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hard and clay in 77
Some tournament wins by Vilas in the summer of 1977 (including Columbus, South Orange, and Louisville) were probably not on hard court, but an har tru, a surface that was more like a clay court and was played at the USO 1975-1977 (counted as clay by the ATP). Its one of the many faults and inconsistencies on the ATP webside, on which the article is following. Nadal wouldn't have broken a 53 match record of Vilas on clay (as it is acccepted by the ATP), if the hard court notations of the ATP were true. Its simple arithmetic, he lost on clay shortly before French Open.Also the overall win streak of Vilas was probabably 50 matches, as it was announced in all papers back then, before Nastase broke it in France. The ATP probably doesn't count a tournament in Rye in the US, which Vilas also won (so his tally is 17 titles in 1977, not 16), second to Laver in open era, who won 18 or 17 titles in 1969 (depending on the count, if you count a 4 men event in London BBC 2, or not).(german friend 3. Febr. 20007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC).
Laver's Record cosists of non-ATP Tour, liked demostration tours. 220.127.116.11 01:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC) Vilas' Record (16 ATP singles titles in single year / season) is widely recognized. 18.104.22.168 01:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it is non-ATP Tour because the ATP association has been created in September 1972, the ATP ranking has been published for the first time on August, 23, 1973 and the ATP Tour was born in 1990 so all the men who have played before those dates can't hold ATP records. Those records have no meaning because they are absolutely incomplete with even wrong and missing data in the open era and which above all completely ignore a whole century of tennis history ("modern" tennis was born in 1858-1859 and the first tournament known nowadays is the handicap men' singles held at Nahant, Massachussets in August 1876. Players such as Laver, Tilden or Drobny had won more tournaments than Connors. Do we have to ignore that Anthony Frederick Wilding has won at least 108 tournaments because he played before WWI (and tragically died during it) ? Therefore Laver has won more tournaments in a single year (not only in 1969 but also in 1967 with the same total : 18) than Vilas (17, Rye included, in 1977). I insist but for instance for the year 1970 half the tournaments are missing in the ATP (Guide or Website) statistics among them the Dunlop Open Sydney tournament, possibly the 4th greatest event of that year, or the Wembley tournament, so do not consider the ATP as the holy bible of tennis (do not consider too the bible as true). Nastase had also won 17 tournaments in 1973: 15 listed by the ATP of which 14 are listed in their Website (another problem with the ATP statistics : why are there some many differences between their Players' Guide and their Website ?) plus 2 other ones not listed by the association. It's more than likely that a player such as Tilden has won not far from 20 tournaments in his best year. In conclusion consider the ATP as a good source since 1990 but before be cautious and particularly between 1968 and 1971 when ATP records are absolute rubbish (see my example below) and before 1968 are completely nil. I often cite the Roche-Laver head-to-head statistics in 1969. If we believe the ATP source Laver led Roche 3-0 that year (Australian Open, Philadelphia Open (and not "Philadelphia WCT" as written in the site) and US Open) but in reality Roche defeated Laver 5 times in 9 meetings which weren't at all "demonstration tours". Here is the complete list : January 19, Roche won the New South Wales Championships in Sydney 64 46 97 1210 over Laver in the final; January 25 or 26, Laver beat Roche in the semifinal of the Australian Open, Brisbane, 75 2220 911 16 63; February 3, Roche b Laver in the New Zealand Open final, Auckland, 61 64 46 63; February 9, Philadelphia Open final, Laver b Roche 75 64 64; February 13 or 18, Hollywood (Florida) Pro final, Roche b Laver 63 97 64; February 26 or 27 or 28, Oakland Pro final, Roche b Laver 46 64 119; May, Amsterdam Pro 3rd place, Roche b Laver 63 36 62; September 7, US Open, US Open-Forest Hills, final, Laver b Roche 79 61 61 62; November 22 or 23, Wills Open Covered Courts, Queen's Club & Wembley Arena Laver b Roche 64 61 63 (in the ATP Website just appear the Australian, Philadelphia and US Open tournaments). Concerning the 60s or 70s many tournament names, dates and surfaces are also wrong in the site.
Consequently Vilas's record, though "widely recognized" as you've written, in reality doesn't exist (it is just an ATP record so to be considered very cautiously). "widely" is wrong as so often when "widely" doesn't master his subject because in this case "widely" doesn't know that the ATP ignores more than 70% of tennis competition history (if I suppose that the ATP statistics are exhaustive enough (the word "enough" is very important because it means that it is far from "complete") since 1971 and that the first tournament was held in 1876 then the ATP brushes away about 95 years of tennis competition which represent more than 70% of 131 years of competition (from August 1876 to November 2007) Carlo Colussi 12:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hello, if you talk about the Roche-Laver meetings I've got the results from a) Laver's autobiography "The education of a tennis player", some "World Tennis" and "Tennis de France" magazines or "World of Tennis '70" (related to 1969 and published by John Barrett who wrote books about Wimbledon with Alan Little). Carlo Colussi (talk) 16:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear Carlo, I know (with my 72 years old) and you know that one of the tournaments you count on Laver '69 record always were considered like exhibition (I was present there)... I believe that Rye is exhibition too (I was in the court too!). In my opinion, Vilas record is a valid mark, in 16 titles, with the considerations below ALWAYS... --Tennis old man (talk) 19:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Same for Nastase, two of the events you count I remember there not totally "oficial" at that moment circuit... like i said before, I talk because I was present in many many tournaments (not TV!), and saw greatest players from a distance of 10 meters or sometimes a little more!!! Thank you for open the eyes of the people about ATP and tennis history.--Tennis old man (talk) 19:22, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- Hello, (you're 72 so you're born in (1935 or) 1936, the same year as Roy Emerson) if my memory is good, 7 of the 18 tournaments won by Laver in 1969, were "less than 8 men" pro (and not open) tournaments so possibly they weren't as important and serious as that. Of course I can't swear they were "official" because I haven't seen these events (the first tennis player that I've ever heard was Nastase, it was probably in 1973 when he won Roland (I'm a Frenchy) and the first extract of match I've seen in my life was a 4th round between Nastase and Kodes at Roland in 1977 : I was only 14 years old at the time and 45 now).
According to you, which events won by Laver and Nastase were mere exhibitions ? For Laver I guess Anaheim pro 1969 because of the VASS scoring ? What else ? I don't exactly remember now because I've done Nastase's list many months ago (Nastase's comes mainly from a) his autobiography and b) Richard Evans's books (the statistics until 1978, in both books, were listed by McCauley. Amazingly 3 meetings between Nastase and Borg, all won by the Swede, were forgotten : two in autumn 1978, Tokyo indoor and Stockholm and one in 1979 (the Davis Cup meeting)) and Laver's list was (if I'm not mistaken) was made by Jeffreyneave, Germanfriend and myself a long time ago too. Since the start of the year I've only searched tennis results between ... 1877 and 1914. Yesterday I was looking at 1881 (William Charles Renshaw winning the Irish, the Prince's (London) and Wimbledon Chps over respectively Lawford, Mulholland and Hartley) and last week 1905. Now I'm reading a superb book written by Len and Shelley Richardson about Wilding and at this very right moment I'm seeing Brookes's progress at Wimbledon 1914 before his famous match against Froitzheim when Norman seemed to be favored by a dubious call in the 5th set (as McEnroe against Borg in the 1980 US Open final in the fifth set : each time I've seen at the time the replay on TV of the doubtful ball, I wasn't convinced at all that the ball was in)). Carlo Colussi (talk) 16:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Record broken by Federer
Care to update? elpincha 14:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC) (ah. me rompen las bolas esas cajitas que no sirven para nada)
- Update what? I though Cañas screwed Federed in breaking Vilas' record.
- New messages go to the bottom of the talk page (use the [+] right next to the  button on top of the page).
- Y no me borres mis preciosas cajitas! --Mariano(t/c) 19:54, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Clay and not Hard at Louisville, Columbus and South Orange in 1977
The ATP is probably wrong in stating that Louisville, Columbus and South Orange in 1977 were played on hard : the ITF Website contradicts that. The ATP site itself puts that Louisville and South Orange were on clay in 76 and 78. At the time many US tournaments before the US Open took time to revert from clay to hard after the US Open had changed in 78. Carlo Colussi 11:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Answer to 22.214.171.124 : see my comments just above. There are many errors in the ATP Website particularly the data related to the XXth century. Newcombe is credited with two Canadian titles in 1971 while it's the same tournament. McEnroe would have won London and Wembley in 1978 but it's the same tournament too : there are a lot of other wrong data of that sort in this site. Carlo Colussi 13:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
ATP fix Mc Enroe error about Wembley, at least one!!! Another example, Rotterdam 1982 win by Vilas, in the event profile says that the winner is MECIR!!!
Don't forget the Montecarlo final of 1981 not held!!!! (Johannesburg 1977 too!!!)
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Vilas has the records of more titles and matches wins in clay, but most important, this records too in outdoor (clay + grass + carpet + hard). Since Open Era, of course.
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"Apolinario" is not his second name! Right today (December 11st in Federer-Del Potro conference in Buenos Aires) Vilas saids Wikipedia is wrong named him as Apolinario as his second name. In fact spanish Vilas-Wikipadia page don´t says nothing about "Apolinario". Please change it. Thanks. Luis Babboni (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2012 (UTC)