Talk:Grey Nuns

Suggest a move to Grey Nuns

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 19:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The Grey Nuns name seems to be so common, I suggest a move to Grey Nuns as the article name, per WP:NAME. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• What's more, this edit was in fact in violation of WP:NAME's #1 guideline -- "Use the most easily recognized name." Article should never have been renamed. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
• They are likeliest not the only nuns who dress in grey. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Perhaps, as an aid to navigation for those who are seeking other communities and orders who dress in grey (or any other colour for that matter), a List of religious habits should be created. Then we could provide a hatnote from this article to the list. It's not really a subject for a disambiguation page, unless other orders are commonly known as Grey Nuns too. Andrewa (talk) 00:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support WP:COMMONNAME 76.66.201.13 (talk) 06:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• Concern as grey nuns is an ambiguous expression, as noted by Anthony Appleyard, although the List of religious habits would help, especially if dabbed as a heading and not buried as a See also. The order's webpage in fact is primarily entitled (in the English version) "Sisters of Charity of Montreal (Grey Nuns)". Among at least some readers, Black Friars is more common than Dominican Order, and the ambiguous Dominicans is more common, although I would not suggest a change, I would suggest caution that a "common name" rubric not be the only criterion. --Bejnar (talk) 06:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Reply Which Web page are you looking at? The one I was referring to was titled "Grey Nuns of the Sacred Heart". Perhaps that would be a better rename, so as to address your concerns about ambiguity? thanks, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It was "Sisters of Charity of Montreal (Grey Nuns)", which is the one that I found listed in External links in the article. I note that it has been updated since yesterday. --Bejnar (talk) 23:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you're misquoting Anthony... He didn't say that grey nuns is an ambiguous expression, he said likeliest, and there's world of difference between saying this (which is speculation, quite explicitly) and giving an example to show that there are such orders (which is then verifiable fact). See below, where the claim is repeated, but despite the question being asked nobody has yet provided an example. Speculation has its place, but we need to be careful (as Anthony is) not to mistake it for fact. Andrewa (talk) 19:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose for multiple reasons:
  1. This single organization is certainly not the only order referred to as the "grey nuns". Naming conventions require accurate, specific names. Common names aren't acceptable when that name could just as easily apply to a dozen other groups.
  2. Their article belongs under their proper name, just like George W. Bush isn't found under W and Nicholas Sarkozy isn't found under Sarko. Common name applies when there are multiple names with equal claims to correctness, such as Lion and Panthera leo. It should not be used to elevate an informal nickname above the legally correct name for a person or organization.
  3. Once you start amending the nickname to deal make it more specific (that is, to exclude all the other orders that wear grey clothes), you're engaging in WP:Original research.
  4. Finally, this article says that the order has quit wearing grey clothes, so the nickname is very likely to fade over time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Some replies: 1. Can you give an example of another order of Grey Nuns? That would help to decide the best disambiguation. Common names are perfectly acceptable if disambiguated as necessary, in fact it is official Wikipedia policy to prefer them. 2. Not true. Common name is the first choice. 3. Not true. Completely misquotes WP:OR. 4. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Andrewa (talk) 20:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I must say, the Grey Nuns nomenclature seems to be everywhere on the RS, despite the fact that they no longer wear the habits. The name seems unlikely to disappear any time soon. If it ever does, and we're all still here, I'd be happy to take it up again and rename. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

So it appears that (4) above may not even be a very good prediction. As (2) and (3) are based on falsehoods, that leaves (1). Anyone at all able to back this up with an example, or is it just baseless speculation despite the certainly? Andrewa (talk) 02:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

whether it is moved or not...

on the Wikipedia main page I tried Grey Nuns and d'Youville and neither led me to this page. I hope that can be changed. And the name "Grey Nuns" does not only refer to their habit (which was taupe, in any case, so it is not quite correct to say 'they wore grey') but represents a pun in French having to do with how St Marguerite's husband made a living (which she inherited).--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 13:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• Grey Nuns does work as a redirect, each time I tried it. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

you're right, thanks. d'Youville doesn't: you have to use the full Marguerite d'Youville --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 03:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

another renaming question

Is there some support for saying "The Order of the Sisters of Charity of Montreal" rather than "The Sisters of Charity of Montreal"? The Sisters constitute a congregation rather than an order, and saying "The Order of" makes it sound like that is part of the name of the group, which I am not sure is correct. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 13:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Move back to Sisters of Charity of Montreal

The move to Grey Nuns was based on quite faulty logic and no clear consensus. "Grey Nuns" is just the English nickname. They are Soeurs Grises in Montreal, so if you want to use the nickname as the WP:COMMONNAME that is a more logical choice. But Sisters of Charity of Montreal is common, official and not prone to ambiguity. It is the only possible description that would be recognised internationally. "Order of" isn't needed. I propose therefore that the article should come back to that title. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Move back to Sisters of Charity of Montreal

The move to Grey Nuns was based on quite faulty logic and no clear consensus. "Grey Nuns" is just the English nickname. They are Soeurs Grises in Montreal, so if you want to use the nickname as the WP:COMMONNAME that is a more logical choice. But Sisters of Charity of Montreal is common, official and not prone to ambiguity. It is the only possible description that would be recognised internationally. "Order of" isn't needed. I propose therefore that the article should come back to that title. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:47, 22 July 2011 (UTC)