Talk:Great Purge

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So many of the victims were Jews![edit]

It's fair to say that Jewish members of the Party elite and intelligentsia were disproportionately affected by Stalin's purges. The anti-Jewish aspect of the purges goes unmentioned in the Western literature, but this was a watershed moment in history when the 'Jewish community' (at first - domestically, and later - internationally) began to turn against the Communist regime. Today you can still find Jewish marxists, who are very fond of Trotsky and Lenin, but none of them worship Stalin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.26.83.107 (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


Historiographical debates[edit]

Should there not be some mention of the intentionalist and revisionist arguments concerning the reasons for the Purges. NMO

Why is the work of Grover Furr not included?[edit]

Grover Furr's work is invaluable in giving a full account and any entry without reference to him can have no real value as a source about the Stalinist Soviet republic.

50.149.24.221 (talk) 16:37, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Comparisons with Tsarist regime[edit]

This edit is disputed. - Altenmann >t 04:45, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Please don't include unmotivated numerical comparisons with the previous Tsarist regime. Unless this is explained by some type of context. Without reference to any historiographic context (like a wider political debate among historians), it's really just a gratuitous way of trivializing Russia under the tsars. It's also a very uninformative comparison since it somehow equates two very different regimes belonging to two very different eras.

If Pipes has a good reason for mentioning this, please include his reasoning instead of merely parroting him.

Peter Isotalo 01:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think It is directly relevant and natural to compare how many people killed by Bolsheviks and by Tsar. Especially in the view that Bolsheviks (and other contemporary revolutionaries) whined about the brutality of Tsarist regime. Especially that the comparison is referenced from relevant scholarly source. YOur opinions about "trivializing", "unmotivated" etc. is insufficient to remove directly related, valid and referenced text. If a serious historian makes such a compariosn in a book, it is not a job of a wikipedian to issue any denigrating judgements why he does this. We don't need any wider context than the context of the article. The book cited is exactly and directly within this context, not some random mention in passing. The comparison may be both between very similar and very different things. And the era was the same: 20th century. THe country was the same ; regime was different, hence comparison. - Altenmann >t 04:37, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Uhm, it's not the same century, obviously since it refers to executions of the span of almost a century. The selection of time period for the Tsarist regime also appears to be rather strange, since it stops at 1910 (notably excluding the war).
Saying "Pipes writes it, so you can't remove it" is pretty spurious since authors includes tons of content that isn't automatically included in articles. The problem is, again, that this particular comparison doesn't attempt to say anything but "the Bolsheviks were worse than the Tsarist regime". How exactly does that make any of the death figures easier to understand? What perspective does it serve to shed light on?
Peter Isotalo 14:33, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
re:pretty spurious" Yes, books have tons of contents. We include content relevant to the topic. In our case the topic is the number of executions. Comparisons is a standard scientific way. 16:34, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
re: "the problem is again" You answer your question yourself: this particular comparison says "the Bolsheviks were worse than the Tsarist regime". If you don't understand the importance of this statement, then you probably don't understand the topic at all, which is about the brutality of Bolsheviks, which motivated the Russian Revolution by the brutality and other unfairness of Tsarist regime. The whole propaganda of Bolsheviks was "Life has become better, life has become merrier" (Stalin, 1935). - Altenmann >t 16:34, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
re: "not the same century: - Isn't it telling that bolsheviks executed orders of magnitude more people in two years than the "brutal Tsarist regime" (headed by "Nicholas the Bloody" and other "vicious" tsars) in the whole century. And we are not talking about weapons of mass destruction here. - Altenmann >t 16:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
re: 1910. Come on, you are nitpicking now. I'd guess this was gthe range he had statistics. It did exclude the war but it include the previous revolution of 1905-1907 - a good chance for "Nicholas the Bloody" to show his "bloodiness". - Altenmann >t 16:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
If you want the comparison from the same century, enjoy: Russian_Revolution_of_1905#Repression. - Altenmann >t 16:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Heck, comparisons of Bolshevik regime and Tsarist regime is such a common thing that it is even the matter of school assignments and cheatsheets (blacklisted or something?): www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEgQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hoddereducation.co.uk%2Fmedia%2FDocuments%2Fmagazine-extras%2F20th%2520Century%2520History%2520Review%2FTCHR%2520Vol%25209%2520No%25201%2FHisRev-9_1-Nicholas-II-and-Lenin.doc%3Fext%3D.doc&ei=YQ-7UqDJJdHkoATMyYG4AQ&usg=AFQjCNH5YeHYKx5n6A_6ZJjJ_i5nPRY7qA&bvm=bv.58187178,d.cGU&cad=rja),
that's why I was utterly surprized with your objections. - Altenmann >t 17:12, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
(Comment from uninvolved editor) Whom, exactly, are you talking to? Erpert WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 06:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
I'd ask you the same, actually.
Peter Isotalo 14:33, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
<huh?>I am talking to wikipedia community, explaining my position on the issue. In fact I even requested Third Opinion. - Altenmann >t 16:34, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
P.S. Reminds me "Are you talking to me?", especially the part " Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?" :-) I am sure it was not the intention. I did answer the question, but now please explain the purpose of it, which evades me. - Altenmann >t 16:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

(Comment from uninvolved editor)(Non expert!) It seems the statement "the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims" is biased. A victim is someone harmed in violation of the law - were all 1,548,366 people detained in violation of the law? There are numerous other uses of the word victim, but the rest seem to be vague on subject (i.e. possibly only referring to actual victims), those who were exonerated, people who were actually killed, etc. Due to ignorance and dispute on the section, I'm not editing. In regards to conflict, as non-expert, it seems to be a non-arbitrary comparison, but it would be just as valid to compare to post-Stalin era, or even modern time. If the point is to state how terrible it was, making a comparison does not do that (1.5 million arrests and well over a half million shot tends to do that by itself, without specifying it's more than "1 per week"). If the point is to state that there was as increase in arrests and executions, then stating "compared with x executions in the year xxxx" without a specific comparison to Tsarists. Just my 2 cents.Roguetech (talk) 17:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

  • re: "victims" - fixed. I replaced with the neutral word "persons". However in the context of political repressions carried out by NKVD the term 'victim' is commonly accepted despite the fact that these 1.5 Million were actually detained according to the law. The whole point is that the law itself and its implementation were brutal. - Altenmann >t 02:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • re: "1 per week". That's what was in the source. And it was a correct mathematical way. You know the concept of 'speed', right? Comparison with year (and with modern times) is pointless: the regimes (both described as "brutal" by their respective opponents) are compared, not years. (Dis you read my explanations above?) That's why you will probably not find this in sources (and hence in wikipedia. I am sure you know the rule WP:CITE.) by the way, it is not simply "more than 1 per week". It is "1000 per day" for 2 years nonstop that is telling. - Altenmann >t 02:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
    I did see books and articles with tables of annual statistics of arrests, deportations and executions. But this historical material did not find place into some correspondingly detailed wikipedia sub-articles yet. - Altenmann >t 03:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Comparison[edit]

The earlier Tsarist executions were a reaction to the killing of about 1,000 Tsarist officials by Leftists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.190.126 (talk) 11:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Tsar Alexander II was killed in 1881. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.222.199.204 (talk) 11:52, 23 March 2014 (UTC)