Talk:Grateful Dead

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Band lineups and timeline[edit]

On March 22, the table of band lineups, and the bar chart of the membership timeline, were removed from this article, and moved to the List of Grateful Dead band members article. I'm restoring the lineups and the timeline to this article. I think they're both really valuable as a reference, and belong in this article. As for the separate list of band members, I don't have a strong opinion about it. I'd be okay with either merging it back into this article, or leaving it separate. At any rate I'm not removing the table or graph from the list article at this time, so now they'll be in both places. Mudwater (Talk) 22:00, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Upon further review, maybe it would be better to take the table and the graph out of the List of Grateful Dead band members article, and just have them here. The other article would still have some value, by presenting band membership information in a different format, and so it could still be left separate. What does everyone else think about all this? Mudwater (Talk) 22:13, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
That's a good point, I support the proposed change. List articles are generally used to navigate to other articles. The table and timeline provides substantial content that fits better in the main article than the list article. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 22:22, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

It's been two weeks and no one has objected to this idea, so I've removed the table and the bar chart from the other article, List of Grateful Dead band members, and left them in this article, Grateful Dead. Mudwater (Talk) 14:14, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Article photo[edit]

I am the contributor of the photo now in this article, and yes it is better than nothing but far from good. Isn't there a fair use logo we can use? I really don't like this photo as the infobox image.

anyone else have any thoughts on this? And Mudwater, I will ask him if I can get something from him that's better for the article.

May I humbly propose either the cover of the first album,GratefulDead1967LP.jpg or the skull and Roses album cover, GDskullandroses.jpg ??? Marcia Wright (talk) 21:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the infobox photo, while nice in its own way, is not that great in the sense that it doesn't show the whole band. But I'm not sure if it would be okay to have a logo instead, which is sort of too bad because the band has several great ones. (I heard a rumor recently that the skull and roses image is their official logo.) Template:Infobox musical artist says that the infobox should have "an image of the act". WP:MUSTARD seems not to address the issue. So I'm not sure what to think. I guess the options are to leave the picture there for now, to take it out and have nothing until a more worthy photo is available, or to put in a logo and see what happens. Mudwater (Talk) 23:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Where's the photo of Jerry Garcia? I mean, come on! ;) --THE FOUNDERS INTENT PRAISE 14:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Concert Tours Section[edit]

Because the Grateful Dead were known for their numerous concerts, a section for those concert tours should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.129.176.29 (talk) 00:40, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

It also states that they played 182 shows on the page. That is just not true the number is far greater than 182. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.190.217 (talk) 01:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Genre in infobox[edit]

A consensus was established that, for several reasons, "Rock" is the only genre that should be listed in the infobox. This was determined in the archived discussion section Talk:Grateful Dead/Archive 1#Genre. If you wish to discuss the matter further, please do so here and not on the archived talk page. Thanks. Mudwater (Talk) 00:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I have added a comment to the infobox in the genre section to direct future editors to the talk page about the genre. Hopefully this will help everyone to save some time in the future, and people won't have to get their changes reverted. -Addionne (talk) 12:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Good idea. Thanks. Mudwater (Talk) 13:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I would encourage anyone interested in this question to read the archived talk page section at Talk:Grateful Dead/Archive 1#Genre. It's only about a screen's worth of discussion but it covers the subject pretty well. To summarize: (1) The Grateful Dead had many musical influences and so there are many sub-genres of rock that could be applied to their music -- so many that it would be hard to choose just a few. (2) Their style tended to change and evolve over time. (3) Template:Infobox musical artist#Genre says to aim for generality. With that being said, I for one am open to further discussion about this. Mudwater (Talk) 21:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Band membership[edit]

In the past there were a number of discussions about who should be listed as band members in the infobox, and the consensus was not to include Bruce Hornsby, Robert Hunter, or John Perry Barlow. As part of these discussions it was also agreed to list Hornsby in the table of band lineups. If anyone wants to reopen the discussion, feel free to do so here, but first please read (without updating) the following archived discussion threads:

Mudwater (Talk) 22:47, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Hate to bring up this again but I still feel that Hunter should be listed as a member. The RnR hall of fame should be enough to have him listed. The band's website also clearly lists him as being in the band. Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 13:19, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
I still think that Hunter should not be listed as a band member in the infobox. It's nice that the band officially considers him one of them, and that he got into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a band member. But, he didn't perform onstage with the Dead, so in conventional terms, that a casual reader is likely to understand, he wasn't a member of the band. And that's my understanding too -- no matter how much the musicians like you, you have to get up onstage and play music with them to be a member of a band. Of course the article itself should explain his very substantial contributions to the Dead's music. As always, the more editors who participate in this discussion, the better. Mudwater (Talk) 00:31, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
From a band point of view, they considered him a member, so we should list him as a member. From a Wikipedia policy perspective, reliable sources (such as the R&R hall of fame and the website of the band, a primary source, but in this case reliable) describe him as a band member, so that's what we should present. Hunter was not a performer on stage with them, but without him, their story would have been far different. To be clear, this is not the same as the question about Hornsby, or even Barlow, who certainly has been very important to the band. From the beginning, Hunter was an essential element of their formula. Most importantly, the band considers him a member, and they get to say who is and is not a member, they're the band! --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 04:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
My vote would be to add Hunter but add "lyricist" after his name. This may help the casual reader to understand his role, it should also be better explained in the article. Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 09:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
If you look at Template:Infobox musical artist#Past members, it says, "Past members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names," so adding "lyricist" in parentheses would go against this guideline. The idea is that the infobox should contain an "at a glance" summary of only the most important information -- such as who was a member of the band -- with the full explanation in the article. Mudwater (Talk) 11:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
OK then I would say add him without it. He would go between Pigpen and Mickey. I still feel that the band saying he was in the band and the Hall of Fame is more then enough to add him. Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 12:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The following comment was just posted in the archived talk page section Talk:Grateful Dead/Archive 1#Where are the other band members?. I am moving it here, to the current discussion. So, in this comment references to "above" are references to posts in the archived talk page section. -- Mudwater

In the final analysis, the opinions rendered by Wiki editors above are all irrelevant. Jerry Garcia, Bob Weir, and Phil Lesh all considered Robert Hunter to be a member of the Grateful Dead, even though he did not play with them on stage. This was decided long before Wikipedia even existed, and the opinions of the band in this matter are the only ones that count. There is ample documentation of the fact of Hunter's status as a member of The Grateful Dead in numerous biographical accounts of both the band and Garcia, and this fact was acknowledged by the Rock Hall of Fame, as stated above. If the Beatles said that Brian Epstein was a Beatle, and they continued to maintain that he was indeed in the Beatles long after his death, then he would have to be listed as one, even though he never played a note of music with them. They didn't, so he's only listed as their manager. To exclude Hunter (or possibly Barlow, for that matter) because his role in the band does not neatly fit some categorical definition of what constitutes being a band member as described by people who were not members of that particular band would be misleading and inaccurate, would remove the veneer of objectivity, not the other way around. If there was doubt in this case, if it was a question of sifting through ambiguous data as to whether Hunter could be a member of the band even though there was no real substantiation from other band members or other extenuating evidence, then some kind of categorical decision made by Wiki editors or any historian would have elements of subjectivity. There's no ambiguity in this case, however. The band has already stated to interviewers and biographers many times, clearly and definitively, that Hunter was the member of the band who did not perform on stage. To state otherwise is to contradict what they themselves have already stated, what is already part of the historical record. Do the Dead have to actually talk to a Wiki editor, or make the edit themselves, for their clearly stated pronouncement to be valid here? Hunter was in the Grateful Dead. Why? Because the Grateful Dead said he was. End of discussion. I am re-editing him back in as a member — if you have any interest in historical honesty, please do not revert this again.PJtP (talk) 03:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Although I am in fact interested in historical honesty, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Hunter, and Barlow, should not be listed in the band member section of the Grateful Dead template, nor should they be listed as band members in the infobox for the Grateful Dead article, because that would mislead the typical Wikipedia reader into thinking that they performed on stage with the band. It's more or less true that Garcia and the others considered Hunter to be a member of the band, and it would be appropriate to mention that in the article -- it's already alluded to in the Membership section -- but to list Hunter as a member in the template or the infobox goes against the general understanding of what it means to be a member of a band, and would cause people who read the article to misunderstand the history of the band. That's why it's up to us, not the members of the Grateful Dead, to decide who is listed as a member in those two places. Mudwater (Talk) 07:15, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Fer crissakes... If Bruce Hornsby deserves to be on this page then so do all the members of Jefferson Airplane, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 17:16, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
I completely disagree. Hornsby played with the Dead on a couple of tours. That is not the same thing as a band member of another band opening for them (i.e., Jefferson Airplane) or another musician who happens to play with them on a weekend. Hornsby was with the Dead long enough to be considered a member. Otherwise, how can you distinguish Vince Welnick? Lottamiata (talk) 04:41, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
hate to beat this dead horse again but I see that Bruce is again listed. Has something changed? I also see Hunter in there but if he is to be left he is in the wrong order. I would just make the edits but I know there has been a lot of debate on this in the past and as far as I can tell it has been agreed to leave Bruce out as he never was a "member". I for now moved him to before Vince and also Hunter to before Micky as that would be the correct order if they are to stay.Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 13:34, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Nothing's changed. My opinion is still that Bruce Hornsby and Robert Hunter should both be left out of the infobox -- Hornsby because he was never an official member, Hunter because he never performed as a musician as part of the Grateful Dead and was therefore not a member in the conventional sense, even if the band made him a sort of honorary member. My reading of the more recent discussions on this topic is that most editors are okay with leaving Hornsby out, and some but not all are good with leaving Hunter out. I also still think that, as a sort of compromise, Hornsby should be left in the Band Lineups table, since he did sit in for most shows for a year and a half. What does everyone else think? If we can get a strong majority opinion on these two, we should go with that. Mudwater (Talk) 22:50, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
That is what i thought. I have always agreed with you on Bruce and that is why I was surprised to see him in the infobox again, it also looks like he has been in there for a while now. I guess it slipped by everyone. I think that there was a pretty strong Consensus that Bruce should not be listed. Also Bruce and the boys have in the past publicly stated that Bruce was never an official member of the band and this is reflected in the article. As for Hunter I still feel that as odd as it is he should be listed as the Band considered him to "be in the band" and also perhaps a larger argument is the fact that he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a member of the band.[1] It would be nice to hear what others have to say on this. Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 16:10, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Are you okay with leaving Bruce Hornsby in the Band Lineups table if he's removed from the infobox? Mudwater (Talk) 12:21, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Another point about all this: I definitely think that whatever's decided about the list of band members in the infobox should also be applied to the list of members in the navbox. Mudwater (Talk) 12:26, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Retroactive straw poll[edit]

At the top of this talk page section are links to archived discussions about this subject. Ignoring those for now, the current talk page section goes back about 18 months. To decide who should be listed as a band member, we're trying to establish a consensus, by discussion and persuasion. We're not voting. But, I thought it would be interesting to see who said what in this section. Here's my interpretation of what's been said, and please let me know if you think I'm wrong:

  • Hunter in infobox?
    • Y: Drumzandspace2000, Jack-A-Roe, PJtP
    • N: Mudwater
  • Hornsby in infobox?
    • Y: [no one]
    • N: Drumzandspace2000, Mudwater, anonymous editor
  • Hornsby in Band Lineups table?
    • Y: Mudwater
    • N: [no one]

So based on that, it looks like Hornsby is out of the infobox (and out of the list of band members in the navbox), but he stays in the Band Lineups table. As far as Hunter goes, it's 3 – 1 for leaving him in. As much as I think Hunter should be left out, it looks like I'm the only one who feels that way, right now anyway, so I'd say we should leave him in, unless consensus changes. Mudwater (Talk) 00:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

First time I've read any of this, but your conclusion is the one I came to while reading it. Rothorpe (talk) 00:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Okay, I think we're there. So, I just took Bruce Hornsby back out of the infobox, and back out of the members section of the navbox, and left Robert Hunter in. Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I for one would be willing to talk about this some more, but I do think we've achieved somewhat of a consensus. Mudwater (Talk) 03:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Mudwater thanks for all your work on this and the page in general! Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 11:36, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

nothing about the (rest of) The Dead vs. Mickey Hart/his father[edit]

When Hart left under a cloud of bad feeling, it was quite a big deal at the time. It was duly covered in the music mags and, while I am not personally a Dead Head, among those that were at the time, it was very controversial. I think this episode warrants a short paragraph that sticks closely to the facts, and how Hart rejoined later on (his estrangement from his dad.)HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFans


On another note, I noticed in the archives some argument about post-American Beauty Grateful Dead. Well, here's the rub - it can't be argued that anything the band did after this album has any level of the impact that this group made from The Grateful Dead thru Live/Dead to American Beauty. This was by any honest examination the core years of the group's fame and influence, and their subsequent career needs to be viewed as a rather slow decline into comfortable music-making with a hardcore audience that kept the flag waving - but after this time, the Counter-Culture was moribund, and the Dead's influence waned greatly. The article always needs to stress this time in the band's career - to do otherwise distorts the history of the group.

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011[edit]

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

--CactusBot (talk) 10:10, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. BNutzer (talk) 13:30, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Consensus Needed[edit]

I've noticed that band pages on wikipedia seem to have their infobox's run under different rules. Some bands once dissolved have their latest lineup mentioned under "current members", some do not. Some band's, such as Lynyrd Skynyrd, have deceased former members listed as deceased, others, such at the Grateful Dead, do not. I added the term "(deceased)" to those members of the Grateful Dead who are no longer alive, and explained that band pages should all follow the same pattern, yet another user reverted my edit without so much as an explanation. A general consensus is needed for how band infobox's should be run and ALL of them must be run the same.Burbridge92 (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

You're right, and the good news is, there is already consensus about these two questions. You can see it at Template:Infobox musical artist# past_members, where it says that the past_members field should list "Past members of the group, listed in order of joining with no other notation than names. If a group is inactive, all members should be listed here, and none in the "current_members" field." I would encourage you to update other band infoboxes to follow these agreed upon standards. Mudwater (Talk) 23:27, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the information Mudwater. I will review the requirements and act accordingly with regards to band pages.Burbridge92 (talk) 23:29, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. And also, you might get less of an argument when you do the updates if you include a link to the standard in your edit summary.  :) Mudwater (Talk) 23:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Thanks again.Burbridge92 (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Artwork[edit]

I'd suggest to add the work done by Rick Griffin. I'll do so as soon as I find time to do it. --Olivier Debre (talk) 09:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Band Formed in Palo Alto, CA not San Francisco[edit]

There are dozens and dozens of references to this in books, magazine articles, etc. I don't have the time right now to look up any, but I will. This is also the noted by the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame, "Formed in Palo Alto, California, in 1965 from a previous incarnation as a bar band called the Warlocks, the Grateful Dead were at the epicenter of the sweeping cultural event that was San Francisco in the Sixties." http://rockhall.com/exhibits/grateful-dead/ Dogtownclown (talk) 21:34, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

You are correct. I just double check in Phil Lesh's book "Searching for the Sound", as I had it handy, and it is Palo Alto. Drumzandspace2000 (talk) 10:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't have access to Lesh's book, but I cited another one, as well as The Music Box. Dogtownclown (talk) 16:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

member's navboxes[edit]

just added these and will be adding them to other GD articles as well. feedback and additions would be appreciated, in particlar I would like to have more in the related articles sections of the solo members. UselessToRemain (talk) 17:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Citations needed?[edit]

"There are many contemporary incarnations of the Dead, with the most prominent touring acts being Furthur and Phil Lesh & Friends." My first reaction to this was to say that it omits Ratdog, which it seems to me would be as prominent as Phil & Friends. But the real issue is that it's a subjective statement not backed up by any references. The article is peppered with other statements that, although factual, don't cite sources. Should there be some "citation needed" tags added? Rickmbari (talk) 04:10, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

In my view, no, "citation needed" tags are not needed. Those are more appropriate for statements that are controversial or dubious, which is not the case here. However I would encourage you to help enhance the article by improving statements such as the one you mentioned. How about something like, "There are several contemporary bands that feature former members of the Grateful Dead, including Furthur, RatDog, Phil Lesh and Friends, 7 Walkers, the Mickey Hart Band, and the Donna Jean Godchaux Band." Or of course you can find and add citations where appropriate. Generally it's best to just go ahead and edit the article and make it better. Thanks. Mudwater (Talk) 11:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Additions to the "book"[edit]

I have never added to a Wikipedia book. it seems straightforward to do so. I want to add Sandy Rothman to associated people at the Book:Grateful Dead. any objections? Also, I wonder if Rolling Thunder (person) is too tangential to add. (i was around when Hart and Thunder were hanging out, seemed an important relationship) Mercurywoodrose (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. I just can't decide where the best place to talk about this is, here, or at Book talk:Grateful Dead. Mudwater (Talk) 11:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Bruce Hornsby revisited[edit]

Lottamiata has re-added Bruce Hornsby to the list of band members in the infobox, and posted in this discussion here. As discussed above, there was a previous consensus to list Hornsby in the Band Lineups section and in the Timeline, but not in the infobox, as a compromise or middle position showing that he was "sort of" a member of the Grateful Dead. If you look at the first post above, under the #Band membership header, there are links to a number of previous discussions on this topic. So, maybe we should talk about it some more. Personally I'm open to further discussion. Mudwater (Talk) 10:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Membership Either he was or wasn't a member. If he was, then he should be on the footer, in the infobox, listed in List of Grateful Dead band members, categorized in Category:Grateful Dead members, etc. Splitting the difference is just confusing. Why would you have separate entries for the same list multiple times in the same reference work? As for whether or not he was a member, he introduced the band when they were inaugurated into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and their site doesn't list him amongst their members. —Justin (koavf)TCM 07:07, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
In the article it says he never "offically" was a member, I cant see the sources (books that I dont have), so he shouldnt be listed as a member. Listing as consensus previous makes sense, and is in-line with the phrasing in the article. Murry1975 (talk) 14:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm impressed!`[edit]

Everyone seems to have worked really hard on this article. While it will never be perfect, and it will never please everyone, I think this is one of the most well-written wikipedia articles I've seen.

OTOH, could we possibly include how Bob and Jerry met? Looks like Bobby gets shorted a little in the narrative.

That being said, VERY informative article. Jfulbright (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Timeline colors[edit]

Is there some standard for timeline colors for band memberships? And if yes, where is that documented? Or if not, I'll change the timeline colors back to the way they were before this edit. Thanks. Mudwater (Talk) 01:52, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know, there is none. The reason I did it is because I am trying to get the timelines to have the same colors for specific instruments/vocals so it's easier for people to read, instead of having random colors assigned to them. KyoufuNoDaiou (talk) 02:28, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
That's a reasonable goal, but trying to accomplish this yourself might not be the best approach. Other editors have changed those colors in different ways in the last year or two, so you might unintentionally be working at cross-purposes with them. If you want the colors in different timelines to be standardized across articles, perhaps you should start a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rock music? Mudwater (Talk) 03:00, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Done, thanks! We'll see how it goes. KyoufuNoDaiou (talk) 04:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be no general agreement about this, and not much discussion in general, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rock music#Standardized Timeline Colors. So, I'm planning on changing the colors back for this article's timeline, in the near future. The colors chosen by KyoufuNoDaiou are not bad, but I think the previous color scheme was a bit easier to distinguish, and slightly more attractive too. As always, other editors are encouraged to give their opinions. Mudwater (Talk) 22:20, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Recently the timeline colors were changed yet again. Since there's no agreement within WikiProject Rock Music, or anywhere else, on standardized colors for band timelines, I'm going ahead now and changing this article's timeline colors back to the way they've been for at lest the last few years. Mudwater (Talk) 19:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

List of all concerts[edit]

I would like to to see a list of all GD concerts in chronological order, yes there are over 2000, so what? What is wrong with listing all of them? Constructive ideas on this topic are welcome.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.67.228 (talk) 03:06, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Adding a list of all the concerts would make the article too long. There are guidelines for how to improve a Wikipedia article, and how big an article should be, and because the Grateful Dead played so many concerts, this really isn't the best place to list them. As you may know, there are whole books dedicated to listing Dead concerts and the songs that were played. There are also several websites that contain that info in searchable form, including these:
So, while a list of all Grateful Dead concerts is in itself very interesting and worthwhile, I really don't think this article is the right place for it. Mudwater (Talk) 14:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe list should be a separate article.....if venues are listed first, perhaps in its own article, followed by a list of play dates, it will be compact...also venues can be referenced to exsisting wikipedia pages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.67.228 (talk) 08:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist}} template (see the help page).