Talk:Gothic rock

Should gothic music redirect here?

OMG, WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING THAT METAL IS NOT GOTH, YOU'RE JUST FANATICS, THE OLDIER BANDS HAD SEX, DRUGS, AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN THEIR MUSIC, BUT GOTHIC METAL DO NOTHAVE THAT KIND OOF THEMS, TODAY'S GOTHIC METAL IS COMPLETELY GOTHIC. Gothic music redirects here. Surely there are other genres of goth music than rock, such as gothic metal? --Irrevenant [ talk ] 07:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Gothic Metal is Metal music, not Goth. --Chontamenti (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Gothic metal is really just a misnomer. It came out of metal completely separate of gothic rock and gothic was tacked on because of some sort of perceived,"darkness" which, while really vague and personally to me not making much sense, seems to be similar to how gothic rock initially gained its name (that being the atmosphere the gothic rock subculture entertained). And if one were to look back to what gothic means as of the past 100 or so years, it is from the 19th century gothic writing style. This is where the connection between the atmosphere and the word gothic of today. But the gothic in the front does not really have anything to do with the actual style of play so much as just something that it was called when the style came out and it just stuck. The problem with this is that this combination of perception causes confusion amongst people and hence why people now try to stick the gothic rock genre on non-gothic rock bands by citing critics who caught onto this trend and use words like "gothic" to describe them in reviews when in actuality those critics are calling them gothic sounding from the metal standpoint and not from the gothic rock standpoint. This is because as anything else, most critics specialize in something, so you have metal critics who can talk about metal but when use the word gothic coming from a metal viewpoint it confuses laymen and women (and frankly most of those metal critics are metalheads who don't know about or listen to gothic rock). But just because both have gothic in the front, irrespective of what that actually means, it has nothing to do with the actual "sound". Just a name, and frankly gothic rock had it first but thats okay as the names are already established and its best we just try to push forward and correct any damage that has been done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.60.163 (talk) 20:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Gothic metal has nothing to do with Goth. But yes there are lots of other kinds of Gothic music that are not rock. I don't understand why Gothic music redirects here and not to, say, Ethereal Wave, Darkwave, Deathrock or Neo Classcial. These are also considered kinds of Gothic music. What makes rock so special? Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 02:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Ethereal, Neo-Classical, Cold Wave and Goth are kinds of Dark Wave music. Until the mid-/end-90s, the term Goth(ic) was associated with Gothic rock. We never called Neo-classical/Heavenly Voices as "Goth". The term Goth was mostly associated with Mick Mercer's dark rock world. --Chontamenti (talk) 03:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Key word here being "was". ;-) 76.181.241.184 (talk) 04:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, because in many regions, the Goth and Dark Wave movement is dead. It was primarily a movement of the 80s and 90s. Today, the nighclubs are full of Dance/Techno and Heavy Metal music. Especially in Germany. I really hate that fucking crap. People call it "Goth", but in fact it's Metal and Techno music in Aeolian mode. --Chontamenti (talk) 19:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It's not dead everywhere. Some clubs still play Goth, Etherereal, Death Rock, and Darkwave and refuse to spin ebm or metal. Come to think of it, I am one of those DJs. 76.181.245.123 (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

EBM (DAF, Nitzer Ebb, F242) isn't the problem, but Hellektro (Combichrist, X-Fusion, SITD etc.). It's only a genre confusion. I don't understand why Goths of today dislike Post-industrial music, such as EBM. Early Goths also listened to Einstürzende Neubauten, Cabaret Voltaire and Skinny Puppy. --Chontamenti (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Because industial and ebm are not as related to Goth as many would have you believe. The industrial and ebm scenes are very similar to disco, in a lots of people's minds (especially ebm), which is what Goth was an answer to/backlash against. I regularly attended Batcave and Slimelight many moons ago and recall some people being into Skinny Puppy, Einstürzende Neubauten, etc. and remember a great many people treating them as poseurs for being pro-industrial. Personally, I could care less what people listen to. But I do think that the moods and aesthetics frequently associated with ebm and industrial to be quite counter to those associated with Goth. Meaning I find that ebm and industrial in the Goth club setting to be something of a mood killer. Just my opinion, mate. Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 02:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The Goth scene now definitely includes many other styles than traditional Gothic rock, as a number of sources will attest. Perhaps "Gothic music" should redirect to the Goth subculture page. Lots of older people think that rivetheads and cybergoths and such aren't goth, but descriptively speaking, many goths follow those styles. Besides, even the goths who stick to the older rock styles often listen to deathrock, which is itself somewhat divorced from the initial UK goth scene. Such are the vagaries of history. Aryder779 (talk) 00:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Gothic music is a vague term. It should be deleted. Not every kind of music that is preferred by the Gothic culture is Gothic music.

Btw: Remember: In fact, the Death rock movement started in 1982. There was no Death rock album released before 1982. In 1980/1981, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus and Lords of the New Church toured in the United States. Since the beginning, Death rock was definitely influenced by UK Goth. Death rock is only the American kind of Goth, strongly influenced by US Hardcore Punk. --Chontamenti (talk) 12:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a disambiguation page is in order. Listing the genres most frequently associated with Goth and the genres that are (unfortunately) confused with Goth. Cheers!Very Old School Goth (talk) 15:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

IMO it would be only a hardly embattled POV list (see the history of the Gothic music article). The list of Gothic rock bands is hard-fought enough. --Chontamenti (talk) 15:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Point taken. Looks like Ada Kataki and 76.181.250.255 wiki-martyred themselves over that one. Very Old School Goth (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Gothic Metal is a genre of Heavy Metal, I agree with that; a genre parts Doom, Power and Black Metal. It did not branch off of Gothic Rock and does not share its musical aesthetics. A point I have to bring up is how all this article seems to only focus on Punk Rock's influence(which is undeniable), while totally ignoring the effect early Heavy Metal and Psychedelic had on the gothic rock genre. I shouldn't even need to explain what Gothic Rock has in common with The Doors, The Thirteenth Floor Elevators, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. All these bands had a greater influence than some listed in the article, the most ridiculous example being The Sex Pistols. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.218.176 (talk) 23:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course heavy metal influenced gothic rock bands, but not the genre itself. Siouxsie and the banshees and Bauhaus (Goth Rock Pioneers) are not influenced by heavy metal at all. The Gothic Music is ALWAYS influenced by Post-Punk. Punk rock is not that important in goth music, but that's just my opinion. There are a lot of goth music genres, obviously, but each one is a subengre of Gothic rock or post-punk. Anyways I agree with making a disambiguation or a exclusive page for goth music.|170.51.26.54 (talk) 01:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Grunge

This sentence, at the end of the lead, has never seemed right to me: "Following the immense popularity of Grunge in the United States, gothic rock slowly faded from the mainstream and has since then remained a largely underground entity." - Dave Thompson: Schattenwelt. Helden und Legenden des Gothic Rock. Hannibal, Höfen 2004, ISBN 3-85445-236-5, p. 316.

The reference is to a German translation of a book, so I can't check the source. The real issues are these: First, the article isn't really about the United States at all anyway. Almost the entire Gothic rock article is about British groups, and a few Europeans; there's only a brief mention of the U.S., with regard to deathrock. American goth is covered there. So the real concern is the British music scene, which I think was preoccupied with Britpop rather than grunge. For another thing, Gothic rock as such was always pretty much an underground entity. Comparing Nirvana to the Mission UK or whatever is basically apples and oranges, commercially speaking. For another thing, the sources basically indicate that the heyday of Gothic rock was about '83-'85. I can think of a number of developments that encroached on Gothic rock's territory much more than grunge -- hard rock à la The Cult, shoegazing, and especially industrial metal, for example. Groups like the Smashing Pumpkins, Jane's Addiction, and Nine Inch Nails were very popular in the early '90s, the same period as grunge, and certainly drew on Goth and occupied its cultural space to a much, much greater degree than Pearl Jam, et. al. Aryder779 (talk) 16:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The Sex Pistols were an undeniable influence. I believe they`re what intially motived Siouxie and the Banshees, the Cure, and Joy Division to start bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ash Loomis (talk • contribs) 05:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Theatre of Hate

This article incorrectly implies that Theatre of Hate emerged into the scene in 1983. The band was formed in 1980 and broke up in late 1982. They enjoyed the height of their popularity in 1981-1982, and should probably be mentioned alongside Bauhaus, The Cure, Joy Division, and Siouxsie as forerunners of the movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.226.208 (talk) 06:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The group has no Wikipedia page and seems to have very few sources covering it. It was included in the "mid-80s" section because that's how Reynolds characterizes them in his post-punk group. If you have good sources for the group, please write a page from them and then mention them in the appropriate space here. Aryder779 (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Mention of Mislabeling of Marilyn Manson and other Artists

Should we mention artists that have been mislabeled as goth rock such as Marilyn Manson and White Zombie? KMFDM FAN ^(talk!) 14:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

It's possible that there should be a section for later groups that draw on gothic rock or are associated with it by the press (She Wants Revenge, AFI, Manson, stuff like that). These kinds of additions have been controversial in the past, but with good sources, I think this might be possible in some way. Manson and White Zombie are covered at the industrial metal page; there are obviously some cultural connections between industrial metal and gothic rock, but not really much demonstrable musical relationship. Aryder779 (talk) 03:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The common mistake is from critics specialised in mainstream styles and not the underground. As soon as a band such as Marilyn Manson makes it big time they only see the surface. Without deep analysis they see that "this is dark music" or "this is an occult band" and pigeon-holes them with gothic aesthetics. Marilyn Manson is part of the Industrial Metal movement.

Pre-dating gothic rock, Heavy Metal has always been dark, occult and gloomy, though in a live fast, iron-fist kind of way. Industrial explores the modern age of technology with its undercurrents, through the rust of a concrete jungle nightlife. Gothic lives darkness as solace, finding beauty in the disowned aspects of life(and/or death), and looking for a romantic edge in tragedies. Death Rock at face looks similar, but rather focuses on the thrill of living out the mindset of monsters and horror movie scenarios. Finally Emo, expresses loss and life's emotional experiences through dark metaphors. All these have been incorrectly lumped together at one point or another. I think of all things if wrongly labeled bands are to be mentionned, the section needs to address how the "dark" genres themselves differ from one another.

for example: Black Widow(Psychedelic) Black Sabbath(Heavy Metal) Skinny Puppy(Industrial) Bauhaus(Gothic Rock) Misfits(Death Rock) My Chemical Romance(Emo)

All these bands are dark, but are worlds apart thematically and musically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.119.37 (talk) 21:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not always so easy to label groups. I completely agree that Marilyn Manson is not goth - but a group being part of one rock scene does not automatically exclude them from another. Killing Joke, The Cult, Siouxsie and other such groups have always effortlessly moved between genres, or had followings from several genres. They are not mutually exclusive. Gothic Rock is extremely varied, just listen to the Sisters of Mercy, The Virgin Prunes, All About Eve, ASF, XMAL and Gene loves Jezebel - you will be loathed to find any musical, cultural or even image connection between them all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xiuxiuejar (talk • contribs) 19:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Gothic rock/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi. Will start review soon. Kaguya-chan (talk) 22:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   The goth subculture "that includes clubs, various fashion trends and numerous publications that grew in popularity in the 1980s" sounds like it should be mentioned somewhere in the body of the article... and did gothic rock continue? If it did, what are some current artists/ bands associated w/ gothic rock?

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   There are no fair use rationales, specifically for this article, for File:Nicoheroin.JPG, File:Joy Division.JPG, and File:Killing Joke band members 1985.jpg

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   The captions are very short. Also there are a lot of images here. Are they all necessary? Maybe explain the sigificance of the band in the caption?

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• There is a lot of overlinking in the article. For example, David Bowie is linked twice.
• The web footnotes aren't formatted consistently. Try Template:web cite

Lead:

• "Notable gothic rock bands include Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, and Fields of the Nephilim, among many others" can be changed to "Notable gothic rock bands include Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, and Fields of the Nephilim"
• One paragraph seems short for the lead. Look at Grunge music.
• "Gothic rock (also referred to as goth rock or simply goth)" Source?
• "Gothic rock gave rise to a broader goth subculture that includes clubs, various fashion trends and numerous publications that grew in popularity in the 1980s." Source?

Style, roots and influences

• "Gothic rock typically deals with dark themes addressed through lyrics and the music atmosphere." Source?
• "Nico's 1969 album, The Marble Index, was also particularly influential." How? Explain more, please.

Origins and early development

• "The term "gothic" was initially loosely applied to certain post-punk groups."Source and who were the certain post-punk groups?
• "...much of the fan base came from his milieu" Maybe reword?
• "Southern Death Cult were themselves icons of the scene" You can leave out "themselves"
• Maybe spell out NME?
• "The emerging scene was described as "positive punk" in a February 1983 article in NME" The emerging gothic rock scene?
• "Simon Reynolds speaks of a shift from early Goth to Gothic rock proper, advanced...." I'm confused. So early gothic rock wasn't the same as the gothic rock that came afterwards?

Subsequent developments

• Gothic rock is both capitalized and not capitalized (example:"....which draws on Gothic rock" and "American gothic rock began with....")

References

• A lot of the books are missing ISBNs
• What makes http://sortedmagazine.com/archive/magazine/sordid/attrition.htm a reliable source?

I'm sorry, but I'll have to finish up the review tomorrow. Kaguya-chan (talk) 23:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Will finish review later today. Thanks for being patient! Kaguya-chan (talk) 14:00, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Overall, this is a very interesting article and a lot of good research was put into it. However, I'm not sure if it is a good article at this point. It doesn't seem to cover the main aspects of the topic. I'm sure that with a little more work, it could be renominated in the future. Look at Punk rock or Grunge music for examples. Kaguya-chan (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

• • "Southern Death Cult were themselves icons of the scene" You can leave out "themselves"

Actually you can leave Southern Death Cult out entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.246.95 (talk) 03:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Should Gothic music Redirect here ? I

I don't think so, there's a lot of gothic genres that are not gothic rock such as Darkwave, ethereal wave and death rock.

Dark Wave and Death Rock aren't "Gothic" genres. Ethereal is a Goth spin-off.

lol? Deathrock is like an american version of gothic rock, and gothic rock is within the darkwave movement

Don't you see the difference? Gothic Rock is a part of Dark Wave, yes, but Dark Wave isn't a part of Gothic Rock. And Death Rock isn't the same like Gothic Rock. Death Rock has a strong Hardcore Punk and Hard Rock influence, bands such as 45 Grave were inspired by Heavy Metal bands (Black Sabbath). Read Gitane Demone's interviews and biographies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.9.54 (talk) 20:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Besides, this is Gothic Music too, from 1390 AD: [1] Maybe a disambugination page is needed? -- megA (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ultravox as a Gothic rock band

Listen to their 1980. album ViennaItalic text, and 1981. Rage In Eden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManOfTwoWorlds (talk • contribs) 14:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, awful Synthpop/New Wave Pop. I can't hear any Goth sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.21.181 (talk) 12:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

(Eyeroll at above dissing of Vienna}

Well Ultravox falls under the "New Romantic" banner, not Goth, but I nevertheless kind of see where you're coming from. I don't think it's too crazy to suggest there's a "dark"/eerie feel to early works from Ultravox as well as Human League, Visage, OMD, Numan. The bands of course, deliberately put an alienated/detached mood to the music, and I suppose that mood is gloomy and maybe "Goth-like". Problem is, the themes in New Romantic Synth were ultimately more Sci/Futuristic-focused, while in Goth more supernatural/morbidity focused...thus, that distinction will always prevent above bands from being talked about in a "Goth" context (fair enough, since they aren't Goths).

But that being said, these bands in their early incarnation's are known to be described "postpunk", which is Goth's parent genre. Additionally, we know that synthpop itself is a confirmed Darkwave musical origin. So at the least, I'm thinking that some New Romantic synth influence in later electro-Goth music, isn't exactly improbable.

(I should note that despite my mentioning of Numan, he does have both Goth and New Romantic ties.) Theburning25 (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Johnny Cash

It seems to me that certain works by Johnny Cash may fit under the label "gothic music" although certainly not his work as a whole. Or would the terms psychobilly and gothabilly be more appropriate? The following article seems to support the notion that Cash may have a place in this article:http://www.slate.com/id/2147591/ BillyJack193 (talk) 04:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I have pretty wide musical taste, and I enjoy Johnny Cash as well as many goth bands. Can't say I've heard a gothic rock influence in his stuff though. Are you refering to gothic music as in gothic rock, or to something else? If so, Cash doesn't really have a place here since the article is specifically on the gothic rock genre, not on any music that one might describe as "gothic" in some sense of the word.Ash Loomis (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was speaking more of his influence on gothic rock, rather than its influence on him. I agree, though that it may fit more with other forms of gothic music.BillyJack193 (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure most gothic rock bands are familiar with Cash's work and appreciate it. He's one of the most influential figures on the development of modern popular music. However, I don't think he would have been a direct influence upon them. Goth grew out of punk and drew on various other experimental genres while Cash played more traditional music. Cash helped shape the rock and roll genre, which eventually led the development of later styles such as goth, but I don't think any of the bands that formed the genre were directly drawing on his work. Do you have any sources where a band that helped develop the style mentions him as a direct influence, or sources that discuss how certain songs influenced the sound? Otherwise, there's no real need to include Cash here. Ash Loomis (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Connection with Gothic architecture?

There surely must be some reason why the music and music style became known as 'gothic'. But does anybody know what it is? 86.40.48.250 (talk) 10:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Have you even read this article and the related ones of Goth subculture and fashion? By the way, there are several things which has the label "gothic" and there's no specific connection among them or do you think that Gothic chess is related to Gothic arquitecture? "Gothic" is a label with a pejorative connotation which is why it has been used in so many artistic areas. Even though Gothic chess, Gothic literature, Gothic subculture or Gothic arquitecture share the same "gothic" term, they don't have share any cultural connection among them, neither are Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal related for that matter. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 11:16, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I have to disagree with the opinion above mine. Gothic literature, which is related to the Gothic Revival architecture, influenced the mood and atmosphere of goth rock. And this is explained in the articles about gothic novel and gothic subculture. You can also look here [2] where it's described how the architecture, the literature and the music are connected.212.50.76.237 (talk) 09:47, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Edition war over Gothic Metal as a Gothic Rock fusion genre.

It seems like RepublicanJacobite has given no explanation as to why he personally considers Gothic Metal as a Gothic Rock fusion genre with Heavy Metal (only that it seem a tad "gothic" to him), so I invite him to write here why he considers such thing. What he seems to ignore is that Gothic Metal didn't came from Goth scene in the first place, it doesn't sound like Gothic Rock music at all and it doesn't certainly show any kind of reminiscence of a Post-Punk formula which Goth music is strongly connected. So, I'm curious to why RepublicanJacobite is constantly adding a wrong information in this page, when it has been widely accepted that Gothic Metal didn't come from Gothic Rock ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 01:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no edit war. You keep removing valid information based on nothing but your opinion. That is vandalism. Please stop. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not just ImaginaryVoncroy's opinion though, it's generally agreed that the musical styles of gothic rock and gothic metal are unrelated, even if many people in the goth scene do enjoy listening to both kinds of music. Ash Loomis (talk) 05:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

As I was expecing RepublicanJacobite didn't justify his edition because he doesn't really know what he's talking about. How your edition is a valid information? Based on what? You keep adding a wrong information based on nothing. I cannot do much, so I ask someone to delete the information RepublicanJacobite because it shows pure ignorance about Gothic Rock scene ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 03:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Gothic metal isn't a fusion genre. The genre may have "Gothic" in the name but it is no more Goth than Cyber-Punk is Punk. That they both have Gothic in their names is merely coincidence. Gothic metal is not influenced by Goth in terms of music. Aesthetically, perhaps, but not musically. No offense, but I think somebody is too quick to erroneously identify opposing edits as "vandalism". Simply disagreeing with an edit doesn't make the user a vandal and claiming that they are just because you disagree comes off as a bit puerile.Vampider (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Alice Cooper

How can any article about Goth not include Alice Cooper? Alice Cooper is to Goth what Iggy is to Punk. Goth is an aesthetic, not a specific musical genre. Jetblack500 (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

He's metal. Metal has fuck all to do with Goth.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.58.8 (talk • contribs) 22:14, August 10, 2010

Gothic Rock is a music genre and Goth subculture a music-based subculture, have you even read the articles? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little unclear on who you're supporting with your comment. Also, there ARE people out there who are a part of the Goth scene and don't need to read wikipedia articles in order to have an understanding of said scene. And, as stated above, metal has nothing to do with Goth. Most Goths I know despise anything related to metal or the notion that Goth and metal are in any way related. "Alice Cooper is to Goth what Iggy is to Punk." Really? Alice Cooper is nothing to Goth. He's metal. You must be thinking of Rozz Williams.75.180.56.145 (talk) 07:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Psychedelic rock:

Should not be listed under "stylistic origins". This kind of music was popular before the existence of Punk and Gothic rock but is by no means responsible for the existence of Goth. Goth was born of the Punk movement. Punk was the antithesis of the hippie movement ("never trust a hippie"/"call all hippies boring old farts and set light to them"). Psychedelic music was neither responsible for Goth nor an influence on Goth. Punk was. Calling psychedelic rock Goth's "predecessors" does not imply that the 2 are somehow related. It simply means one came before the other. Really? Goth and psychedelic rock? Apart from disco or metal, I don't think you can get any more polar opposite. Calling for consensus here. Should "psychedelic" be listed under "stylistic origins" on this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.53.229 (talk) 05:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

My only concern is that you are removing a sourced statement. Wikipedia articles are not created based on opinion, but on reliable sources. I don't care what is listed under stylistic origins, as long as it is sourced. Beach drifter (talk) 05:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not about your concern. It's about people making "sources" say anything they want them to say regardless of whether they are true or not. I could find 3 sources that claim the sky is pink. That doesn't mean it's true or it belongs on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.102.59 (talk) 06:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone have a copy of the Reynolds book? The wording may be significant in a distpute like this and unfortunately I do not have a copy.--SabreBD (talk) 07:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Scott Walls interview "Psychedelic rock did not create hippies, hippies created psychedelic rock" Malcolm McLaren & Johnny Rotten defined Punk rock in the 70's and the quotes "never trust a hippie" and "call all hippies boring old farts and set light to them" can be attribured to them. Punk was a backlash against the hippie culture. Goth is an offshoot of Punk, so saying that psychedelic influenced the Gothic music scene is absurd. One band (Siouxsie) MAY have been partially influenced by psychedelic rock but to assert that the entire genre was inspired by hippie music given it's Punk rock roots is ludicrous.71.79.102.59 (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Who told you that psychedelic rock is the music of "hippies" and the goth-rock music is "punk. " Gothic rock formed from post-punk and not punk rock ... psychedelic-rock group The Velvet Underground is influenced goth-rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.205.19.215 (talk) 12:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Learn to read. Goth CAME FROM Punk. Hippies created psychedelic rock so psychedelic rock IS the music of hippies. "The Velvet Underground is influenced goth-rock" this statement makes NO sense. Wait for CONSENSUS before re-adding that unfactual statement. Thanks!71.79.255.156 (talk) 20:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Well so far the consensus seems to be that you are a bit rude and are making assumptions based on personal beliefs. Additionally, it stands to reason that we need to wait for consensus before removing sourced content from the article, not before re-adding it. WP:BRD. Beach drifter (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Not personal beliefs but historic fact. Also, where is this source? What does it say? What does it prove? Anybody actually read this page? Does it say that psychedelic rock came before Goth or that it actually influenced every single band that are considered original Goth... or just one? Sounds more like personal beliefs factor into why 178.205.19.215 keeps re-adding it. Where in the article does it say that psychedelic has anything at all to do with Goth? Jazz came before Goth too. Should that be in the "stylistic origins" section too? How about cave men beating on rocks with sticks? And "rude"? I find it rude that we're asserting that people who find hippie music offensive are somehow influenced by tree hugger gibberish.71.79.255.156 (talk) 00:03, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

If you can source your statement that goth fans all find psychedilic rock offensive, I will gladly eat my hat and then argue for your edit. You could probably of guessed, but if you go to the psychedelic rock article, jazz is listed as a stylistic origin. Beach drifter (talk) 00:28, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

As said before it is best to quote the book. I do have the book and will try and check but I have the smaller US version and little time this weekend. To the "debate" what many are forgetting is that psychedelic music was far from all peace and love. There were the "psychedelic punk" groups like The Sonics and there was this group you might have heard of, The Doors who did not fit your strict definition of hippie. But gothic seems like six degrees of separation but if Reynolds said it fine. Edkollin (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Edkollin. I will see if I can find a copy of the British version. I have no objection if it is in the source, although it should really be in the body of the article and not just the infobox.--SabreBD (talk) 09:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

"Many goth bands use drum machines that do not stress the back beat in the rhythm. Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure tended to play the flanging guitar effect, producing a brittle, cold, and harsh sound that contrasted with their psychedelic rock predecessors"

It sounds like Goth and Psychedelic rock have very little in common here so I'm surprised it was used as a source. Use of drum machines, flanging guitar effect, brittle cold and harsh sound and that it contrasted with Psychedelic rock. Sounds like there are nothing but differences being pointed out here and nothing in the way of similarity. Not sure how this is a stylistic origin, exactly. This just illuminates that these 2 genres don't seem to be in any way related. Use of the word predecessor sounds to me like Psychedelic rock was a music genre that came before Gothic rock and not much else here. WJKovacs (talk) 07:23, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Glam rock

This keeps getting deleted from the infobox, but, unlike the psychedelic reference above, it is clearly sourced in what is generally considered the most significant book on post-punk. For the record Reynolds (p. 420) notes: "And yet Goth and New Pop had something in common: routes in glam. ABC and the Human League loved Roxy and Bowie, but so did Bauhaus and Sex Gang Children. New Pop and Goth both represented a return to glamour and stardom - a backlash against post-punk's anti-mystique". I don't have any strong feelings on it, and how it is included is certainly up for debate, but as a principle we have to follow what the major sources indicate.--SabreBD (talk) 05:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no "glamour and stardom" to Goth. It was a backlash against disco which was flashy, high energy and happy (which is why EBM has no place in a Goth club, see how that works, EBM fans?). Goth was slow, haunting and dark. Glam and Goth are not even similar. The only thing they have in common is that the bands wore makeup. Hardly as reason to compare the two. You may as well compare Bauhaus to Inane Clown Posse [sic], or Corpus Delicti to Winger. Liking a band doesn't mean your band sounds anything like said band. If your sound was influenced by another genre then, sure, said genre was a "stylistic origin". But if you just happen to wear the same kind of, say, pants as another musician then they're hardly an influence on your genre. Music genres are defined by their sound, not by what the musicians are wearing. Apart from wearing makeup, what do glam and Goth have in common? I'm coming up with "nothing". Anyone else?65.24.131.138 (talk) 04:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

First, it is not my view of influence, but a reliable source and in fact one of the most important. Second, it would be a mistake to think that the implication is that all of glam rock was an influence, as clearly a very specific strain is being pointed to here, Sweet and Slade are not being pointed to. Third, while aesthetics are a significant part of a genre (in punk for example) reliable sources indicate that they also affected the sound. For example, in Valerie Steele and Jennifer Park's Gothic: Dark Glamour (Yale University Press, 2008), they indicate that: "while goth's costumed performances originated in glam rock's aesthetics, musically gothic rock was shaped more by Bowie's and Iggy Pop's Berlin albums." For more specific details on style see [[3]], which includes material on singing style, lyrics and guitar riffs, among other things. The fact is that reliable sources point to this as a major point of origin. Perhaps the best solution is some careful wording in the "Style, roots and influences" section that makes the nature and limits of influence clear. This has to be in proportion to the scale of the article and in balance with other influences, so just a sentence or two would probably be appropriate.--SabreBD (talk) 07:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Reversion of recent edits

A series of recent edits by Woovee, mainly concerning the origins of the genre, have been repeatedly reverted. These edits appear to be reliably sourced and no alternative evidence has been offered. It would be useful if those reverting could explain the reasons for these reverts so that and edit war can be averted and consensus developed over these issues.--SabreBD (talk) 07:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)