Talk:Great power

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Former good article Great power was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.


Italy[edit]

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 08:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

You will need to find some reliable secondary sources which specifically claims Italy to be a great power. We cannot ourselves determine who is a great power based on statistics and other circumstantial information as that would be original research. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 10:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

There is a broad consensus among the academic community that China, Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Japan, and the United States are the worlds contemporary 'Great Powers'. Likewise, India is considered by several prominent academics to either to be emerging as or having already emerged as a Great Power in its own right (due to its rapidly growing economic, political, cultural and military influence around the globe). Traditionally Great Powers are the worlds most influential and powerful states "having the ability to exert its influence on a global scale" (quoting from article). So ask yourself; Where does Italy meet this criteria? And on what major international forums of discussion is Italy present so it can exert its influence? The answer im afraid is it doesn't and it isn't. Italy does not exert global influence and power like a true Great Power - in fact, beyond the borders of the European Union Italy is largely ignored and its opinions irrelevant. Look at the recent talks with Iran last month - the BBC reports Iran "will meet six major world powers at the UN this week to discuss Tehran's nuclear programme... Britain, China, France, Russia and the US - and also Germany (the P5+1 group)". You see, when tough decisions are to be made that affect every nation in the world it is the Great Powers which are consulted, and it is their opinions and decisions that the worlds listens to, not Middle Powers like Italy. Consider this too, within the European Union, it is Germany, Britain and France which are considered the leaders and most powerful states of Europe (they are described as the EU three!!) - so even within the borders of the European Union Italy is only considered as a Middle Power.Antiochus the Great (talk) 13:09, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 13:36, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi. You'll have to achieve broad consensus before any inclusion(or omission) is made from the article. and by broad consensus, I mean atleast 15 editors from the whole world. Not 3 or 4 from a same country and regionsarcasm intended This article is seen by hell lots of people from around the world so what we do will directly affect the minds of all of them. And yes, you do need scholarly references to support Italy. Mere statistics won't do. If only military statistics are considered, then I fear the UK and France are puny compared to Russia or China or even India! Another important requirement for a great power is shamelessly needlessly interfering in other countries' sovereign affairs in the name of world peace which I'm afraid both India and Italy won't usually do..Don't you think? Thanks, ƬheStrikeΣagle sorties 14:52, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 15:04, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

I mean not extremely strong. Look at UK and France? Removing Nukes, how strong are they? The thing is you will have to exert force outside your country with the small forces you have, like UK or France does. Although India has a larger military than UK or France, the reason it's called a second-tier power is because of it's non-aggressive attitude. Atleast to be called a great power, you will have to exert hard power on others, something Italy and India seem to be missing. As I earlier told, my statement doesn't endorse anything. You will have to get consensus and the discussion must be closed as successful by an admin. Only then you will have a chance to add Italy. A few months ago, there was a mis-adventure when 3 UK-US users established consensus among themselves and removed Russia and Brazil from the Potential Superpowers list. This was later revoked. ƬheStrikeΣagle sorties 15:15, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 15:27, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Glc72, I don't necessarily think military power alone defines a Great Power. Neither Germany or Japan use their militaries to exert influence around the world and China can only exert military power in its own region, yet these three nations are strongly considered Great Powers. The academic community tend to cite both hard and soft power when it comes to power in international relations and currently the overwhelming opinion of political scientists and historians who have published material on this subject do not consider Italy as a Great Power and agree that its influence post WW2 is that of a Middle Power. For the record StrikeEagle I agree, I don't think comparative military size directly translates into military power - For example, while India's, China's and Russia's armed forces are significantly larger than those of Britain or France, it is Britain and France who maintain globally deployable armed forces (E.g Britain maintains the capacity to deploy 30,000 troops anywhere in the world at short notice on a peacetime budget, while Russia in the 2008 South Ossetia War struggled to deploy just over 10,000 troops into a country it shares a land border with!!!). Glc72, I suggest you take peoples advice and try and gain a consensus when you have provided adequate academic citations supporting Italy as a Great Power. Merely quoting statistics and giving your own personal opinions will get you nowhere.Antiochus the Great (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment :- See, I agree about India, in fact I had added India into "Great Power" template here, but I got to know that these subjects needs consensus. India is the great power. There are many reasons, but I would note some right here:-

Regarded as Great Power for over 40 years. Nuclear weapon, Aircraft Carriers, 3rd largest populated military, etc. 3rd Largest GDP PPP, being 4.7 Trillion, Others like USA we know that they got high debt, and China is already alleged so many times to have faked it's GDP[1], [2], India has no such crisis, nor it's alleged with such allegations. Recently, the Cyclone handling of India was impressive too.

There would be many more reasons, but really, I don't find much about Italy. OccultZone (talk) 03:22, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] 151.40.64.80 (talk) 08:41, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Considering, Germany is regarded as great power, while Italy has lower amount of crisis than Germany has, i am sure Italy can be considered as a great power. How many reliable sources you have got to push this statement? Write them down here. OccultZone (talk) 05:05, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 07:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 07:58, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glc72 (talkcontribs) 08:45, 17 October 2013 (UTC)


[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 08:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I have a horribly busy academic schedule and I'm too lazy to study the whole essays you have written above. So I'll keep it short. Taking a mike and shouting won't help you a bit in this issue. Believe me. Personal attacks on other users will take you no where. And Yes, we also ignore people when we feel they have not been making too much sense..won't we Antiochus the Great? ƬheStrikeΣagle sorties 16:06, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Like you Strike Eagle I too am bogged down with University and have little time for this discussion. Enjoy your studies!! Antiochus the Great (talk) 16:20, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Italy is what Italy is, say what you will. A regional power to be kind, she lacked influence to alone deal with conflicts on her doorstep with either the Yugoslavian disintegration or the Libyan uprising. It must be frustrating not accepting one's limitations. Doyna Yar (talk) 04:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] Glc72 (talk) 11:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake, Italy is not a great power. Live with it or live in your fantasy, but either way stop ranting and wasting electrons on Wikipedia talk pages! 81.135.128.178 (talk) 11:57, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Ah, I see he's actually been banned from Wikipedia - there shall be peace! (For now, until another loony turns up on these pages, as they always do...) 81.135.128.178 (talk) 12:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Italy has 2 aircraft carriers, numerous LHDs and LPDs, AWACS, aerial refueling aircraft, etc. (power projection toys which Germany doesn't have.) It is a part of both the F-35 JSF consortium and the Eurofighter consortium. It produces the world's most prestigious cars like Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Pagani, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, etc. FIAT has taken over the Chrysler Group, including Jeep. Italy's fashion designers such as Armani, Versace, Gucci, Prada, Valentino, Trussardi, Cavalli, Paciotti, Bulgari, Dolce & Gabbana, MaxMara, etc. are the world's top brands. 78.181.152.137 (talk) 19:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

How the amount of famous brands can affect the status of Italy as a great power? Hyundai is a famous South Korean car manufacturer, which sells vehicles all around the world and it doesn't make South Korea a great power. You're totally missing the point. Besides, Italy is characterized by significant presence of organized crime (Sicilian Mafia, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, Santa Corona Unita) which gather thousands of people. It lacks a stable government and changes it frequently. Ernio48 (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] 151.40.15.156 (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Sincerely, nobody gives a fuck until you provide a good number of academic citations to support your claim. Just your personal opinion isn't valid. I hope you get the point and start searching for academic citations. Thanks, ƬheStrikeΣagle 15:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

[Redacted sock comments] 151.40.15.156 (talk) 15:19, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. There are five great powers, with Germany and Japan as the two other "Great Powers-ish". India is on the cusp of being a great power. Italy is clearly below all 8 of those nations in international power, in a band of middle power countries that is quite numerous (equivalents are Brazil, Mexico, S Korea, Turkey, etc etc). In any case, Wikipedia is based on academic references. We can discuss this for ever but it matters not. I'm merely outlining why you won't find any reliable sources out there that state Italy is a great power in the present day (though it was only just a great power in the late 19th/early 20th centuries). Regarding the G4 - the real reason they aren't able to become permanent members of the UN security council is absolutely nothing to do with Italy or San Marino, but because it would only happen as part of wider reforms of the UN, which are not happening because of disagreement not only amongst the great powers but also across the world more generally. Cheerio. Argovian (talk) 16:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


[Redacted sock comments] 151.40.127.211 (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


  • *And as the IP here is a block-evading long-term disruptive editor on this topic, page protected. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:56, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Redacted all of them now. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 07:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

India[edit]

This RfC asks two questions.

Q: Is India a great power?
A: The consensus is yes, India's a great power.

Q: Should it be included in the section "Aftermath of the Cold War"?
A: This question was completely ignored by all participants in the RfC, so there's no basis for answering it in the close.

The outcome is that the article should remain unchanged. I hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 23:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

is India referred to as a great power? and should it be included in the section "Aftermath of the Cold War" thought it already is icluding in the next section below "Emerging powers" 108.60.134.235 (talk) 19:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

it is more appropriate that is should olny be mentioned in the section "emerging powers" because even if one or a few sources mentioned india as a great power most other sources do not and instead mean that india is a RISING power or WANTING great power but not a great power 108.60.134.235 (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment: India is increasingly gaining recognition as being a great power, and the article lists two reliable academic publications which conclude that India is a great power. I noticed on the 26th of June that an IP tried to remove mention of India as a great power from the article. Are you perchance the same person? It would be wrong to remove India from the article because there are very reliable sources supporting it. Antiochus the Great (talk) 20:39, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Keep--the statement: "many sources recognize India as a great power" is correct. Markewilliams (talk) 00:24, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
India a great power?the inclusion of that statment and the wording makes in seem that india is a great power, how can india be a great power? what about countries like brazil and italy not included as great powers althought they a larger GDP (nominal) 108.60.134.238 (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
India is a great power? Hence, lacking in *global* influence? India *has* increased naval presence, but not significantly. Hence, India, lacking significant other considerations, is *not* a Great Power. Potentially so, but not currently. *Regional* power, yes, not *global*, which *is* what a *great power* is.76.98.54.238 (talk) 06:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
More influence on information technology sector than any other country. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 06:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree that India should be kept as a great power in the article per Markewilliams, but I would argue that the US has more influence in IT than India...Cogito-Ergo-Sum (14) (talk) 14:47, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep a qualified, sourced statement that some sources have recognized India as a great power. While it's true that most do not, and that this is minority point of view, it's still a noteworthy enough one to include (i.e., it's not a fringe idea like calling Madagascar a great power).  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


German Confederation or Prussia?[edit]

An anon. IP user keeps changing Prussia to the German Confederation for the 1815 column in the template.

Template:List of Great powers by date

This I feel is wrong. The Confederation was not a sovereign state. Prussia continued to be a sovereign and great power even with its formation. And if Austria is included in 1815 then Prussia should too.

Further, the 1815 column specifically refers to the great powers as recognised at the Congress of Vienna. The Confederation was formed after the Congress.

Thoughts? Argovian (talk) 12:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

You are right and have good understanding of this template's purpose.
German Confederation was a loose entity comprising dozens of small German states, and thus it cannot be considered a state in the same meaning as are the other listed entities, e.g. France or UK. Prussia and Austria were the two biggest states of the Confederation, which fought wars against each other and gained allies in nothern and southern part of the German Confederation, respectively. Well, it was just a Holy Roman Empire v.2 - absolutely not a STATE/COUNTRY.
Ernio48 (talk) 00:28, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the agreement. Could I ask that those who are "watching" the Great power article also put this template onto their watchlist if they haven't already done so. Argovian (talk) 09:58, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

How credible is this source?[edit]

Joshua Baron is the source cited for a major section of this article. How credible is he? Is he an academic? Is he a reputable IR scholar? I'm inclined to say not. Therefore, we should find other sources to back up his claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.75.63.254 (talk) 21:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Joshua Baron is a professional in his field, so I guess he is fairly credible? Also, his publication is well within the guidelines of WP:V and WP:RS. I am not aware of any policy which strictly states a small section of an article cannot be single sourced. Indeed sometimes, there may only be one or two reliable publications available which tackle a specific subject, therefore we may have to rely on a single source from time to time. That being said, by all means, if you or anyone else dig up some new credible sources, then add them. It would be most welcome. Antiochus the Great (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2014 (UTC)