Talk:Guarani language

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Reinventing the Wheel?[edit]

This page should be merged with the page Guaraní language, shouldn't it?

No, because, in addition to the main articles on Guaraní language and Guaraní languages, there are individual articles on each specific Guaraní language, e.g. Chiripá, Eastern Bolivian Guaraní, Mbyá Guaraní, Paraguayan Guaraní language, Western Argentine Guaraní, etc. This is normal. The same occurs with other similar cases of closely-related languages. For example, for the Wichí people of Argentina, there are three language articles: Wichí Lhamtés Güisnay, Wichí Lhamtés Nocten, and Wichí Lhamtés Vejoz. What needs to be improved, however, is the linkage. For example, the articles for the three Wichí languages just mentioned are linked to each other but not to the article on the Wichí people, which is odd. Likewise, the separate articles on the individual Guaraní languages should probably have links to each other and to the articles on Guaraní, Guaraní language, Guaraní languages, and Tupi-Guarani languages. The reason they don't is that these are mostly stubs created with information from the Ethnologue, which is why they are linked only or primarily to the Ethnologue. But they can be expanded. Pasquale 22:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
If Guarani language covers the Guarani languages, then why are they two separate articles? kwami (talk) 10:28, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Kwami, what you are saying seems very reasonable at first blush, however, the problem is that Guarani language and Guarani languages are not coterminous. Please refer to the article on the Tupi-Guarani languages. While the Guarani language consists of a number of "dialects" now generally classified as distinct languages (e.g. Chiripá, Eastern Bolivian Guaraní, Mbyá Guaraní, Paraguayan Guaraní, Western Argentine Guaraní, etc.), the Guarani languages also include a couple of additional languages that have never been considered as Guaraní "dialects", such as Guarayu and Sirionó. I have updated the Guaraní languages article to reflect this. Pasquale (talk) 15:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Surprisingly, instead of continuing this discussion, User:Kwamikagami has done precisely what I was advising him not to do: he has redirected Paraguayan Guaraní language to Guarani language. However, he has not done the same for the remaining "dialects" of the Guarani language, e.g. Chiripá, Eastern Bolivian Guaraní, Mbyá Guaraní, Western Argentine Guaraní, which are in the same relationship to the Guarani language as Paraguayan Guaraní, namely they are all varieties of that language, formerly considered "dialects" of it, but now generally classified as distinct languages. I am saying "surprisingly" because I thought my explanation was perfectly clear. I have reversed Kwamikagami's redirect. Pasquale (talk) 16:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't clear, because you never distinguished the Guarani language from the Guarani languages. In fact, you implied they were synonymous. I see what you mean now that you've spelled it out in the classification.
We still contradict ourselves, however: on Tupi-Guarani languages, we still say that Guarani language is synonymous with Guarani languages.
We don't need to have a separate article for everything SIL assigns an ISO3 code to. Certainly if E Bol & W Arg are the same, we should merge them. Personally, I think we should probably merge them and Par into "Guarani". Are you saying that if we do that (branch A of group I), we should also merge Mbya &c. (branch B of group I)? kwami (talk) 20:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes, my understanding is that, in its broadest sense, Guaraní language (notice I am using the singular) includes — in addition to Eastern Bolivian/Western Argentine Guaraní and Western Bolivian Guaraní (which still has no article) — also Chiripá and Mbyá Guaraní, while, in its strictest sense, it is synonymous with Paraguayan Guaraní, but that's only because the latter variety has the largest number of speakers by far and is well understood by the speakers of the other varieties, to the point of being on the verge of replacing them. Also, the minor dialects are not as well described as Paraguayan Guaraní, so it's not clear to what extent the differences are linguistic and to what extent they are purely tribal. In Brazil, for example, there exist three varieties of the Guaraní language (again, I am using the singular), respectively known as Kaiowá, Nhandeva and Mbyá. But whether these are primarily tribal or linguistic groupings is not quite clear.
In principle, I would not be opposed to merging Eastern Bolivian and Western Argentine Guaraní, since they appear to refer to what is essentially the same language, or the same "dialect" of the Guaraní language. However, I would recommend leaving them separate, because this language is also spoken in a third country, i.e. Paraguay, where it is locally known as Ñandeva (while, outside of Paraguay, specifically in Brazil, Nhandeva refers to Chiripá. So, the whole thing is rather messy, which is why I would leave things as they are, until things are sorted out.
What we do need, however, is an article on Western Bolivian Guaraní, patterned on the articles for the other "dialects" of the Guaraní language. Pasquale (talk) 19:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
All right, next question: Guarani languages is defined as Tupi-Guarani languages branches I and II. However, in the T-G article, these are independent. Is Guayaru-Siriono is any closer to Guarani than Tupi is? In the current definition, are the Guarani languages not monophyletic, or does the T-G article need updating? I ask because there are other T-G branches which are called "Guarani" but not included as Guarani languages; we don't normally posit non-linguistic language families. kwami (talk) 22:07, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Kwami, to answer your question, yes, that was my understanding from a quick review of the literature. However, (1) I am no expert on this language family; and (2) I believe the exact subgrouping of the Tupi-Guarani languages is pretty murky. If you have the time to review the existing literature on the subject and make improvements accordingly, please do so. But, of course, cross-referential research within the Wikipedia articles is not going to shed any further light at this point. Pasquale (talk) 15:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Guarani speakers are not indigenous? Since when?[edit]

I have a problem with the statement made in the first paragraph of the page. How is Guarani the only indigenous language with an overwhelming majority of speakers being non-native? This is ridiculous because the majority of speakers are people of mixed european/amerindian ancestry, which means they are of indigenous ancestry and hence indigenous people nonetheless. They couldn't have come from anywhere else but paraguay and are therefore indigenous. Its not like a large group of mestizo people from another country immigrated into paraguay and these are the speakers! The guarani people were always there and accommodated some european immigrants into their population - suddenly they are not indigenous? This is very strange to me - as a mestizo person myself, we consider ourselves indigenous although not all will say "amerindian" - indigenous nonetheless. Please change this.

October 15, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.192.176 (talk) 04:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The statement you object to has to be understood in context. The context is the fact that most other indigenous languages of the Americas are struggling to stay alive, many of them are nearing extinction, the speakers often tend to be elderly members of remote and isolated native communities, while the younger generations often reject their ancestral languages in favor of Spanish, Portuguese, or English, depending on what country they live in. Paraguay is a unique case, in the sense that an indigenous language (Paraguayan Guaraní) is more widespread than the language brought by the European settlers (in this case, Spanish), and it is not restricted to isolated native (i.e. Amerindian) communities, on the contrary it is also widespread among Paraguayan people who have no Guaraní ancestry. If I were a Paraguayan Guaraní speaker, I would be proud that my language was so popular! Pasquale (talk) 15:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thats my point exactly, that it is widespread among all paraguayan people, who themselves are overwhelmingly of indigenous heritage. The statistics prove this. The language is spoken by most paraguayan people who are themselves mostly indigenous. I think its under 15 percent of the country that is non indigenous and most people who dont speak guarani are actually those people who are the most white looking people. October 16 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.192.176 (talk) 15:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Point taken. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I have toned down the statement you objected to. Let me know if this is satisfactory. Pasquale (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Mistaken about Misiones?[edit]

Yesterday I made a comment on the Guaraní language article, concerning the statement that it is an official language in Misiones Province as well as Corrientes Province. Reading the articles on these provinces led me to believe that this was not the case for Misiones. Another user said that the same articles on Spanish Wikipedia seemed to corroborate this belief, so I deleted the mention of Misiones. I deleted the same mention in this article; but as I was doing so, I noticed there was a reference for it. This makes me think that maybe the information about Misiones was true after all. I wasn't thinking at the moment, so I didn't notice what the reference was before deleting it. I'm guessing it was from the same place that the Corrientes reference was from; but that reference is a Spanish website. Could someone who can read Spanish please check that website for information confirming whether or not Guaraní is an official language in Misiones? Thank you. NoriMori (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi NoriMori, I did look at the linked news story in question and it's an article from El Diario Digital of Posadas, Misiones, Argentina of Friday, October 29, 2004. The article's title is: "MISIONES: PARLAMENTO JUVENIL INSTAURA AL IDIOMA GUARANÍ COMO LENGUA OFICIAL" ("Misiones: Youth Parliament Establishes the Guaraní Language as an Official Language"). The following is a translation of the first paragraph, which basically says it all: "In its first session, the Youth Parliament which operates in the Misiones Legislature passed a law establishing the Guaraní language as an official language of the province. It also passed a polemic bill which prohibits violent games in cyber-cafés. Furthermore, it asks for the installation of ATMs in places that lack this service and for the extension of visiting hours at rural outreach clinics. These regulations passed by the teens are not binding, however some legislator might support them as initiatives." In conclusion, I would say, you did fine to delete the reference to Misiones. Pasquale (talk) 17:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Pasquale. To be honest, I wanted to address my request to you alone, but I didn't think that would be in good taste. Thank you for responding so quickly. NoriMori (talk) 01:12, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

G with tilde[edit]

Hello! Please to put the letter G with tilde in Unicode! --Jaques O. Carvalho 01:35, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Unicode is accepting any more letters like that. But if you want, you can apply to the Unicode Consortium. We don't handle such things. — kwami (talk) 21:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation[edit]

Which pronunciation is correct, [aʋãɲẽˈʔẽ] or [ʔãʋ̃ãɲẽˈʔẽ]? Stephen MUFC (talk) 21:57, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

According to our article, it would be the latter. — kwami (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
But both are included in the article. Stephen MUFC (talk) 22:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)