Talk:HIV/AIDS

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First sentence[edit]

I think it is better not to confuse HIV and AIDS, and to explain it clearly in the first sentence. Rather than "Human immunodeficiency virus infection / acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) is a disease of the human immune system caused by infection with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).", I suggest "The acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) is a disease of the human immune system caused by infection with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)." to make it shorter and clearer. Coreyemotela (talk) 04:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC).

This article is not just about AIDS. Thus your suggested changes introduce an error. The disease we are discussing is a spectrum from 1) acute HIV infection 2) HIV infection 3) AIDS. All three of these are referred to as HIV/AIDS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:30, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Was discussed here [1] and before Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:34, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
My suggestion does not introduce errors. It simply simplifies the first sentence. I do think that most people arriving on this page are looking forward to information about AIDS, more than about early acute HIV infection symptoms. It is not a problem to keep the introduction very broad, but it is likely to be less clear. Coreyemotela (talk) 06:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC).
I really have no objection to the current intro, but given that this has come up more than once, it may be useful to address it. It's difficult to be both concise and accurate, but perhaps something like: "The human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) causes a disease of the human immune system that has been divided into two clinical stages, the first described simply as HIV infection, and the second as acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). The disease is often now referred to as HIV/AIDS in order to include the entire spectrum of pathology caused by HIV without specifying the clinical stage of the disease." - Nunh-huh 07:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
HIV/AIDS is a single spectrum of disease. Rather than two separate diseases. We see this in many conditions. You have sepsis and septic shock, you have dengue fever and severe dengue fever (new name for dengue hemorrhagic fever) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:33, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Added the line "The term HIV/AIDS represents the entire range of disease cause by the HIV virus from early infection to late stage symptoms." More detail is found in the body of the article on this topic. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I still think that the first sentence need to be improved as Nunh-huh or I suggested. User:Jmh649, could you suggest something else if you think that our suggestions are not good enough? Coreyemotela (talk) 16:35, 1 June 2014 (UTC).
The first sentence is correct to the my best understanding of the literature. A name of a disease is allowed to have the name of the infectious agent within it. For example dengue fever is caused by dengue virus.
This name is a little more complicated than usual as the article is about a spectrum of disease. This spectrum of disease is usually called HIV/AIDS. This was determined after I read 100s if not 1000s of pages of text on this topic over a number of months.
So what we need to even consider changing this sentence is for those who wish it to be changed to gather some high quality sources that support the change. I can gather more high quality sources to support what we have now and we can have a RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Format of references[edit]

In a recent edit, Boghog changed data within a large number of citations well beyond what he claimed in his edit summary. The substitution of {{Cite pmid}} and {{Cite doi}} for the contents of their respective {{cite journal}} which were automatically built and are contained in the Template:Cite pmid and Template:Cite doi page hierarchy. In total there were 3 {{Cite pmid}} and 1 {{Cite doi}} in this article. I don't have a problem with the substitution of those templates. In fact, I support it and have re-inserted those substitutions without loss of any data already contained in them.

The problem is that under the color of the authority of that consensus, and in the same edit, Boghog changed the format of many other references. His edit summary claimed two additional things. The first was that he was replacing the deprecated |coauthors=. I also agree that is a good idea, there is a bot which is going through and doing that. I have implemented that change.

In addition, he claimed "per WP:CITEVAR restored originally established style". As best I can determine, that is a complete fabrication. In reality, it appears he was taking the opportunity to change the citation style to his preferred Vancouver system under the color of saying that it was because of a consensus for change. At the same time he took many references which were separated out into individual parameters for each author and combined them all into a single |author=. This has the detrimental effect of corrupting the COinS reference data generated by the citation templates. In the process he discarded all first name information leaving only the first and middle initial and changed any such initials which already existed from "A. B." to "AB".

There is an issue that the citations on this page are not in a uniform format. Do we want to address this at this time?

Because the guidelines are that we should retain the original format unless there is consensus for change, I did some research in the page history to find out what was initially used. What was actually first used for references in this article was a separate page of references. That page is preserved at Talk:HIV/AIDS/Archive 14. These appear, even in the first version, to be in a somewhat mixed format, but none of them are in Vancouver system. In looking through the history of this page, I did not see any citations on the page until they began to be inserted in parenthetical style at 22:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC). This was relatively rapidly changed away from parenthetical style and has existed as normal citations for the last 8, or so, years. I did not make a detailed study of it, but it appears that there has never been complete uniformity in reference style in this article.

The question is should we change all the references to one format? If so, which one?

[As a side note: I have replaced all instances of the deprecated |coauthors= parameter with the appropriate numbered authors parameter. This was done to head-off it being done by the bot which is going around doing so. I understand that this discussion may result in needing to change these parameters to some other format and I accept that my making this change commits me to implementing any such consensus based change on those citations if it is not done in the general implementation of any such consensus based change.]— Makyen (talk) 00:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, the easiest option for a uniform style is the default formatting of the CS1 templates (e.g. {{cite journal}}, {tl|cite news}}, {{cite web}}, etc.). Other formats are, of course, acceptable. However, anything other than the default will require constant changes on the part of editors watching the page as new citations are entered without specifying the non-default usage.
If something other than the default CS1 style is used, my personal preference is for not the Vancouver system. I dislike loosing the existing data of full first names already existing in many citations. I dislike having the initials stated as "AB" instead of "A. B.". While I think that mashing the first initials together is an issue for the citations being accessible and understandable by the predominantly lay people reading Wikipedia, my main objection to the Vancouver system is the insistence on highly abbreviated journal names. I believe that having the journal names in a format which is basically incomprehensible to the uninitiated severely reduces how accessible articles are to our readership. The primary justification for doing so in paper-based medical and technical journals is to reduce the space required by references and thus the cost of printing the journal. We do not have the issue of increase cost to provide full names for journals and authors. Admittedly, this is not as significant an issue when a link exists to click through to the actual cited article.
I am not arguing that we should go through and determine full names for all authors where they do not already exist on the page. I do object to tossing out information which already exists in the article. — Makyen (talk) 00:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC); brief re-look striking text which does not assume good faith. 17:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
As long as we replace cite doi and cite pmid with cite journal I do not care. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
The {{cite pmid}} and {{cite doi}} templates have been replaced.
I believe a wholesale change to the Vancouver system would make the references less accessible to people not already familiar with the conventions. Thus, I oppose doing so. — Makyen (talk) 05:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
@Makyen: "As best I can determine, that is a complete fabrication.". Below is a list of key citation format changes in history of this article:
In summary, the Vancouver style authors was established by the first major contributor to journal citations that included authors in June of 2005. From September 2005 to at least May 2012, initials were used for authors first and middle names. From February 2006 to at least May 2012, a single author parameter was used in a large majority of the references. From March 2008 to at least May 2012, Vancouver style authors were used in a large majority of the references.
@Makyen: "I do object to tossing out information which already exists in the article" – Spelled out first names of authors is not essential information. The vast majority of Wikipedia readers are not familiar with the authors of these papers in the first place, hence having the full name spelled out adds very little value. Those that are familiar with the literature would immediately recognize authors with or without the first name spelled out. In almost all cases links to the original articles are provided if someone has a burning urge to know an author's first name. In addition, Vancouver style authors IMHO are cleaner and easier to read. Finally WP:CITEVAR encourages consistent formatting within the same article. My edits restored a consistent citation style that was established in June 2005 and re-established in March of 2008 and maintained to at least May 2012. Hence my edits are completely consistent with WP:CITEVAR. Boghog (talk) 06:22, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
@Makyen: "This has the detrimental effect of corrupting the COinS reference data generated by the citation templates.": Why clutter up articles with "first1, last1, first2, last2, ..." parameter bloat? To generate metadata that no one uses? If a citation has many authors, it is unreasonable to force an editor to add each author to a separate author fields in GUIs such as the RefToolbar. It is much more practical to use a single author parameter.
The main reason that has been used to justify generation of metadata is so that citation can be reused. However I think it is also important to keep in mind:

[Wikipedia] may not consistently be reliable because work submitted to Wikipedia can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone.
— WP:WINARS

This includes citations. Reusing citations that may have been vandalized or contain honest mistakes is a bad idea. It is better to reload them fresh from reliable external databases such as PubMed. For this, the only metadata that is required an identifier such as a PMID, doi, etc.
Per WP:CITESTYLE, there is no such thing as a house WP style for citations and the Vancouver system is specifically mentioned as one of several styles that are used in Wikipedia articles. The advantage of Vancouver style authors in a single author parameter is that the resulting cite journal templates are significantly more compact and this compactness does matter. Verbose citation templates makes it harder for editors to read and edit the prose around the citations. That reduces editor productivity which in turn hurts everyone.
The best long term solution may be a modified version of {{vcite2 journal}} (and vcite2 book, etc.) that would produce clean author metadata by parsing the author parameter data (Vancouver system authors are comma delimited and hence trivial to parse) while avoiding "first1, last1, first2, last2, ..." parameter clutter. Boghog (talk) 08:49, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
"my main objection to the Vancouver system is the insistence on highly abbreviated journal names" – I have no objections whatsoever to full journal names. In fact, my edits did not change any of the journal names. If a full journal name was there before my edit, it was still there after my edit. Furthermore it would be a trivial matter to modify my script to replace all journal abbreviations with their full names for citations that have a pmid if there is consensus to do so. Boghog (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I just noticed that the Wikipedia template filling tool that was used to generate many of the references in this article (see discussion) has an option to "Use full journal title". We could change that from an option to the default. Boghog (talk) 13:02, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Boghog, I appreciate the detailed response. In order to reasonably respond to you I need to take more time to re-read your response and the associated links in detail and do more looking around at the history of this article beyond the time I have already spent prior to my first post here. Unfortunately, I need to be doing other things in real life today. However, it is clear that how I worded my original post did not do a good job of assuming good faith. I have struck a portion of my original post. In part, the reduction in my assuming good faith was because:
  1. It appeared from your contributions that you were doing this across multiple articles making similar changes;
  2. You are in the bot approval process for doing at least a part of the edits which you made. It was unclear if these were the actions of that bot, or just assisted based on the code for that bot. Although obviously, they were not performed from your bot account.
  3. The consensus you cited in your edit summaries explicitly states that it "Probably not a good idea to address the author issue" at the same time as the edits to replace {{cite pmid}}, {{cite doi}}, and {{cite isbn}} as this will require more discussion and is a separate issue. thus, it was explicitly stated that conflating substituting the above templates and changing authors should not be done at the same time.
  4. There are ongoing discussions at Help talk:Citation Style 1, in which both of us are/have participated, where such changes are being discussed, including objections to such edits by other authors. Although those have stalled for the last 10–11 days.
  5. I had assumed that there would be a hold placed on edits which remove reference information from articles while such discussions continued due to it being much easier to remove such information than to recover it once removed.
From the discussions at Help talk:Citation Style 1 it is clear that there is opposition to making such changes from multiple editors. Those discussions imply that there has been at least one other discussion about such changes on another article talk page. Given all that, it appeared clear that making such edits was contentious, particularly across multiple articles. Doing so at the same time as substituting in the {{cite pmid}}, {{cite doi}}, and {{cite isbn}} templates was specifically against the consensus you cited in your edit summary. — Makyen (talk) 17:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Makyen, thank you for your calm, constructive response. A couple of additional points:
"use whatever author format is already present" – I assume this means the predominate citation style used in the article (or more properly the first established citation style) and not necessarily the style used by the {{cite pmid}} template. Correct? Boghog (talk) 05:34, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:24, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
  • This is perhaps a subtle point, but my edit summary stated "per consensus, substituted cite doi and pmid templates; replaced deprecated coauthor parameter; per WP:CITEVAR restored originally established style". This summary was divided into three parts, each separated by a semicolon and each independently justified. In the first part, I was using the consensus discussion to justify the substitution of the cite templates and in the third part, using CITEVAR to justify the restoration of the originally established citation style.
  • In the discussion at Help talk:Citation Style 1, most editors seemed to be more concerned about abbreviated journal names rather than the Vancouver style author format. And as I stated there and above, I have no problem with full journal names.
  • The only references were I have replaced author first names with initials are references where there is also a pmid. PubMed generally also stores the full author names as supplied by the journals. Hence if it is absolutely required at some point to retrieve the full author names for use in Wikipedia citations, a bot could easily do this by calling PubMed E-utilities. Again, IMHO spelled out author first names are of limited if any value to readers. Also is it really necessary to clone external databases like PubMed within Wikipedia? Basic bibliographic information along with links to the corresponding entries in external citation databases as well as links to the original source if available should be sufficient.
Boghog (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Lancet seminar[edit]

doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(14)60164-1 JFW | T@lk 19:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Image added to stigma section[edit]

"Know AIDS - No AIDs" Roadside sign in Nubra Valley, Ladakh, India

I do not think this image adds anything. Others thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:22, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Nope, when I first saw it in the dif, My thoughts where "what is this? Is this aids denier propaganda?" So I think the image would cause confusion to any reader. 09:48, 22 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NathanWubs (talkcontribs)
Ditto. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I actually can't discern the meaning of the sign. Is it saying people with AIDS should not enter? Or promoting knowledge as a way to defeat AIDS? The words suggest the latter but the placement suggests the former.
If the image is to be used at all, perhaps at Discrimination against people with HIV/AIDS, it should be cropped so it's easier to read. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 14:27, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I found out the meaning. Its a slogan phrase of this group that is about spreading knowledge against aids. The slogan is suppose to say. Know aids for no aids. But I guess this sign is just not the best example. I still see no reason for inclusion though. If something would be included maybe it would be better to find a free imagine from the group that is the full sentence. NathanWubs (talk) 14:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the sign means that people who "know (the causes of) AIDS" will be able to take steps to take actions which result in them getting "no AIDS". This is not a sign about stigma, but a popular and positive health message which is posted throughout North India and can be read and understood even by people with limited ability to read English. I do not object to this picture being used in this article as an example of a health campaign in India but it should not be in the stigma section since it is an earnest and helpful message. Wordplay of this sort is ubiquitous in India and seems to be accepted locally, despite confusing non-Indians. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I added the image to HIV/AIDS in India. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)