			feast of tabernacles. Taught openly. Woman taken in adultery. I am the light of the world. Blind man washed in pool of Siloam then taken before Pharisees. feast of dedication
Judea beyond Jordon. healed large crowds. Pharisees ask 'is divorse lawful'? little children brought to hum. young man told that 'only God is good'. told to sell all his possessions. parable of workers in vineyard.			Judea beyond Jordon. lazarus. Caiaphas prophecies his death. withdrew to village named Ephraim near the desert.
on his way to Jerusalem. son of man will be betrayed. Zebedees sons ask to sit on his right and left.
leaving Jericho. healed 2 blind men.
			Bethany. Mary and Martha. Perfume.
triumphal entry.			triumphal entry
Bethany. home of Simon the leper. woman with alabaster jar of perfume.
Judas goes to chief priests. paid 30 silver coins		Passove was near. Judas goes to chief priests. given money.
1st day of unleavened bread. Last supper		Day of unleavened bread on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. last supper	Just before the Passover feast. Evening meal being served. washes disciples feet. Judas leaves.
Mount of Olives. Peter vows he will never disown him		went as usual to Mount of Olives.	Peter vows he will never disown him. Jesus prayed.
Gethsemane. Peter and sons of Zebedee sleep.		the 'place'. withdrew a stones throw away. prayed. angel strengthened him. disciples slept	Crossed the Kidron valley to an olive grove.
Judas arrives with large armed crowd. kisses him. Jesus arrested.		Judas arrives with a crowd. tries to kiss him.	Judas arrives leading a detachment of soldiers.
Taken to Caiaphas and elders. trial. Peter denies him.		House of high priest. Peter denies him. mocked and beaten	Taken to Annas father-in-law of Caiaphas.
		daybreak. council of elders. are you the Christ. 'I am'.	High priest questions Jesus. Peter denies him.
Taken to Pilate. Judas throws blood money into temple.		Taken to Pilate.	Taken to Palace of Pilate. early morning. (Jews avoided entering so they could eat the Passover)
		Taken to Herod. mocked. dressed in scarlet rode.	Pilate flogs Jesus. soldiers make crown of thorns. cloth him in scarlet robe. 'hail king of the jews'.
Pilates wife warns him. Pilate releases Barabbas.		Pilate releases Barabbas.
Praetorium. scarlet robe. mocked by soldiers.			the stone pavement (Gabbatha). Pilate sits at judges seat. 'here is your king'.
Simon of Cyrene carries cross to Golgotha.		Simon of Cyrene carries cross to place called 'the skull'. weep for yourselves	carries own cross to place of the skull (Golgotha).
offered wine and gall. crucified. cast lots for cloths. sign reads 'this is Jensus. the king of the jews'. 2 robbers. one an right and one on left		crucified with 2 criminals. one on right and one on left. cast lots for cloths. offered wine vinegar. sign read 'this is the king of the jews'. 'you will be with me in paradise'.	crucified with 2 others. one on each side. sign reads 'Jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews'. outer garments divided into 4. undergarment cast lots for. mother. mothers sister. mary widfe of clopas. magdalene.
darkness from 6th to 9th hour		darkness from 6th to 9th hour. curtain torn in 2.
my God why have you forsaken me. offered wine vinegar. others said 'lets see if elijah saves him'. cried out and died		'into your hands I commit my spirit'. died.	'I am thirsty'. drank wine vinegar. 'It is finished'. It was the day of preparation before special sabbath. broke legs of other 2. pierced side of Jesus.
curtain torn in 2. earth shook. many dead raised to life.
Joseph of Arimathea buries him in his tomb.		Joseph from Aramathea (a member of the council) laid body in fresh tomb.	Joseph of Aramathea (secret disciple) with Nicodemas laid body in new tomb in garden at place of crucifixion.
next day, tomb sealed. guard posted		prepared spices and perfumes.
after sabbath. first day of week. Mary and Magdalene.		very early on first day of week	early on first day while still dark magdalene.
angel descends from heaven and rolls away stone. guards pass out.		the women found the stone rolled away. 2 men in white. women tell but arent believed.	found stone rolled away. told Peter that body was missing. Peter runs to tomb. finds it empty. Peter leaves
Women leave but meet Jesus. He tells them to go to Galilee.			Mary stays at tomb. sees Jesus. tells disciples.
		same day. 2 going to village of Emmaus meet Jesus. near evening they recognize him.returned to Jerusalem. told that Jesus had appeared te Simon. Jesus himself appears before them	evening of first day Jesus appears among the disciples behind locked door. A week later he appears to all with Thomas present.
		Jesus leads them to Bethany. taken up into heaven.
Galilee. disciples see Jesus.			Jesus appears on shore as the disciples fish

Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 22:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

It could be added as a table in its own right, but not to this article - too long. (Check also to see that it hasn't already been done) (1) Why do you join Mark with Matthew, and split Luke in two? Looks odd; (2) Might be useful to add the normal names of the various pericopes (e.g., Massacre of the Innocents) - this would help readers link to the relevant articles. PiCo (talk) 03:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is already there: Gospel harmony. I am going to make it consistent with tables elsewhere within a month. History2007 (talk) 23:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Jewish vs Christian views of Creation

There is an article on Creation according to the Book of Genesis that discusses creation. There is a suggestion now to rename it and give it a Biblical name that may overlap with the New Testamant. I think that will mix differing views, but not being an expert on all of the topics, I think clarifications on that will be helpful here: Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Requested_move_.28as_a_way_to_resolve_every_reasonable_concern.29

Your comments will be appreciated. History2007 (talk) 14:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested moves: Gospel → Gospels

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Gospel → Gospels — As any look at the subheadings will show, this article is about the gospels (various docuements), not the Gospel— also known as the Good news (such as Paul uses the term in 2 Corinthians 11:4), nor about "gospel" as genre (such as the Epistle article is). ^{Carlaude:Talk} 02:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Article titles are normally singular. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. The singular is very well attested: "gospel accounts," "Gospel according to..." etc. StAnselm (talk) 02:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose For the reasons given above. -- S Masters (talk) 05:19, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Gospel is one, in four versions

Gospel means good news, and there is only one good news, so it is more precise to refer to the different versions of the gospel as the gospel according to Mark, according to Matthew, according to Luke and according to John.

Please note that the word "Gospel" is Old English for "Good news" thanks. Alan347 (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Recently came out a female scholar, certain Sara Hermon, that has written a book " The Galileus Gospel" (italian language). She claims to have been a pupil of prof. Morton Smith, maybe by mailing because she lived in Europe and not in USA; anyway, it seems they met sometimes in England many years ago. We don't know if Hermon's book is fiction or reality, but it's amazing how many similarities the novel shows, compared to Smith hypothesis about the missing and secret Mark gospel. (An italian reader of "The Galileus Gospel" by Sara Hermon). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.21.121 (talk) 12:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Gospel Dates

The chronology of the gospels is most often set by references in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 where Jesus foretells the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Most historians, being unwilling to admit to the possibility of true foreknowledge, explain this away by simply dating the gospels to a time after these events. An analysis of the gospels themselves gives an entirely different timeline.

Within the book of Acts, written by Luke, the narration changes from past tense to present tense in the form of a narrative beginning in the 27^th chapter. Luke begins telling the story as if he were there using “we” or “us” rather than before when Luke declares that Paul did this or Paul said that. The book of Acts stops suddenly with Paul in prison in Rome and no other details are forthcoming from Luke. This indicates that Luke is with Paul in Rome and writes his account, the book of Acts, up to the present time where the narrative stops. At this point, Paul in prison in Rome, can be no later than 50-55AD. The book of Acts also asserts, in the first chapter, that it is written after the Gospel of Luke, as a second edition or second writing to continue the earlier work.

The Gospel of Luke must have been written some time before the book of Acts. This indicates a date in the 40-50AD range. The beginning of the Gospel of Luke mentions the writings of previous works concerning the life and ministry of Jesus thus indicating the existence of works predating the Gospel of Luke. These would presumably be Matthew and Mark ,and perhaps others such as the lost Gospel of Hebrews. Some passages from Luke and Matthew obviously use Mark as reference text (or they have a common reference) indicating Mark was written around 40AD or earlier. This date is only a decade after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Mark is the name of the “son” of the Apostle Peter and many believe Mark was writing as the scribe of his father’s account – perhaps the first of the Gospel accounts of Jesus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joenitwit (talk • contribs) 22:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.Hellbound Hound (talk) 04:11, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Harmonies section

Not sure why one recent harmony gets special mention -- there have been many over the years... AnonMoos (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Gospel of the Hebrews section renamed Jewish-Christian Gospels

• I have renamed this section and added the MAIN tag since to cover all 3:

Main articles: Jewish-Christian Gospels, Gospel of the Nazarenes, Gospel of the Ebionites, and Gospel of the Hebrews

• And have added the paragraph:

Epiphanius, Jerome and other early church fathers preserve in their writings citations from one or more Jewish-Christian Gospels, versions of Matthew used by Ebionites and Nazarenes. Most modern critical scholars consider that the extant citations suggest at least two and probably three distinct Jewish-Christian versions of Matthew, and that the source language of these is probably Greek. A minority of scholars, including Edward Nicholson (1879) and James R. Edwards (2009) have suggested that the surviving citations are all from one Gospel, which is, as Jerome himself records that the Nazarenes claimed, the original, and Hebrew, Gospel of Matthew.

• The existing paragraphs have been W:Preserved in their entirety:

______________________________________________________________________________

Origen said the first Gospel was written by Matthew. This Gospel was composed in Hebrew near Jerusalem for Hebrew Christians and translated into Greek, but the Greek copy was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. Matthew's Gospel was called the Gospel according to the Hebrews or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles

Recent studies of the external evidence, shows that there existed among the Nazarene and Ebionite Communities, a gospel commonly referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews. It was written in Aramaic and its authorship was attributed to St. Matthew. Indeed the Fathers of the Church, while the Gospel of the Hebrews was still being circulated and read, referred to it always with respect, often with reverence. The Early Church Fathers (Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus Origen, Jerome etc.) all made reference to this gospel of Matthew. ___________________________________________________

Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 07:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The first gospels : Duplication / OR / Cut Paste?

I have tagged this section. It appears to be composed of cut and paste and in different forms has appeared on over a dozen other articles. ......................

• 28 October

BEFORE 28 Oct 2010

First Gospels It is generally accepted by most scholars that the first gospel to be written was the Gospel according to Mark, although a minority argue in favour of Matthew. The hypothesis that the Gospel of Mark was the first written of the canonical gospels is known as Markan priority. According to the two-source hypothesis the authors of the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke used the Gospel of Mark among other sources in writing their gospels. Another source held to be used by Matthew and Luke which is evidence in similarly content not found in Mark is known as Q document, which most scholars believe was a written document. The two-gospel hypothesis, in contrast, says that Matthew the Apostle wrote Matthew, and then Luke the Evangelist wrote Luke (with Matthew's gospel being the primary source) which was then followed by the writing of Mark's gospel by Mark the Evangelist. This theory uses both internal evidence (such as sentence structure) and external evidence (such as the testimony of the early church), whereas the two-source hypothesis relies mainly on internal evidence

• Current

AFTER ADDITION OF DUPLICATE MESSIANIC/HEBREW GOSPEL POV MATERIAL Duplicate material added 19-21 January 2011

It is generally accepted by most scholars that James was the first leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem.[4] [5] [6] [7] [7][3] [8][9][10] As Jews, this group worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem, revered the written Law and the Oral Tradition (called Torah Shebeal Peh). This Oral Tradition interpreted the written Law given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai.[11] [12]

It was in this cultural context or Sitz im Leben that the Christian Gospel Tradition had its roots, as Jesus and later Christian 'Rabbis' developed the oral "Gospel" to interpret the written Law given to Moses by God.[13][14] With the diaspora, (or Tefutzot תפוצות, "scattered") the oral tradition was no longer tenable for Jews or Jewish Christians.[15] [16][17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]

When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem,[13][14][23] he preached the Gospel orally to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome.[23][24] [25][26] However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. According to Jerome,[27] Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark

Modern scholars agree [28] that Mark composed the first gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account.[29][30][31][32] The Gospel of Mark was widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels.[22][33][34]

Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was also part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and said that his gospel was born out of necessity. [35] [36] It was composed in Hebrew and meant for Hebrew Christians.[37] [38][39][40][41][42][43][44]

This Hebrew Gospel was translated into Greek, but the Greek translation was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work.[45][46][47]

Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel according to the Hebrews [48][49] or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles [50][51][52][53] and it was once believed that it was the original to the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, although this is currently disputed by modern Biblical Scholars.

The Hebrew Gospel was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. [54] [55] These groups included the Nazarenes, Ebionites etc. It was generally believed that they added their own oral traditions or midrash to the "Hebrew Gospel" giving rise to what are now known as the Jewish Gospels.[56] Almost all critics agree that the Jewish Gospels are just modified editions of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel.[57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67] [68] [69] [70] [71][72]

In addition to the Gospel of Mark and the Hebrew Gospel (sometimes referred to as M source) another source held to be used in redacting the Gospels of Matthew and Luke is known as Q source, which most scholars believe was a written document.[3] This forms the basis of Streeter's Four Document Hypothesis. (See also the synoptic gospels and the two-gospel hypothesis)[3] Finally in a recent monograph James R. Edwards has put forward the possibility that the Gospel of the Hebrews was the first gospel to be written. It is further argued that this gospel was the basis for the canonical gospels.[73]

END

I propose moving the duplicate/POV material here to Talk. Also, separate problem; anyone any ideas about this REDIRECT to this article turned into fork article 26 Oct 2010 In ictu oculi (talk) 01:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Preserved dup/POV content here

It is generally accepted by most scholars that James was the first leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. As Jews, this group worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem, revered the written Law and the Oral Tradition (called Torah Shebeal Peh). This Oral Tradition interpreted the written Law given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai.

It was in this cultural context or Sitz im Leben that the Christian Gospel Tradition had its roots, as Jesus and later Christian 'Rabbis' developed the oral "Gospel" to interpret the written Law given to Moses by God. With the diaspora, (or Tefutzot תפוצות, "scattered") the oral tradition was no longer tenable for Jews or Jewish Christians.

When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem, he preached the Gospel orally to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome. However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. According to Jerome, Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark

Modern scholars agree that Mark composed the first gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account. The Gospel of Mark was widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels.

Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was also part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and said that his gospel was born out of necessity. It was composed in Hebrew and meant for Hebrew Christians.

This Hebrew Gospel was translated into Greek, but the Greek translation was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work.

Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel according to the Hebrews or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles and it was once believed that it was the original to the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, although this is currently disputed by modern Biblical Scholars.

The Hebrew Gospel was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. These groups included the Nazarenes, Ebionites etc. It was generally believed that they added their own oral traditions or midrash to the "Hebrew Gospel" giving rise to what are now known as the Jewish Gospels. Almost all critics agree that the Jewish Gospels are just modified editions of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel.

In addition to the Gospel of Mark and the Hebrew Gospel (sometimes referred to as M source) another source held to be used in redacting the Gospels of Matthew and Luke is known as Q source, which most scholars believe was a written document. This forms the basis of Streeter's Four Document Hypothesis. (See also the synoptic gospels and the two-gospel hypothesis) Finally in a recent monograph James R. Edwards has put forward the possibility that the Gospel of the Hebrews was the first gospel to be written. It is further argued that this gospel was the basis for the canonical gospels.

References

In ictu oculi (talk)

Compromise

I will leave this article entirely up to you. But please bring it up to Wikipedia standards. Cheers - Ret.Prof (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It'll be fine, I think there's plenty of mainstream editors there who will do that, it doesn't require me. One thing I will do however is restore the REDIRECTCanonical Gospels back to Gospels#Canonical_gospels_2 where it was. Since there isn't a specific Synoptic gospels + Gospel of John article on Wikipedia. Cheers.In ictu oculi (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Book of Mormon

I added the Book of Mormon to this page. I think it is another gospel and therefore should be on this page.79.209.44.172 (talk) 17:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

What verifiable reliable sources consider it a Gospel? Fat&Happy (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Look at Fullness of the Gospel79.209.48.123 (talk) 14:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Petrine Gospel Tradition

There are some inaccuracies in the new content that was added about the Petrine Gospel Tradition:

Modern scholars agree that Mark composed the first canonical gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account.

1. The statement that "Modern scholars agree that Mark composed the first canonical gospel" is not accurate. Most modern scholars agree on Markan Priority - that the Gospel of Mark was the first canonical gospel written. However, most modern scholars also agree that the gospels were composed anonymously. Therefore, it is a misstatement to claim that they agree Mark wrote it.

2. The statement "Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing" is simply a false statement. Nowhere in the primary sources or in the secondary literature is this claim made, let alone it being a consensus of most modern scholars.

Whoever added this material should take the opportunity to amend it to conform to what the reliable secondary sources that are cited actually say. Ignocrates (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

You have raised some good points... Off to the library... If I can't the reliable sources needed I will delete the material. Cheers - Ret.Prof (talk) 18:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Eusebius states in his Church History that the Gospel of Mark obtained the sanction of Peter's authority for the purpose of being used in the churches. Does this help?? See Eusebius, Church History Book II Chapter 15 v 1-2 Cheers - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

The key as an editor is to report what reliable secondary sources have to say about Eusebius' commentary on Papius in the Ecclesia. I personally have no problem laying out what the primary sources said for purposes of talk page discussion. However, an editorial summary of primary sources for purposes of article content is OR, and this looks like OR to me. The best course, in my opinion, is a summary statement based on reliable secondary sources with citations of the primary sources made by those same secondary sources embedded in the references. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

You are right. Does this help? Martin Hengel, The Four Gospels and the One Gospel of Jesus Christ: An Investigation of the Collection and Origin of the Canonical Gospels, Trinity Press International, 2000. p 205 - 207 - Ret.Prof (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is better. However, the sourced statement "But because Mark is based on the authority of Peter" is not the same thing as saying Peter reviewed the work and gave it his blessing. This can be amended later, as it looks like there is now a dispute over whether the content is appropriate to the article. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 06:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Temporarily removed large Jan 26 addition of "Petrine Gospel" + "Hebrew Gospel" material

RetProf. I thought you were going to not add "Hebrew Gospel" / any more material of this sort. Reverted back to state of article prior to this edit. This is a substantial and in the context of the article title "Gospel" greatly WP:overweight addition/distortion to the article. There may well be a place for material about the pseudepigraphic "Peter" gospels down lower in the article, there may even be a case for a link to the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis, but this is massively overweight and undue for a basic subject "Gospel" (as it was 6 months ago the last time this material was to be added to Wikipedia). What this needs is consensus from well informed experienced editors - I'm thinking St Anselm, History2007, Editor2020, John Carter, IanThomson, Esoglou and so on (apologies to others who've slipped my mind) who usually keep these Religion/Christianity pages in good shape. At the very least the additions need noting on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about references. Lets us work together to improve this article. - Ret.Prof (talk) 03:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Ret Prof, I see you've restored the material: Gospel‎; 03:01 . . (+18,806) . . Ret.Prof (talk | contribs)‎ (Undid revision 473613374 by In ictu oculi (talk) No consensus ). I've sorry we've been through all this the last time you tried to add the same theory to various (verbatim same content) to several articles. Wikipedia is not just about refs, it is about WP:Weight WP:Fringe WP:relevance WP:V and WP:PSTS (primary sources tend to original research) as well.

Similar concerns apply to your Oral tradition and the historical Jesus article - selfdeleted then restored. This really needs cooperating with the existing framework of historical Jesus articles on WP. Anyway I invite other editors to take a hand. No personal feelings here, but this giant chunk of "Petrine Gospel" + "Hebrew Gospel" material is the tail, or the bell on the tail, wagging the dog for the article Gospel. Sorry, I know you can't see that. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I think a content RfC would be appropriate here. Btw, moving the disputed material to the talk page might be preferable to deletion in a case like this. People tend to get defensive when they see all their hard work being atomized. Just a suggestion. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 06:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

An Rfc works on general topics, the moment the issues get complicated many of the participants end up being less than familiar with them. But can someone explain the main point of contention here please in 2 sentences? At first glance, it is not clear what the core of the argument is and I do not want to look forever through the edit histories. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 06:19, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The Jan 26 additions

Hi, this is the added material

• 1. Status quo version, per St Anselm's edit 7 Dec

The first accounts Critical scholars generally agree on several early sayings collections and accounts preceding the "canonical" Gospels. The dedicatory preface of the Gospel of Luke testifies already to the existence of several "accounts" of the life of Jesus by the time of its composition.[4] The term Luke uses (διήγησις diēgēsis) is a term used in classical Greek for any historical narrative.[5] The term "Gospel" is not used in the New Testament text for any of the canonical Gospels, though in later centuries a traditional reading of 2 Corinthians 8:18 "the brother whose praise is the Gospel" was to sometimes identify this with Luke, and consequently Gospel of Luke.[6]

• 2. Version with RetProfs Petrine/Hebrew Gospel material reappearing again and headlink to the deleted restored Oral tradition and the historical Jesus

The first accounts

Template:See also:Oral tradition and the historical Jesus

Critical scholars generally agree early oral sayings, collections, and accounts preceding the gospels formed an important oral tradition. Proto-gospels [4] [5] are the original works composed directly from the oral tradition [6] [7] and are generally considered to be the earliest gospels to be written. These works are believed to be the sources or basis for later gospels. [8] [9] [10]

Petrine Gospel tradition

According to Markus Bockmuehl, Simon Peter represents the center of the gospel tradition. [11] When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem, [12] he preached the Gospel orally [13] to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome.[12] [14] However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. [15] [16] [17]

According to Jerome, Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark. Modern scholars agree [18] that Mark composed the first canonical gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account.[verification needed][improper synthesis?] [19] [20] [21] The Gospel of Mark was generally accepted as part of the Canon, widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels. [22] [23]

Hebrew Gospel tradition

Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and explained that his gospel was born out of necessity as he too left for other nations. [24] [25] It was said to have been composed in Hebrew, for Hebrew Christians and translated into Koine Greek by Jerome. However, some modern scholars dispute this and argue that it was composed in Greek. The Hebrew original was said to have been kept at the Library of Caesarea. [26] [27] [28][29] [30] [31] [32]

It was the Nazarene Community who had transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [33] Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, [34] or the Gospel according to the Hebrews. The early Church believed it to be one of the first gospels written [35] [36] [37] [38] and it was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. [39] [40] [41] Many critics are agreed, that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel formed the basis of many of the later gospels. Some believe it to be the original form of the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, but this is disputed by many modern Biblical Scholars. [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54]

• All the above is basically original research from primary sources and 19th C reprints on Googlebooks. It's beyond WP:Fringe in terms of scholarship. And it's all been discussed and removed before 6 months ago. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that the high level of emphasis on Petrine and Hebrew items would not be mainstream ideas. If the door opens to that then many other items will just walk in. I think StAnselm who edited here knows that topic too and you could ask him for comment. Esolglou who does not edit here is also pretty familiar with the issues if you want to ask him for comment. If you get those two users to give opinions, you will have pretty knowlegeable input. History2007 (talk) 07:15, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no trouble with dealing with those concerns. There are lots of sources that support what the material that are mainstream. Thanks for your input. Cheers. - Ret.Prof (talk) 08:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Bauckham, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2006 gives a balanced and scholarly treatment of the topic. Please read pp 155 and the following - Ret.Prof (talk)
• Mark: Images of an Apostolic Interpreter, by C. Clifton Black, 2001 also gives a balanced and scholarly treatment of the topic. Please read pp 197 ff. - Ret.Prof (talk) 09:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I would heartily endorse those reading recommendations: and note Google Books - Bauckham 2006 Ch.7 "The Petrine Perspective in the Gospel of Mark", and I note that you've used a different page in Bauckham to support one of your sentences: "Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account.[verification needed][improper synthesis?]" [19 Bauckham 2006 p24] [20 Primary source] [21 Primary source]. But before we all get pulled into the detail I would hope other editors, not just History2007, would take an overview based on WP:Weight, WP:Relevance and WP:Fringe. There may well be a case for a cut down version of both of these paragraphs - "Petrine" and "Hebrew Gospel" further down in the article. But as they stand they are overweight, overprominent and contain a slant towards a non-mainstream view. Anyway, let's not scare off other editors by talking too much okay. Your 2 new paragraphs are there in the article, we can all see/read/judge them ourselves. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Given these concerns and other concerns I have about this editor's use of sources, I've removed the material again. Dougweller (talk) 10:39, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I think Dougwell did right: this article is better without the discussion on "Petrine tradition" and "Hebrew Gospel tradition", which is unrelated to the Gospels in general or even the canonical Gospels in general, but only to the Synoptic Gospels. Esoglou (talk) 12:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ My advice would be that unless StAnselm comments here and totally supports the Hebrew/Petrine idea, then Ret. Prof would do well to abandon this avenue (as well as the Oral Tradition article) for it will not go far but will consume time and energy. That energy could be productively used elsewhere, e.g. Expounding of the Law which is an official disaster area with no help in sight. I think the oral tradition article needs to become very brief and just mention that it was there, but not a major item. History2007 (talk) 14:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I have been wondering whether to comment here, but now I guess I should. I certainly do not "totally support the Hebrew/Petrine idea." I've been torn a bit on the issue. The material didn't seem too bad, but I'm naturally suspicious of a large addition. I made one immediate adjustment, but I didn't feel strongly enough to remove the whole thing. (I also want to mentioned I am also very suspicious of statements backed up by 13 footnotes!) Now, however, I am happy with it being removed. I note that we have already have two mentions in the article of how Peter was an influence on Mark. StAnselm (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess that settles it. History2007 (talk) 22:24, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Gospels as History

Comparing the historical evidence of Julius Caesar to Jesus is ridiculous. In the New Testament gospels it is claimed Jesus was discovered by wise men following a moving star, was born of a virgin, cast out demons that spoke and entered swine, calmed a storm, could see into the future, read minds, walked on water, raised the dead, told Peter where to cast his net in order to catch a fish with money in its belly, [Matt 17:27] and levitated. These examples and many others do not sound like historical evidences. How much of the Jesus Gospel stories is and is not history? Many elements (Supernatural) of these stories are to say in the least suspicious. They sound like ancient miracle and mythology stories. The ancient world was very different. It can only be imagined. In the ancient world predestination, Gods, divine heroes, demons, raised dead, miracles and magic were real. They were the commonly held beliefs of the majority of people. There was little curious inquiry and skepticism and little doubt about one's own experiences. Believing one can emotionally "feel the truth" is difficult to doubt. Even today. Even if Jesus was a living person it is impossible to separate the words he spoke from those the early church placed in his mouth. It is guess work. The historical Jesus is lost until time travel.

Kazuba (talk) User kazubaKazuba (talk)

Islamic influence on a page predominately about the Christian Gospel

The following paragraph;

“In Islam the Injil (Arabic: إنجيل‎ ʾInǧīl) is the Arabic name for the original gospel of Jesus, and one of the four Islamic holy books the Qur'an records as revealed by God. Islam holds that over time it became corrupt and God sent the prophet Muhammad to reveal the last book, according to the Islamic faith.[3]”

...which has been put in repeatedly after being deleted, is appropriate on pages relating to Islam, and not relevant to a page whose main existence stems from Christianity. The context of the paragraph appears to have the intent to invalidate the Gospel. The relevancy of corrupted writings belongs on pages relating to Islam, since the view of corrupted Scriptures stems from Muslims not believing the Gospel.

This is not merely a faith preference, but factual; faith in Muhammad, the Qur'an, and the view of corrupted scriptures are uniquely Islamic in perspective, and their presence has no more place on a page about the Gospel, than historical facts stemming from Christianity belong on pages about Islam or the Qur’an with the intent to discredit Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GadsDad (talk • contribs) 23:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for finally explaining your repeated deletions on the talk page instead of continuing to silently edit war.

Wikipedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia, not a leaflet for distribution in Sunday School classes. That the article is about the Christian Gospel does not mean only the Christian viewpoint (as if there were a single, monolithic Christian viewpoint on anything) must or should be presented. Significant views of historians as well as those of Jews, Muslims, and others are also appropriate. Fat&Happy (talk) 00:28, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I certainly understand that entries are not limited to one perspective, but is the definition of a matter free game? Do we get to decide what the law of relativity is by committee, or is it what it is? I doubt that "significant views" from Christians and Jews are welcome on Muslim pages, neither would I try to insert views contrary to Muslim faith, as I understand the nature of the material relates to informing readers about Islam, not Christianity. As I said before, the belief of corrupted scriptures as stated in the paragraph in question, is unique to the Islamic faith, and belongs in material relating to Islam, not material based on predominately Christian faith. So this begs the question, who has the final say on Wikipedia whether material on a page is relevant or not? Thank you for discussing this matter.GadsDad (talk) 14:29, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

I understand you are viewing this article as a Christian and would prefer it reflect a purely Christian perspective. However, Wikipedia attempts to give due weight to all significant perspectives on a topic. This article is not reserved for a Christian point of view and it's against policy to permit such bias in any article. I think the Muslim perspective is relevant to this topic and including it offers a more complete understanding of the Gospels' influence in the world. If contributors thought "Muslim pages" would benefit from content on Christian or Jewish perspectives then that content would be there and I suspect it is there. Jojalozzo 04:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

If this is Wikipedia's final judgment on the matter than I will respect it, though I disagree with it. I appreciate the opportunity to make these views known. Thank you.GadsDad (talk) 14:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Well, a) it's just my opinion and silence from the other millions of editors, all but two or three of whom are unaware of this discussion and b) nothing's final around here - we just keep keeping on. In any case, you have grasped the basic process here in that you find others who agree with your position before taking action. Jojalozzo 18:05, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Dear sirs, I have noticed the conversation about the Gospel. The Gospel is a Biblical term that solely used for the Christian faith. I believe when we mix the responses, people reading will be confused as to the perspective from which it is coming. If you will not stop Muslims from placing their thoughts on a subject they really don't know about, why not allow the Gospel message be from the persepct of the Christian and the Gospel message from the perspective of the Muslim. This will help to avoid confusing the person seeking clarity about the subject. If they want to know how the Muslim feels, that is fine. If they want to know what a Christian believes that will work as well. This would make the subject more clearly understood. Thanks for your consideration.Danielrsss (talk) 15:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that is very good suggestion to clarify the perspective.GadsDad (talk) 15:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

The criticism is right. It is completely in order to mention the ISlamic view of gospel/injil. But the wording here insinuates that there WAS an "original gospel" of Jesus as a "book" - which cannot be confirmed by any historic or scientific standard. So this has to be changed. Kipala (talk) 10:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Decretum Gelasianum

The Decretum Gelasianum is an important piece of historical changes in what is perceived as "the Gospel." In which area should it be added? Twillisjr (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Oral tradition

The section here is currently more bulky than the breakout article Oral gospel traditions. If anyone thinks the content could be moved across, then go for it. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Definition of "gospel"

In scholarship, a gospel is always a written document - it's just a matter of definition. Q was neither oral nor a gospel, and Mark is the only gospel thought to have had oral sources (M and L were both written). The article needs a good source to define the subject - any major bible encyclopedia would do.PiCo (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"In scholarship, a gospel is always a written document" - I'm assuming you have a source that backs that up? That's a pretty sweeping claim. ReformedArsenal (talk) 04:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly the problem, the lead has no sources. I don't mind what it says there, but there needs to be a brief definition of the word from a general bible encyclopedia or similar. There's a need also to avoid statements like that in the second sentence of the lead, "However, the term is also used to refer to the apocryphal gospels, the non-canonical gospels, the Jewish gospels and the Gnostic Gospels" - this is just silly.PiCo (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

In text-criticism a gospel is usually (inevitably), perhaps almost always, a written document, partly because some text-critical scholars reject the distinction of "oral gospel" as artificial. Usually the distinction will be qualified by "Gospel tradition" as in Henry Wansborough Jesus and the Oral Gospel Tradition 2004 where Gospel may be being used as the second adjective on tradition. However in NT usage "preach the Gospel" is evidently oral and this more generic usage is also found in scholarly sources which aren't text-focussed. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

New Scholarship and the Oral gospel traditions

Over the past ten years the thinking of Biblical scholars has undergone a radical transformation. There is now a growing number of historians that believe:

1. Jesus was a Jewish teacher living in a Jewish society (Sitz im Leban).
2. Jesus and later his disciples were active participants in the Oral Tradition of the Second Temple Period.
3. Early Christians, up to the time of the creation of the first Gospels, sustained the Gospel message of Jesus, by sharing the stories of his life and his teachings orally. This Oral Tradition remained vibrant until the destruction of the Temple.
4. These 21st C. scholars generally agree that Mark was the first to write down the Oral Tradition in the form of a Gospel. They also argue that Matthew wrote down the sayings in a Hebrew dialect and that the canonical Gospel of Matthew does not appear to be a translation from Hebrew or Aramaic but was composed in Greek. (ie Matthew's Hebrew Gospel and the Gospel of Matthew are two distinct Gospels.)

Bart Ehrman

Bart Ehrman is probably the most formidable Biblical historian of our time. Not only is he required reading at most seminaries, but he has managed to hit New York Times best sellers list. In his most recent work Did Jesus Exist?, HarperCollins, 2012. pp 83 - 93 and 98-101 Bart D. Ehrman, explains why the oral traditions about Jesus are an important part of the history of Christianity. Some of these oral traditions "were originally spoken in Aramaic, the language of Palestine. These traditions date at least to the early years of the Christian movement, before it expanded into the Greekspeaking lands elsewhere in the Mediterranean." p 87 Ehrman shows that each of the Gospel texts is based on "oral traditions that had been in circulation for years among communities of Christians in different parts of the world, all of them attesting to the existence of Jesus. And some of these traditions must have originated in Aramaic-speaking communities of Palestine, probably in the 30s CE, within several years at least of the traditional date of the death of Jesus." pp 92-93

Then Ehrman explains why Papias, who was born in 63 CE and was a Bishop in the Early Church is so very important in understanding the Oral Gospel Traditions. Papias had written a flve-volume on the Oral Tradition and more importantly, he had direct access to "the sayings of Jesus. He was personally acquainted with people who had known either the apostles themselves or their companions." p 98 Also it was Matthew who reduced the oral tradition to writing as Papias reports, “And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted [or translated] them to the best of his ability.” p 100

Finally although Ehrman takes the position that Matthew reduced the Oral Tradition to a Hebrew dialect (probably Aramaic) he does not believe that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Matthew in our Bible. Because there is "a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to" what we call Matthew. Ehrman adds, in fact, what Papias "says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels." The Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew is distinct from the Gospel of Matthew that eventually came to be included in Scripture.p 101 Papias then, is "testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves."P 101

Maurice Casey

Maurice Casey is one of Britain's most noted historians. He is Emeritus Professor at the University of Nottingham, having served there as Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the Department of Theology. His most recent work Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010. p 9-12 supports the aforementioned scholarship. There can be little doubt that the language of oral transmission of the Gospel was Aramaic for "Jesus taught in Aramaic, which was also the language spoken by his family and by all his followers" p 108 during the formative tears of Christianity.

Furthermore, he too believes that Matthew collected the oral traditions of Jesus and reduced them to writing. "Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down... There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. p 86 Therefore "it is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language."88 Finally, he agrees with Ehrman that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel has no connection with our Gospel of Matthew. "This tradition is complete nonsense, as most scholars have recognized." p 87

James Edwards

Unlike Casey and Ehrman, James Edwards is a Christian scholar. He is a Bruner-Welch Professor of Theology, an Ordained Presbyterian minister, a contributing editor of Christianity Today, and member of the Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton. In his most recent work the The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 2 he confirms that the Oral Gospel traditions were collected by Matthew and that Matthew wrote them down in the Hebrew Gospel. p3

Then Edwards evaluates the testimony of Papias using the criteria of Casey and Ehrman. Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link

So far this 21st C. scholarship has not been well received at Wikipedia. It has been argued the the material from Bart Ehrman, Maurice Casey, and James Edwards is 'original research' and has no place at Wikipedia. The result is that we are now in a state of gridlock. We have been unable to get past the Oral gospel traditions stub. What is needed are editors who are willing to review the reliable sources and expand the stub into an article written from a NPOV. - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd be very interested to see references for the claims of growing consensus on points 1 - 4. StAnselm (talk) 14:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest. I have looked at your edit history and you are a gifted editor whose help will be appreciated. In a general sense I think it would be fair to say that there is now a "consensus that Jesus must be understood as a Jew in a Jewish environment." Voorst 2000. p 5 As to the importance of Aramaic, please see Talk at Oral gospel traditions thanks again for your interest. - Ret.Prof (talk) 12:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can accept there is a consensus on #1. I was particularly dubious about #2 and #4. StAnselm (talk) 22:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Good. One of the main debates here at Wikipedia has been the Sitz im Leben or "situation in life" of Jesus. However if you agree that there is "consensus that Jesus must be understood as a Jew in a Jewish environment", Voorst 2000. p 5 that is half the battle. - Ret.Prof (talk) 14:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"Bart Ehrman is probably the most formidable Biblical historian of our time." - I lol'd, and then I cried... ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Remember, formidable is not necessarily a good thing! - Ret.Prof (talk) 15:15, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Point 1 (Jesus was Jewish) I can take as granted (though I have doubts that he was a rabbi - not impossible, but not proven, either). Points 2 to 4 I'm pretty dubious about. Honestly Ret.Prof, you've misrepresented what Donald Senior says. You use him to support your assertion that "...21st C. scholars generally agree that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus in Hebrew dialect. Senior says no such thing. What that passage is, is a discussion of various scholarly interpretations of Papias' famous passage about Matthew writing "in Hebrew dialect"; at the end of his discussion Senior says (page 80), "This discussion has to end on an inconclusive note." In other words, no consensus, growing or other. Then he speaks of "[t]he fact (my emphasis) that the Gospel of Matthew as we now have it was evidently written in Greek (my emphasis again)..." Yes, he does say also that "one should be cautious" about dismissing the idea that that the apostle had some association with the Gospel, but that's a long way from saying that Matthew wrote it, in Greek or any other language. (In fact the dominant idea on the composition of Matthew is that one of the three major sources consists of tradition derived from Matthew - the M material - but it's only one of three, along with Mark and Q). I don't accuse you of being dishonest - I think you;re an honest person - but I do think you allow your enthusiasm for your own ideas distort your reading of secondary sources, which is what seems to have happened here. PiCo (talk) 07:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Regarding Jesus being a Rabbi I think that it was a poor choice of words. I am replacing Rabbi with "Jewish teacher" (See Ehrman 2012 p 12, p 171, p 92, p 268). You are also right that Ehrman, Casey and Edwards do not equal a "growing consensus". Therefore I am changing the wording to a "growing number of scholars" and I replaced the Senior link. Finally I would like to thank you for the good will shown in your comments. - Ret.Prof (talk) 12:56, 18 May 2013 (UTC)