Talk:Gothic aesthetics

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both kilpatrick and voltaire connect goth to gothic-romantic and gothic architecture. Hodkinson identifies "feminity" "ambiguity" "sombreness" and "macabre" as stylistic features. He intentionally avoids trying to identify a meaning but focuses on goth "style" as it actually appears in his ethnographic research of the goth subculture.

perhaps feminity needs to be added as part of the aesthetic. or is that part of beauty? I have sources saying goth is about beauty.

is sombreness included in despair? is macabre part of despair and camp? where does ambiguity go? probably romanticism... these are just my thoughts and notes to myself right now.. since no one else seems to be putting these sources together. TheDarknessVisible 05:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Femininity isn't quite a good description: the makeup is more for a delicate emulation of standard elegant horror makeup: white facepaint at times, black eyeliner is necessitated often, black or red lipstick can be of primary importance, while the female clothing is a common adornment because masculine clothing really isn't so pretty. Also the architecture comparison isn't quite holding to Goth Rock: the Bauhaus formative to Goth Rock is a band, you know that. If you're going for a description of Goth Rock aesthetic (or even Gothic Aesthetic) try describing what is done first: emulation of existing primary gothic musicians (Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Cure, Rozz Williams) is foremost, most of these during their heyday as formative to goth rock wore black clothing and black eyeliner. For the sake of Wikipedia clarity in such an article, it is best to stop trying to confuse the situation and continue a deceptive description: be true to what is available and what is overt.

As to the lifestyle aesthetic, the music aesthetic, the aesthetic of gesture and intonation: these are ephemeral but methods of understanding Goth Rock should formally initiate with the beginning of Goth Rock as it is apparent (Bauhaus's '79 release of Bela Lugosi's Dead, Siouxsie and the Banshees with their performances circa Join Hands and thereafter, The Cure with Seventeen Seconds and thereafter). Do not neglect to note that Goth Rock and British Heavy Metal are two different phenomena with different intended effect, different music style, different personality and approach altogether. Do not neglect to note that Goth Rock moved into Christian Death but not far past, that it remained Gothic even into Darkwave (most Darkwave fans were Goth Rockers), and that religious icons and imagery (mostly Catholic, although other religions can be represented) appear often. My advice is not to move too far away from standard Goth Rock (down the road from Sisters of Mercy, it's Rozz and This Mortal Coil on either side: straightforward with Mephisto Waltz and Switchblade Symphony, step carefully alongside Rasputina because you know...).

Of course, the necessity of this very article is not *very* strong, but it can be done and done well.

September Virgin, (UTC)

[edit] Merge to Goth Subculture.

Doesn't really seems to merit it's own article, but infromation would be useful in the main article Zazaban 18:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I defiantly agree. All systems go 01:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Its too much information to go in the subculture article. And the other article is already very long and needed to have gothic music split out from it. Further most sources predate the goth subculture as the aesthetic "gothic" existed before the subculture or music ever existed. The pre-existing aesthetic was the source of the name for the subculture. Effort would be better spent expanding/completing this article rather than figuring out how to merge it.TheDarknessVisible (talk) 22:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

disagree with merger, let's get to work on the article! Ashspirit (talk) 12:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes disagree, no merger. Too much content to go into the Goth article, which is already fairly large. Needs to be fleshed out, and some of the references a bit better, though admittedly not easy to find solid commentary on subcultures, in particular their philosophies. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I too believe this should stay as a separate article. Is there any dissent now to removing the merge tag? I suspect it's a bit of a discouragement to cleanup and expansion. William Avery (talk) 08:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I still believe it would be a good merger. Aesthetics would work well as the fifth point in Goth Subculture, and fashion would fit snugly within the Gothic Aesthetics article that way. 32ndnote (talk) 17:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] absolutely TERRIBLE writing

"gothic aesthetics involve the conjunction of several factors which function concurrently." WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK? 67.176.25.230 (talk) 04:11, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Would someone please delete this page. It is utterly pointless and very poorly written. Very Old School Goth (talk) 12:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

We don't delete pages just because they're badly written. If there are improvements to be made, you can tag it with {{cleanup}} or one of its specific versions, or you can be bold and fix it. ... discospinster _talk 15:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

How about how the page is completely pointless and unnoteworthy. "Aesthetics"? How do "Camp", "Sublime" or "Despair" have anything at all to do with Gothic aesthetics? Sublime? Sublime what? This looks like it was written by a ten year old who was trying to string together a bunch of five dollar words to sound intelligent and failed miserably. There is no point in merging this with any other article. It just needs to be deleted.Very Old School Goth (talk) 20:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] REWRITE please

This article is completely redundant on explainig the gothic aesthetics (using the word gothic to name the subculture that emerged on the 80's of course); The first two sections rather explain the aesthetics of the gothic arquitecture, when the point of the article should be to explain the aesthetics of the goth subculture and as a result describing to which point goth aesthetics are influenced with gothic aesthetics and other aesthetics. As for the futher three sections, their content doesn't explains anything at all. Nancy Kilpatrick's book "The Goth Bible" states that "Romance is at the heart of what it means to be goth". What sort of explanation it gives about how goth is related with romantisism? It's certainly valid to say that the elements gothic aesthetics are camp style, a sublime perspective, romanticism, dispair, and nostalgia, but the article doesn't explains how neither why. Fae-Baudelaire (talk) 01:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

It needs to be killed. Not rewritten. IMO. This page is pointless. Very Old School Goth (talk) 12:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)