Talk:Greco-Italian War

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated B-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Greece (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Albania (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon Greco-Italian War is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Italy (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

This article has an assessment summary page.

An Italian war crime and boorish racism[edit]

On August 15, 1940 -more than two months before the Italian attack to Greece (Oct. 28, 1940)- the Italian submarine "Delfino" (Cap. Aicardi)sunk the coastal Greek cruiser "Helli" in front of the Tinos island during a Greek religious ceremony. Just to provoke Greece! The true reason of the Italian defeat in November 1940 was boorish racism: Italy considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" and a few of Italian divisions were "enough to defeat it". Badoglio said: "Those Greeks`ll get the lesson what they deserve!"

Boorish racism is a term excessive and out of reality. To have considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" is nationalism, not racism.--Brunodam 06:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I think "inferior nation" is definitely racism, not nationalism. 16:22, 08 26 2012 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.54.236.151 (talk)
"a little, poor, inferior Nation" phrase can be divided into two parts. "a little, poor Nation" isn't racism imho. On the other part, "inferior nation" is not nationalism, it is definitely racism. ĶŞĶ-ŴĀŘ (talk) 23:27, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
And "racism" is definitely not an encyclopedic let alone scientific term. --41.150.55.114 (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

And you Greeks aren't racist??? Mussolini did not invade Greece for racist reasons. He invaded Greece for strategic reasons. Invading a country isn't nice and is wrong, but try to separate the hyperbolic rhetoric from cold, calculating reasoning. AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Stalemate[edit]

It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo

Well, up to the final surrender to the Axis, on April 1941, the Greeks were certainly winning over the Italians. Even after the surrender to the Germans, on April 20-21, the Italian attacks on the Greek front were beaten back. The situation is correctly summed up as a Greek tactical victory, but a strategic stalemate. Italy was already deploying 35 divisions against 16 Greek ones in Albania by the end of March, and still unable to make headway. How many more divisions did they have to send? The Italians also failed in carrying out what you say, and what the Greek High Command feared - attacks on Greek islands, especially the Ionian islands or Crete. For whatever reason, they did not carry these operations out in November 1940, when they had the forces available for it, and it is doubtful they would attempt it later, with their surface fleet unable to support them after Cape MAtapan and the RN's Taranto raid. The islands they "conquered" they did so only after the Germans had already overrun the Greek mainland. As for what would have happened without intervention, it's anyone's guess, but it belongs to the realm of alternate history, not in Wikipedia. Regards, Cplakidas 12:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
If you read what was written here on the later stages of the war, no one was winng the war. Certainly, the Greeks had insurged into Albania, but lacked the strength to move foreward by any means. Also, the Italians found themselves dug in not able to attack the Greeks, but not in danger of losing any more territory to the Greeks either. This situation is remenescent of World War I France, where the Germans were dug in in French held territory, while the French were dug in as well. Neither side was able to successfully break the others lines at that point. That is a stalemate. Therefore, the Italian Campaign in Greece would also be a stalemate. Also, when you consider that the Germans were able to just walk into Greece and face no opposition, the Axis campagin in Greece was a great success. With the whole Greek Army tied up on the Albanian border, the Germans, and other allies, face to resistance. I am making no argument about the war itself, I am merely stating that from a historical point of view, it's true that it was a stalemate. If it were a "tatical Greek victory" Greece would have beaten the Italians, not stalemated them, as well as having their army free to fight invading Germans and Bulgarians. With both sides dug in, neither attacking the other successfully, then it is a stalemate situation, no matter which nation has more territory from the other. As for supposition, your right, it is not meant for wikipedia, I only offered it as my personal oppinion. - Izzo
You are quite right in what you are saying. However, the campaign was certainly a tactical victory for the Greeks, for the simple reason that they repulsed the Italian invasion, staged a successful counterattack, and moved the battle into Italian "home territory" (if that can be said of Albania), remaining unbeaten by the Italians until final surrender to the Germans. The fact that they ultimately lacked the strength to achieve a decisive outcome does not mean that it was not a victory. If on April 6, instead of a German invasion, an agreement had been brokered (most likely of return to "status quo ante"), the war would have gone down as a definite Greek victory. I am however adding the "strategic stalemate" to the article's infobox, to correctly reflect the historical outcome. BTW, it would be nice if we had more of the Italian perspective in the article. If you can help, please do so. Regards, Cplakidas 12:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Both titles (Tactical victory, stalemate) correctly sum up the situation of this war. I believe it was unique because of the fact it had no real winner. I'll try to put more perspective from Italian people into to the article. Thanks for your help on the issue. Best wishes. - Izzo

Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo

I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo

It was a stalemate for sure, but with time, there is little doubt the Italian Army would have defeated the Greeks. It wasn't even a tactical win for the Greeks, because ultimately, the Greeks were defeated by both Italy and Germany and Bulgaria. The Axis powers defeated Greece and then divided it up like a chicken. The British were hopeless. In fact one could say that rather than an Italian "fiasco" in Greece, it was really a British "fiasco" instead. The Brits could retreat out of Greece fast enough!AnnalesSchool (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Italian casualties[edit]

Noclador, please stop removing sourced facts. Both Irving and Cervi quote Mussolini.

Irving:

"Mussolini was livid. Italy, blustered the Duce, had been fighting with 500,000 men and lost 63,000 dead in her six months of war with Greece."

Cervi:

"Five hundred thousand men have been engaged, and 63000 casualties have been suffered." 62.103.147.54 (talk) 10:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Cervi speaks of casualties - which are dead, wounded & missing - as said on your talkpage Cervi gives the follwoing figures in his book as overall campaign losses: "Secondo i dati ufficiali del Ministero della difesa la campagna di Grecia è costata all'Italia 13.755 morti, 50.874 feriti, 12.368 congelati, 25.067 dispersi, 52.108 ricoverati in luoghi di cura" ("According to the official numbers of the Ministry of Defense Italy has lost in the Greek campaign: 13,755 dead, 50,874 wounded, 12,368 frostbitten, 25,067 missing and 52,108 wounded and returned to duty.") As you see, Irving uses the number from Cervis book, but Irving declares all casualties to be dead, which is wrong as Cervi by casualties (in Italian "perdite") means wounded (feriti) and the dead (morti). Therefore Irvings number is still wrong and Cervis English book has a wrong translation of the Italian word perdite (correct translation would be losses). --noclador (talk) 10:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

~Why all notes about Italian losses came from Montanari or Rochat,the ones about Greeks is a reference about a missknown author -Rodogno?- Greeks losed 10'000 POW,13,500 KIA,1'200 MIA and 10'000 neutralized by frostbite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.237.135 (talk) 20:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Greek victory?[edit]

How this could be a greek victory? The italians just won because of the german intervention, but this doesn't matter in the resulted outcome. Moagim (talk) 23:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, repelling an invasion on your own territory and driving into the enemy's territory counts as a victory to most people. Of course ultimately the German intervention changed things, but in the purely Greek-Italian show, there was a clear winner. We used to have "Greek tactical victory" there to differentiated with the strategic stalemate, but it got changed by someone along the way. I'll restore it. Constantine 23:54, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
but the war didn't end with the german intervention, it continues until the eventually greek surrender. I don't know why the greek nationalism should feel bad about that. Moagim (talk) 00:01, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
That is because the war on the Albanian front became a sideshow the moment the Germans intervened, and because the Greek withdrawal from Albania was due to the German advance, not to Italian offensive action. I remind you that the original surrender protocol was to the Germans and the Germans alone, and was signed at a time when Italian troops had still to re-cross the Greco-Albanian frontier. The Greco-Italian War was a separate campaign, that effectively ended on 6 April, when the Germans invaded, which is also why we have two different articles. Greece fought two wars, against the Italians and against the Germans. It certainly won the first one on the tactical level, despite the ensuing stalemate in Albania, and lost the second one. If you want to call that nationalism, well, that's your opinion... Constantine 08:10, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Moagim, it actually was an Italian victory. The Italians went on to occupy most of the country. And Greece did formally surrender to the Italians. The bulk of the Greek army was worn down fighting the Italians, which allowed the German to come in almost unopposed because the Greeks had exhausted themselves. Silly Greeks. They would have been far better off surrendering to the Italians sooner than allow the Germans in, because the Germans were brutal masters who bankrupted and starved the entire country. Under Italian occupation instead, they would have been far better treated, which they were in the zones controlled by the Italians. AnnalesSchool (talk) 08:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you serious? Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of Italian occupation in Greece or are you speaking off your head and repeating the age-old "good Italian" trope that has been discredited everywhere but in Italy itself? Let me assure you that the Italian army could be brutal enough when it wanted to, as evidenced in cases like the Domenikon Massacre or the mass reprisal executions, especially in places like the Larissa concentration camp. The fact that this is a neglected topic in international historiography doesn't mean it didn't happen. Next time you come to Greece, go to any village square in Thessaly or Central Greece to see the names of the people executed in reprisals by the "friendly Italians". Yes, they were in general far less capable and disciplined than the Germans, and also more relaxed in attitudes top to bottom, which meant that the rank and file mostly wanted to get over the war in one piece and their generals simply liked to have a good time in the cities, so they did not go out of their way to fight guerrillas in sweeping operations with mass reprisals like the Germans did. But then the Italians did not face the huge rise of the Greek guerrilla movement, which occurred after mid-1943 in part precisely because the Italian army in Greece disintegrated and their weapons and ammunition were looted by the guerrillas. From there to suggest that the Greeks would have been "better off" to have simply surrendered is pure nonsense, aside from being offensive. Hell yes, let's have Mussolini strutting around in Athens, and carving up our country right and left, just in order to avoid the Germans. You are obviously a model of NPOV behaviour. Constantine 09:10, 10 May 2014 (UTC)


Constantine, it is a matter of record that the Italians massacred far less Greeks, than did the more "capable and disciplined" Germans. Certainly the Greek Jewish population was better off. Sounds like you actually admire the Germans a lot more because they were more brutal and efficient. No one likes to be taken over, but if I had a choice (and many Greeks I know have agreed), the lesser of the two evils would have been an Italian occupation. Certainly the Italian military tradition was more humane and honorable than the German one.AnnalesSchool (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I do apologize Constantine for any unintentional remark. But I really do believe the Greeks under the Italian zone of occupation were better off. Certainly if I were Jewish, I'd now which zone I would like my family to be in. But tell me, why were the Bulgarians so brutal towards the Greeks?AnnalesSchool (talk) 10:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Fascist Italy collapsed in Sep. 1943, so it wouldn't make a serious difference. Off course the concept that Greece souhld have accepted Italian occupation immidiattely is an extreme point and is completely rejected by serious historians.Alexikoua (talk) 11:37, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
This "Sounds like you actually admire the Germans a lot more because they were more brutal and efficient" is a completely unacceptable remark, and it is not made better by apologizing for any unintentional remark right after, because you clearly know and mean full well what you are writing. So let's not play silly buggers: effectively stating that it was somehow the Greeks' fault that they suffered because they did not surrender right away to the lesser evil is despicable. No sir, it would not have been "better" to have surrendered to Italy, it would have been better if Italy had left Greece, and Albania, and Yugoslavia, and Ethiopia, and Libya in peace. Or was it "humane" when the Italian military gassed the Ethiopians, or gathered the population of Cyrenaica behind barbed wire? The "good Italian" is a convenient and widespread myth, even among Greeks, but that doesn't make it true as such. My grandparents who lived through the war told me stories about good Italians and about good Germans too, you know... And both groups were good people, right until they had to execute civilians for reprisals or requisition the livestock of an entire village, evacuate the population and burn it down... Constantine 13:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
And just now I noticed this little nugget. Wow, just... wow... Constantine 13:55, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Eureka!!!! You found it. Well done.AnnalesSchool (talk) 15:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Nasty personal attacks followed by sarcasm. Can you get any closer to trolling? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 18:11, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Take it easy. The war was nasty for everyone, including Italians and Germans. Everyone suffered, not just the Greeks. My observation was merely ironic that while the Greeks put so much effort into preventing the Italians from invading, they forgot about the Germans! It's like bolting the front door and forgetting to lock the back. As I said, and I continue to maintain: the Italians were not as brutal as the Germans. This is a fact. You Greeks were successful in stopping one enemy, but you forgot the other, who was much worse. The Germans really stripped your country. The Italians would not have to that extent.AnnalesSchool (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
From my own research, the Italian invasion army on the Albanian front actually didn't need or want the Germans in Greece anyway. In fact, Mussolini never invited them into Greece. The Germans invited themselves it appears, taking the spoils and easy victory, after the hard work done by the Italians to wear down the Greek army.AnnalesSchool (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Copyright concern[edit]

This article might have problems relating to copyright. Part of this book http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Hrigci1NEusC&pg=RA1-PT250&dq=a+junior+partner,+was+meant+to+wrest+back+the&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w00XUsDfG4eJkwXH1oGYBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=a%20junior%20partner%2C%20was%20meant%20to%20wrest%20back%20the&f=false] is duplicated exactly in this article in the Peace section. eg. this article says "a junior partner, was meant to wrest back the pride of independent action. Instead, it dragged Italy far deeper into humiliating subservience to Hitler’s Germany. The fact that Hitler, as a sop to Mussolini’s prestige, allowed the Italians to be a party to the Greek surrender, on 23 April 1941, that German arms had forced, could not hide the scale of Italy’s degradation" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.113.69.150 (talk) 12:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually the Italians didn't need the Germans at all, and didn't want them. The Italians were on the verge of defeating the Greek army anyway. Mussolini never asked the Germans to intervene in Greece. They just invited themselves.AnnalesSchool (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2014 (UTC)


Well spotted. I'm wasting a day dealing with copyvio by a sock farm Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Turgeis. This was by one of them. Deleted Dougweller (talk) 19:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Turgeis' sock Moagim has also inserted material copypasted from Kershaw 2007. More reverts are necessary. --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:26, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Copy-editing[edit]

I have begun to edit this article. This includes fixing punctuation and grammatical errors. Here is a sandbox link with the proposed amendments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sue91/sandbox/greco. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sue91 (talkcontribs) 22:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)


MUSSO'S KIDNEYS[edit]

Some of the page is oddly written. I just want to point to the following passage: "I said that we would crush the Negus' kidneys. Now, with the same, absolute certainty, I repeat, absolute, I tell you that we will crush Greece's kidneys." Mussolini's speech in Palazzo Venezia, 18 November 1940[31][32] The reader probably wonders why Mussolini went on about kidneys like this. Well the answer is he didn't: he didn't threaten to break anyone's kidneys. He threatened to break Greece's back. If he had wanted to say he was going to break Greece's kidneys he would have said "spezzare i reni", using the masculine plurale of "rene". Instead he said "spezzare le reni", using the feminine plurale ("le reni"), which simply means the small of the back or lumbar region. In short he just said he wanted to break Greece's back. Musso often talked bollocks, but he wasn't fixated on Greece's kidneys. If you doubt my word, check with the Accademia della Crusca: http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/it/lingua-italiana/consulenza-linguistica/domande-risposte/r-due-plurali I know this is pedantry, but it makes the man sound even more foolish than he undoubtedly was. I will correct the phrase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo (talkcontribs) 17:00, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Image Caption[edit]

In the section titled, "Stages of campaign", there is an image of a soldier with a mule (?) but the caption describes a picture of a boy and a general. 198.151.201.9 (talk) 19:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that was obviously someone's idea of a joke, equating an Italian general with a mule. A timeless classic, no doubt... Constantine 09:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Too much editorializing and POV.[edit]

The "Consequences" section really needs a good clean-up. Too long winded, too much editorializing, POV, off topic, incoherent, lack of citations, cherry picking, misleading and undue weight. I propose we delete it and start again. It could be beyond repair.

The "Aftermath" could do with a bit more attention too.AnnalesSchool (talk) 11:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I still think this article relies far too much on editorializing, dubious and gratuitous citations, and a heavy bias against the Italians. It seems like an article that is partisan towards the Greek POV. The inclusion of Hitler's rant against the Italians for causing Germany to lose the war (which is by the way, erroneous), seems gratuitous to me. What has it got to do with the Italo-Greek war. The source for it, the Bormann papers, are unreliable sources, and discredited in the eyes of historians.AnnalesSchool (talk) 17:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)==Untitled== I have moved Miskin's evidence from Keitel to the "Military insights from the war section", which is more appropriate for a discussion of the effects of the war than the "Results" section --Mike Young 22:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(aniv of march on Roma)started the campaign in the begining of winter

Did the invasion fall on this date as a coincidence, or did Mussolini purposely pick this day to launch the war?K... 09:08, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

An Italian war crime and boorish racism[edit]

On August 15, 1940 -more than two months before the Italian attack to Greece (Oct. 28, 1940)- the Italian submarine "Delfino" (Cap. Aicardi)sunk the coastal Greek cruiser "Helli" in front of the Tinos island during a Greek religious ceremony. Just to provoke Greece! The true reason of the Italian defeat in November 1940 was boorish racism: Italy considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" and a few of Italian divisions were "enough to defeat it". Badoglio said: "Those Greeks`ll get the lesson what they deserve!"

Boorish racism is a term excessive and out of reality. To have considered Greece "a little, poor, inferior Nation" is nationalism, not racism.--Brunodam 06:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I think "inferior nation" is definitely racism, not nationalism. 16:22, 08 26 2012 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.54.236.151 (talk)
"a little, poor, inferior Nation" phrase can be divided into two parts. "a little, poor Nation" isn't racism imho. On the other part, "inferior nation" is not nationalism, it is definitely racism. ĶŞĶ-ŴĀŘ (talk) 23:27, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
And "racism" is definitely not an encyclopedic let alone scientific term. --41.150.55.114 (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

And you Greeks aren't racist??? Mussolini did not invade Greece for racist reasons. He invaded Greece for strategic reasons. Invading a country isn't nice and is wrong, but try to separate the hyperbolic rhetoric from cold, calculating reasoning. AnnalesSchool (talk) 20:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Stalemate[edit]

It states several times that just prior to the German invasion, both sides lacked the strength to attack one and other, which resulted in a stalemate. It also states that the entire Greek army was sent to face the Italians, leaving all other borders stripped. It stands to reason then that this was a stalemate, not a victory by either side. Also, had the war continued without the intervention by the Germans or the Allies, Italy could have used it's full strength against Greece, and conquered it from the South upward, as it was left basically defenseless. This is attested to by the rapid conquest of Greek held islands that Italy conquered. They had no defenses, because all of the defenses were on the Albanian front. It is resonable to assume that this could and would have been case with most of mainland Greece as well. - Izzo

Well, up to the final surrender to the Axis, on April 1941, the Greeks were certainly winning over the Italians. Even after the surrender to the Germans, on April 20-21, the Italian attacks on the Greek front were beaten back. The situation is correctly summed up as a Greek tactical victory, but a strategic stalemate. Italy was already deploying 35 divisions against 16 Greek ones in Albania by the end of March, and still unable to make headway. How many more divisions did they have to send? The Italians also failed in carrying out what you say, and what the Greek High Command feared - attacks on Greek islands, especially the Ionian islands or Crete. For whatever reason, they did not carry these operations out in November 1940, when they had the forces available for it, and it is doubtful they would attempt it later, with their surface fleet unable to support them after Cape MAtapan and the RN's Taranto raid. The islands they "conquered" they did so only after the Germans had already overrun the Greek mainland. As for what would have happened without intervention, it's anyone's guess, but it belongs to the realm of alternate history, not in Wikipedia. Regards, Cplakidas 12:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
If you read what was written here on the later stages of the war, no one was winng the war. Certainly, the Greeks had insurged into Albania, but lacked the strength to move foreward by any means. Also, the Italians found themselves dug in not able to attack the Greeks, but not in danger of losing any more territory to the Greeks either. This situation is remenescent of World War I France, where the Germans were dug in in French held territory, while the French were dug in as well. Neither side was able to successfully break the others lines at that point. That is a stalemate. Therefore, the Italian Campaign in Greece would also be a stalemate. Also, when you consider that the Germans were able to just walk into Greece and face no opposition, the Axis campagin in Greece was a great success. With the whole Greek Army tied up on the Albanian border, the Germans, and other allies, face to resistance. I am making no argument about the war itself, I am merely stating that from a historical point of view, it's true that it was a stalemate. If it were a "tatical Greek victory" Greece would have beaten the Italians, not stalemated them, as well as having their army free to fight invading Germans and Bulgarians. With both sides dug in, neither attacking the other successfully, then it is a stalemate situation, no matter which nation has more territory from the other. As for supposition, your right, it is not meant for wikipedia, I only offered it as my personal oppinion. - Izzo
You are quite right in what you are saying. However, the campaign was certainly a tactical victory for the Greeks, for the simple reason that they repulsed the Italian invasion, staged a successful counterattack, and moved the battle into Italian "home territory" (if that can be said of Albania), remaining unbeaten by the Italians until final surrender to the Germans. The fact that they ultimately lacked the strength to achieve a decisive outcome does not mean that it was not a victory. If on April 6, instead of a German invasion, an agreement had been brokered (most likely of return to "status quo ante"), the war would have gone down as a definite Greek victory. I am however adding the "strategic stalemate" to the article's infobox, to correctly reflect the historical outcome. BTW, it would be nice if we had more of the Italian perspective in the article. If you can help, please do so. Regards, Cplakidas 12:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Both titles (Tactical victory, stalemate) correctly sum up the situation of this war. I believe it was unique because of the fact it had no real winner. I'll try to put more perspective from Italian people into to the article. Thanks for your help on the issue. Best wishes. - Izzo

Someone has reverted the edits once again, so I will have to reset them. - Izzo

I may nominate this page for protection, as people keep vandalizing the "result" section, and refuse to join the debate here or stop the reversions. I am not about to get into an edit war, so if this continues I'll request protection for this page and a ban for the reverter. - Izzo

It was a stalemate for sure, but with time, there is little doubt the Italian Army would have defeated the Greeks. It wasn't even a tactical win for the Greeks, because ultimately, the Greeks were defeated by both Italy and Germany and Bulgaria. The Axis powers defeated Greece and then divided it up like a chicken. The British were hopeless. In fact one could say that rather than an Italian "fiasco" in Greece, it was really a British "fiasco" instead. The Brits could retreat out of Greece fast enough!AnnalesSchool (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Italian casualties[edit]

Noclador, please stop removing sourced facts. Both Irving and Cervi quote Mussolini.

Irving:

"Mussolini was livid. Italy, blustered the Duce, had been fighting with 500,000 men and lost 63,000 dead in her six months of war with Greece."

Cervi:

"Five hundred thousand men have been engaged, and 63000 casualties have been suffered." 62.103.147.54 (talk) 10:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Cervi speaks of casualties - which are dead, wounded & missing - as said on your talkpage Cervi gives the follwoing figures in his book as overall campaign losses: "Secondo i dati ufficiali del Ministero della difesa la campagna di Grecia è costata all'Italia 13.755 morti, 50.874 feriti, 12.368 congelati, 25.067 dispersi, 52.108 ricoverati in luoghi di cura" ("According to the official numbers of the Ministry of Defense Italy has lost in the Greek campaign: 13,755 dead, 50,874 wounded, 12,368 frostbitten, 25,067 missing and 52,108 wounded and returned to duty.") As you see, Irving uses the number from Cervis book, but Irving declares all casualties to be dead, which is wrong as Cervi by casualties (in Italian "perdite") means wounded (feriti) and the dead (morti). Therefore Irvings number is still wrong and Cervis English book has a wrong translation of the Italian word perdite (correct translation would be losses). --noclador (talk) 10:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

~Why all notes about Italian losses came from Montanari or Rochat,the ones about Greeks is a reference about a missknown author -Rodogno?- Greeks losed 10'000 POW,13,500 KIA,1'200 MIA and 10'000 neutralized by frostbite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.33.237.135 (talk) 20:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)