Talk:Greek Orthodox Church
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Albanian Church 
Albanian Church is Autocephalous and recognized as such, so how is it 'Greek'? Please read this if you have any questions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephaly —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 21:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC) Fixed by removing completely the paragraph. It was completely POV-ish. The Albanian autocephalous church conducts mass in Greek language for the Greek minority in Albania, that doesn't make it a Greek Orthodox Church. The two churches are separate. Besides none of the sources endorses that. It's already in the autocephalous church in Albania's article that the church conducts its mass in Greek, so there is no need to make impertinent claims here, saying that the Church of Albania is Greek Orthodox, because it just isn't. The Church of Albania has been autocephalous since 1922.--Gollomboc (talk) 18:51, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The article includes the "Orthodox Church of Antioch" among churches that use the Greek liturgy. I'm pretty sure that the local Antiochian Orthodox Church uses Syrian rather than Greek... aside from when they use English of course. ("local" meaning in the U.S.) Wesley 17:31 30 May 2003 (UTC)
- The Antiochian Orthodox Church's official liturgical language is Greek, however it is almost never used in actual services. Most services are conducted in the local language or in Syrian Arabic, since many Antiochian Orthodox Christians are recent immigrants. The status of Greek is similar to that of Latin in the post-Vatican II Catholic Church. The Antiochian Church is called Greek Orthodox in Syria and Lebanon. - Efghij 03:18 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
dab style 
I just removed a bunch of wikilinks and piping per MoS:DP. I left way more text than is usually proper on a dab page. Should there be a page explaining the family tree (as it were) and relationships between all these churches? That wouldn't be a dab page and would then free up this page to simply allow for disambiguating links to the "Greek Orthodox Church". Tedernst | Talk 17:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
a note 
People who try to disambiguate pages that link here tend to do various mistakes. Please be more careful when you try to do it, or ask someone who knows more about it. Thanks. talk to +MATIA 07:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
All orthodox churches? 
What about Ethiopian Church? Isn't that not made from Greek Church? Tourskin 01:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Albanian Orthodox Church 
Can someone please help?
I can't figure out how to edit the box at the bottom, but I think the Albanian Orthodox Church (aka Church of Albania) shouldn't be there. It includes ethnic Greeks but also alot of ethnic Albanians, and back when Abp ANASTASIOS first got there in the '90s, some non-Orthodox Albanians thought he was pro-Greek and tried to kill him and other things. (There's been ethnic conflict, Greek ["Epirot"] separatism, etc., there.) Including the AOC under "Greek Orthodox Church" where "Greek" means "Hellenic" as here (vs. Rum / Romaios / Roman / Chalcedonian), thus, is not only misleading, but potentially dangerous to people on the ground there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 05:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Fixed It should not be here at all. The Church of Albania has been Autocephalous since 1922 and recognized in 1937 thereby it is NOT part of the Greek Orthodox Church.sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 05:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think that there is kinda confusion here. As it is stated in the opening paragraph, "Greek Orthodox Church" is a term that includes the churches which share a Greek tradition, whose liturgy is (also) conducted in Greek and - as far as I know - the clergy is of Greek decent. Note that it's just a cultural term, completely different from the Church of Greece, and it doesn't imply any kind of subsumption under the Greek Church. - Sthenel (talk) 23:08, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your quick response. No confusion on my side. The definition says that it's a Body of several churches... sharing a common cultural tradition, and whose liturgy is traditionally conducted in Koine Greek, the original language of the New Testament. Now I'll dispute each one of what the Church of Greece and Church of Albania are claimed to share.
- The cultural tradition of the Church of Albania is that of a fierce fight for autocephaly from Costantinople. That's what the history of the Church of Albania says: look at the article. You may say that there is a similarity in the lithurgy, but not culturally. Culture defines lots of other things, language included.
- Let's talk about language. In the Church of Albania mass is conducted in the Albanian language and not in Koine Greek. In the Greek minority areas Koine Greek is not used either, rather modern Greek is used.
- Sources do not support any of the claims of that paragraph, or at least the first two are not indicating any page and the third is just demential, because it's from 1956, when the clergy was supposed to be of Albanian citizenship according to the Statute of the KOASH of 1954.
- Only Ioannulatos is a Greek citizen, no one else. He was invited to guide the church because in 1991 there were no biships left in Albania, or they were in very poor health condition. To say that the Church of Albania is similar culturally to the Church of Greece because of him is WP:SYNTH. You may verify all my claims in the history of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania.
As a result, I really propose that the paragraph be deleted at least until the sources are reviewed, because they are not supporting the paragraph. That paragraph makes the article unstable and prone to arguments. Thank you again! --Let's talk 12:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your points. These are my comments: 1. Autocephaly doesn't abolish any cultural relationship. 2. I don't know if the liturgy is conducted in modern Greek - it looks very weird to me, actually I cannot imagine the liturgy in modern Greek - but even if you are right, Koine Greek implies a Greek Orthodox culture, while modern Greek doesn't? 3. Throughout history, the Orthodox faith in Albania faced several problems and the Albanian Orthodox Church was highly affected by the (Greek Orthodox) Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Church of Greece in order to be established. 4. The fact that the official website of the Albanian Church is also translated in Greek (along with Albanian and English) looks like an argument to me, implying a Greek Orthodox heritage coming - to some extend - from the ethnic Greek population living in the country, which historically constitutes a large part of the entire Orthodox population in Albania (that came under the Patriarchate of Constantinople before autocephaly was declared), maintained and shaped the Orthodox faith in previous centuries, when the vast majority of Albanians were Muslims. Greek Orthodox Churches around the world are closely related to regions with people of Greek descent or Greek Orthodox heritage. 5. I think that it's exactly this Greek Orthodox heritage of the Albanian Orthodox Church that has been confronted suspiciously by some Albanians. 6. Greek clergy isn't such a substantial feature to determine the Greek Orthodox character of a Church, but it's a common fact that in Greek Orthodox Churches the clergy was ethnically Greek at least in some parts of history. Btw, before the Albanian Church had declared its autocephaly, some of its leaders were Greek but all of them were definitely of Byzantine Greek Orthodox heritage (which was different from the Slavic Orthodox heritage for example). 7. I found one of the sources and I fixed the reference. 8. I'm sorry but I'm not a specialist in religion-related issues so I'm trying to explain it in a reasonable way. - Sthenel (talk) 00:45, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
- We agree that the Albanian Orthodox Church is in full communion with the Greek Orthodox Church, and there is cultural relationship, but this is not enough to redefine the concept of "autocephaly" which is connected to a political choice of being under a certain country. Mesfushor (talk) 00:04, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- No one is trying to redefine anything. Autocephaly just means that it is self-governing, i.e. it appoints its own bishops and clergymen, instead of them being appointed by the Ecumenical Patriarchate (probably you didn't know that). One source is good enough for what the article says, but I'm sure we could add many more if you'd like. Athenean (talk) 09:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- Since my source (Barbara Larkin - International Religious Freedom 2000, p242), which clearly says The Albanian Orthodox Church split from the Greek Orthodox Church early in the century and adherents strongly identify with the Autocephalous National Church as distinct from the Greek Church.) contradicts Roudometof, then, yes, I would like to see other sources that would confirm Roudometof, before making any reconciling edits.I want to see if Roudometof is an isolated case, or there are other reliable sources that consider the Albanian Orthodox Church a Greek Orthodox Church. Mesfushor (talk) 13:22, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Mes: The term "Greek Orthodox church" is sometimes wrongly used with the similar one "Church of Greece", like in above example. In fact the Albanian Orthodox church is sometimes reffered as Albanian Greek-Orthodox Church [][][], since it's traditionally part of the church of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.Alexikoua (talk) 15:20, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
does this concept really exist? 
ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia) used to call itself the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church; the largest Catholic Church of Byzantine tradition is officially called the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church; the Carpathian Orthodox Church in the US also calls itself the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church. I think the term 'Greek Orthodox' means either 'the Church of Greece' or the GOARCH and its equivalents but not Alexandria or Antioch etc, or 'world Orthodoxy in general'. It is common to refer to the Greek Orthodox of Alexandria, but not in the sense of this article (i.e. as belonging to a larger sub-section of Orthodoxy). Richardson mcphillips1 (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
A question 
What is this article supposed to say? There really is no "Greek" Orthodox. The Orthodox Christian religion is the same in Belarus, Latvia, America ect. What I am asking is, should this really be an articlt, and if it is, what should it be saying. I'd love to work on it, since I am Orthodox myself. Thanks! --Iliada 22:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)l
Hello, I am new here (in active participation--I have been simply a erader till today) so I apologise in advance for any errors I might make and I am thankful with the readers' patience.
OK, in response to the above-given question, I would venture to respond positively. There is a Greek Orthodo as opposed to a Russian or North American Orthodox Church. It all deepnds, of course, on whether one approaches the subject anthropologically or devotionally. Since this is wikipedia, I assume the former is the only appropriate option. It is true that the orthodox church purports unity and an ontological one at that. This of course must be respected but only as a religious belief, not as a fact. Thus, while the claim of unity and indivisibility may be thoroughly explained, the actual or, perhaps more appropriately, the visible church should be examined in all its variations.
The question still remains, "what then are the differences between greek and russian orthodoxy, and in what modalities do they emerge?" The responses are, of course, lengthy but I would like to huint at some. One is public relations. Given the close church-state links in most (and especially in greece and russia) orthodox countries, the success of the church is, at times (when competing against an external rival) the success of the state. While I am simply mentionign possibilities without wishing to post an article, I would like to mention that the late Christodoulos, Archbishops of Athens and Greece, would visit the Pope after a visit of Bartholomew of Constantinople, and would be requesting the return of ancient greek artifacts stored in the Vatican, even without any official delegation of authority by the pertinent ministry of greece.
Sociologically as well as demographically the congregations vary from orthodox area to orthodox area inetrnationally. Accordingly, sensitivities also vary in degree. For example, a beardless priest is unthinkable in greece but very much practiced in the united states.
"Greek Orthodox" churches as such are listed in the Sydney phone book. They should know if they exist or not.
Egyptian autocephalous? 
When has that ever been another name for the Greek Orthodox Churches?
Recent rv 
Although there is no urgent need to change the links to redirect pages, there is no reason for someone to revert again and again these edits. The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople has been called the "Great Church of Christ in Constantinople" in this article for no obvious reason. The name Patriarchate of Moscow, which is used instead of the Russian Orthodox Church, actually links to List of Metropolitans and Patriarchs of Moscow.. In the first section of the article, the paragraph should begin with a capital letter. When adding a list, commas are needless at the end of each line. - Sthenel (talk) 23:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Recent photo addition 
I have just notice the addition of an image of St Sophia's in Surry Hills. I don't think this is a very good example of a Greek Orthodox Church. Perhaps we could find a better example on Commons or in one of the other related articles. ***Adam*** 02:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Is this any better?
- There seems to be plenty of Greek Orthodox Church images in this Commons link  that would make a better example for this article. The one pictured would be better but still there would be a better one in the commons link provided. ***Adam*** 11:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree completely, if a good enough example can't be found in the commons, I'll upload one of my own pics, I have some that are very representative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
What about Israel? What is Palestine? 
I'm aware of the fact that many believers and even leaders of the Greek Orthodox Church are hostile toward the very idea of the legitimacy of the State of Israel. However, the country exists and about half of its Christian citizens are Greek Orthodox, not counting the Russian Orthodox. If I'm not mistaken, the Israeli government has a vote on the next patriarch, as is the case with Jordan and the PA, which no matter where you stand politically, is not a state and not officially "Palestine" according to most countries mentioned in this article. It is yet to be recognized and who knows what it'll choose to call itself if and when... The relationship between the church and the state of Israel are famous. Consider, for instance, the fact that the lot on which the Israeli parliament sits is actually owned by and leased from the church. If the state doesn't exist or not part of the church's domain, who pays the rent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 08:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Either you're trolling or just trying to spread anti-palestine/greek ortodox biased rumours.. I belive your refering to some local Greek Ortodox churches, like Palestine & Syria. the Greek Patriarch(in Constantinopel) is not by anyway selectd by the Israeli goverment.. I don't know about the local palestine/syria churches, but i very much doubt the israeli goverment would be allowed to have a "vote" in the choice of a new patriarch there.. --18.104.22.168 (talk) 22:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Clarification needed 
The opening paragraph states, "The church's current territorial areas include Bulgaria, Greece, Ukraine, Lebanon, Cyprus, Turkey, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Russia, Albania, Ethiopia, and Italy." IMO it is unclear. Shouldn't it also include the parts of the world - such as UK, USA, Malta, etc - whith Orthodox citizens who come under the aegis of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople? Politis (talk) 08:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think that table should be removed, nothing in it is accurate. The Ecumenical Patriarch is not the primate, it's headquarters are not Constantinople and it does not have a given territory. Greek Orthodox refers to a brand of Eastern Orthodoxy, not an actual church polity.--Ptolion (talk) 17:30, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
@Ptolion, tricky suggestions which I am not in a position to agree with or to reject. I think such changes would require rather substantial sourcing and even then, I am not sure if the new information would be considered by other editor as objective or subjective. Sorry for not being able to suggest anything :-( Politis (talk) 20:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
- The only sourcing which is required is in relation to the table. The table is unsourced, it is not likely to ever be sourced since it is inaccurate, so I am suggesting that it be removed.--Ptolion (talk) 11:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
The table has 'territory' and 'possessions', perhaps we could remove the 'territory'. I would also suggest tagging the whole article as needing verification or something; for such a major religion the article is remarkably thin an unconvincing. Politis (talk) 22:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)