Talk:Gruffydd ap Llywelyn

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Untitled[edit]

How is the 11th century Gruffydd ap Llewelyn supposed to have "fought Mercia" when Mercia had ceased to have independent existence over a hundred years earlier? L.E./12.144.5.2 02:33, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Mercia that is referred to is an Earldom of the kingdom of England. Condor.

Opening sentence[edit]

"Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (c. 1000–August 5, 1063) was the ruler of all Wales from 1055 until his death, one of very few able to make this boast."

Two pedantic observations:

  1. He was in fact the only ruler of all Wales from 1055 until his death, hence the only one able to make this boast.
  2. Most British monarchs since the 13th Century have been rulers of all Wales (as a geographical area, not a kingdom) until their deaths, unless I'm mistaken.

Of course I know what it's trying to say, but the wording is rather sloppy for the opening sentence of an article. Perhaps easier to remove the bit after the comma, rather than trying to make it strictly accurate. Mtford 04:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Marriage and issue[edit]

The fact that both Gruffydd's sons were from Ealdgyth is carried over from one unverified genealogy list to the next, without any contemporary source confirming it - or is there? It appears to be quite illogical for two reasons :

  1. These two princes gave battle in 1070 to claim their inheritance, when they would have been no more than 11 and 12 years old, too young even by Dark Age Celtic standards to lead an army.
  2. Gruffydd would have reached the age of 40+ (57 if we agree on a birth near 1000 as suggested here, and which I find also highly debatable) without any previous union? Of course, it is not impossible - Llewelyn the Last did not marry until his fifties' - but we know Gruffydd carried off his southern rival's wife in 1046, could she not be a concubine and mother of his sons? Old Welsh law recognized several forms of union, so I heard...

As for Gruffydd's birth date, something in the late 1010's appears more credible. c.f. his father's biography. Condor October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.196.50.204 (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It appears that the writer of this page has confused the many Ediths associated with the Godwinson family - very easy to do, considering the number of them. This page links Gruffydd ap Llywelyn to Edith Swansneck (multiple spellings), the common law wife of Harold Godwinson (who was his partner for well over 15 years) rather than to Edith, daughter of the Earl of Mercia, who was likely married to Harold in a political marriage (sanctioned by the church) in early 1066. (It does not appear that she has her own wikipedia page.) I would correct the link, but I'm new to this and will rely on others to weigh in and clean up, if they see fit. 12.47.208.50 (talk) 06:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide[edit]

Could somebody familiar with Welsh pronunciation and the IPA make a phonetic pronunciation guide for his name? I'm guessing most English speakers would have trouble pronouncing his name.--Witan 20:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Seconded. This would be useful.99.245.248.91 (talk) 06:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Weak references[edit]

Knowing the vast amount of relevant (and reasonnably recent) publications found in the university libraries of Wales (Cardiff, Averystwyth, Bangor...) and elsewhere, I am always surprised to see a wide-public history book from the early XXth century given as a prime reference (especially knowing the considerable progresses accomplished in History and Archaeology since), and better stil, something entitled "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700". (P.S. I am now located in France and cannot myself physically consult works that I once read; can anyone help?)

Hereford Castle[edit]

Hereford Castle was one of several castles in that area which were built by Normans (on behalf of Ralph the Timid) before 1066, another being Ewyas Harold - see this ref - "The first recorded motte in England was in 1051 when French castle builders were building one for the English king in Hereford." Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I was certainly puzzled by the mention of a Norman castle in England in 1055, until I followed up the link to Ralph the Timid and saw he had employed Normans. I wonder if it would be better to change "Norman" to "Norman built", to make it clearer why there was a Norman castle in England 11 years before the conquest? Wardog (talk) 17:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
The idea that there were no Normans in England before William's invasion is a bit of a myth. Edward the Confessor spent his early adult life - from the ages of about 13 to 38 - living in Normandy, as an exile from Cnut and his successors, and when he returned he brought with him many of his Norman friends and confidants, including Ralph. They in turn used Norman masons to build castles on the continental European model, in places like Herefordshire. The pre-conquest castles such as Hereford were built both by and for Normans - Ralph was a Norman lord, subject to Edward. So, I don't necessarily think the wording needs to be changed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Rise to Power & Missing Setbacks[edit]

The Annales Cambriae B Text makes it quite clear that Hywel wasn't killed in the action at "Pencadeir" – in fact, he is recorded as victorious in the next year at "Pullduwath" and in the same year Gruffydd is recorded as being captured by the "gentiles" (i.e. viking pagans) of "Dulin" (Cynan's allies in Dublin?).

I'm not sure if there are other sources which contradict or give better context to these entries, but the page should certainly not simply pass over the source documents this history is based on. — LlywelynII 19:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)