Talk:Hades

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Needs cleaning up[edit]

This page needs cleaning up, there's some childish comments in it. 71.58.53.63 22:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Casing point: Black animals, such as sheep, were sacrificed to him, and the very vehemence of the rejection of human sacrifice expressed in myth suggests an unspoken memory of some distant past

WHAT??? So I don't like broccoli, does this suggest some deep love for broccoli in my past? Remove this line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 02:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


Hmmm, what is all this "NOTES FOR STUDENTS..."? Is this copied from somewhere, and if so, do we have permission to GFDL it? -Ato


I ::The article's page history is right here for anyone to see: click for it. A swift glance at it will show how the text evolved right here at Wikipedia, edit by edit. Newcomers are often surprised to see Wikipedia text, uncredited, elsewhere. That's copyleft for you... --Wetman (talk) 00:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Someone has changed one of Hades' siblings from Hestia to "GAYYYYYYY", and needs to be changed back. --Tetayu (talk) 15:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Had to change something, someone put "noobishworld" for underworld —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.64.187.3 (talk) 01:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Greek Hades and Roman Pluto[edit]

On another note, is the Greek Hades and Roman Pluto identical? This is what I mean this site is unsupported and any one can change the information. Were they originally the same entity? If not, were they two gods who were merged for convenience? When did the romans import Hades, if that was the case? No matter the answers, I think it would be appropriate to keep a separate Pluto article... -Ato

I realize its been a long time, but Hades and Pluto are quite different. When I have more time, I'll edit wiki to show this. For now, note that Hades is another name for the underworld, which Pluto is not. There are important differences, usually, between the Greek and the Roman gods. Anyway, my vote is for separate articles, without that pesky autoredirect. Atorpen 03:13 Jan 28, 2003 (UTC)

Christian Usage / Eschatology?[edit]

It's odd to see this entry is registered as part of category:Christian Eschatology. Perhaps someone didn't read what the entry is about. Wetman 02:55, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hades is the term sometimes used in the Bible for Hell - the exact phrase used in the Original language. If someone is studying Christian Eschatology (the study of what happens after this world has finished) then it is good for them to have a link to this page. One Salient Oversight 11:11, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If I were teaching Christian eschatology and my student confused Hades and hell, I wonder if I'd give a passing grade? Oh well... --Wetman 22:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hades is not used in the bible for "hell" in fact hades in the bible speaks of Earth, which was commonly called hades at the time. If hades were hell then how the hell could hades be cast into hell according to revelations anyway? --LucaviX 22:11, 4 September 2004 (UTC)
Well the first seven words were right. That's not quite a passing grade. --Wetman 03:02, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the King James Version misinterprets hades as hell more often that it uses it. Matthew 16:18 reads "...and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The original meaning of Ha'des is warped by the use of Hell in its place. Again at Luke 10:15 we find the King James Version in error when it reads "And thou, Caper'na-um, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell." We find the same is true at Matthew 11:23, Luke 16:23, Acts 2:31, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13-14. I also believe that the section entitled Biblical Use needs to be cleaned as some of the conotations refer to "Hell" leading me to believe the references were from the King James Version or an offshoot. If so a reference is clearly needed.--Bighairycamel 21:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Orpheus[edit]

"During the Rennisance period, this story was changed so that Orpheus got Eurydice back." I wonder what version is being recalled here. I didn't remove this text from the entry, but I doubt it's right. Anyone? --Wetman 22:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No response. This second-hand hearing by someone does not transmit useful information. Anyone who can identify this retelling might do better to insert it at [Eurydice], where it's less peripheral. --Wetman 17:57, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

stupid conformists

"Bajs?"[edit]

I removed the recently-added (User:193.215.223.5) name "Bajs" from the Roman synonyms for Hades. It also means "horseshit" somewhere or other. But not in Latin. --Wetman 09:32, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Bajs means poop in swedish. --84.217.39.202 (talk) 14:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

"Hades" a moon of Jupiter?[edit]

" Hades was an alternate name for Sinope, a moon of Jupiter." Did it ever appear in print under this name? --Wetman 00:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lena Hades[edit]

There are some refenrences to a russian artist by the name of Lena Hades throw around the text, is this subtle vandalism or should be put in a more proper format? <<please sign your contribution>>

It appears to be linkspam of some kind. I do not know how notable Lena Hades is, and I am assuming good faith, so I have simply reformatted as disambiguation. Same for the Lena Hades content at Also sprach Zarathustra. --Macrakis 20:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I think this is correct. Brothers of Hades where Zeus and Poseidon

Peter


To the Ancient Greeks, Hades is indeed a God, period.

The definition that Hades is an abode to the dead is not truly one by the Ancient Greeks. It seems to be written as such at the beginning of this article. That definition [the abode] is a later form of the meaning of Hades and done so by the Romans and by modern definition. That is not what the Ancient Greeks called the Underworld. As stated, the Underworld was divided and given appropriate names. Listed realms of Hades aside from Hades' House that IS associated with human death; Fields of Asphodel, Elysium (Elysian Fields), Pit of the Damned / Tartarean Pit (Tartaros by Plato), and Isle of the Blessed.

Erebos/Erebus literally means darkness, not dread. Erebos is brother and consort to Nyx (night). Their offspring include Aither (light), Hemera (day), and the Protogenos Eros (desire); Eros the elder, not the same as Eros Aphrodite's son. Erebos is not really a "euphonym" of Hades. Erebos is a Protogenos God. His name has been used for sects of the Underworld but as you can see, his names means darkness.

Tartaros is not really equivelent to the Christian version of Hell as it is commonly known, no fire and brimstone. Tartaros is a Protogenos God and is known for holding the Titans and monsters in a pit; the Tartarean Pit. By Plato, Tartaros is named as the pit for the damned; the Tartarean Pit and according to Plato this is where the 'damned' go.

Persephone was not merely tricked, she was granted to Hades by her Father Zeus.

Liz

Also, the reason he was called Pluto by the Romans (see article for details), which means Rich, was because he, being the ruler of everything under the surface of the Earth, was the god of all metals and valuables found there. This is not to be confused with Vulkan, who was the god of working metals. No, Hades merely owned everything that mankind had not yet brought to the surface. This includes gold, silver, bronze, diamonds, and everything else the Greeks considered valuable (that had to be dug up). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.17.58.235 (talk) 11:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Personality?[edit]

Dark and morbid personality? The Gods did not especially like him? From where does this come? Liz

Hades was never considered evil by the Greeks. It wasn't his place to bring the dead to the Underworld, nor to judge them. He was the man in charge in the same manner that Zeus ruled Olympus, but did not neccisarily run it. His "rape" of Persephone was a minor offence compared to some of the shinanigans the other gods got into. Zeus and Poseidon were known for commiting horrible things they did to people in the name of vengeance. Not so for Hades. The only time he ever punished someone was when he trapped Pirithous for trying to steal Persephone from him. He was by no means considered nice, but he was always fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.17.58.235 (talk) 11:05, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Vandal alert[edit]

There is a vandalism done under the section artistic representation which I cannot erase and do not find in the e it, please... --Francisco Valverde 13:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it Frank. Perhaps you're looking at a cached, outdated version? Could you describe the vandalism? Taco325i 22:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Yeah, you must be right. I think it was being edited at the same time. It was deleted anyway... --Francisco Valverde 05:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

WHY?[edit]

I cannot understand how is it that this article, in particular, is so many times vandalised. Just now user:A hebrew had just deleted all the External links section. What has Hades got to get so much vandalism? Other articles, which may treat of current affairs, I can understand, but don't accept. But this... --Francisco Valverde 18:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Because every school in the English-speaking world has a Greek myth section. Jkelly 23:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

whats thhere to learn in this artical , realy,?[edit]

this artical was verpenisy strang. It didnt really even talk about his family or how he became god of the under world. I got more info on other google web sites.why do you even have this?

  • You are free to contribute if you find that an article is poor, that way we can all make each article better. --Francisco Valverde 06:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Which Neopagans were you talking about, again?[edit]

Right. I don't know what this guy is talking about when he says "many neopagans believe... about Hades... afterlife... judged for sins..." Huh? If there's a single tenet on which "Neopagans" agree, it's that they don't agree at all about the afterlife or the ways in which me might or might not be held accountable for or sins. This sounds more Theistic than anything else, frankly. My worshi of Hades has absolutely nothing to do with this, nor have I ever heard anything like this before... Sure, I might have missed the memo, but there just couldn't be this much consensus on the story...

Hades is rarely represented in classical arts, save in depictions of the Rape of Persephone. This links to the Persephone myth, and a picture of "The Return of Persephone", no Rape of Persephone, so I'm taking the link out.

definition[edit]

"During the night before the first battle Hades put on his helmet and, being invisible, stole over to the Titans' camp and destroyed their weapons. The war lasted for ten years and ended with the victory of the younger gods." what does stole mean?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bud0011 (talkcontribs)

"Sneaked". Jkelly 02:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
if so, why not use sneaked? Bud0011 02:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Go right ahead and change it. Jkelly 03:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, right! and remember the past tense of "sneak" is "snuck". Does the hymn "Steal Away" connote shoplifting to this person, one wonders? --Wetman 17:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ha Ha :-D Btw, 'sneaked' is the correct past tense in British English. 81.129.23.204 (talk) 15:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Theseus and Pirithous[edit]

could this section be rewritten? i have trouble understanding it. (Anonymous)

purgatory and abraham's bosom[edit]

The line "Some view Abraham's Bosom as a separate location (although not the same as purgatory)." if factually incorrect and probably reflects merely the opinion of the author. There are many who DO view Abraham's bosom as identical with purgatory. Better just to leave the purgatory reference out, so I have deleted it.

Ah, where is Abraham's Bosom located indeed? The entire Church Chat section needs tuning up to concert pitch. Such a heartfelt personal essay would be impropved if the reader knew whose interpretations are being offered. --Wetman 17:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya i hate when that happens u know when the thing of the stuff that messes with the writning you just want to make that thing stop dosent that make u want to stop that thing, you know

CLEAN UP[edit]

Ya i hate when that happens u know when the thing of the stuff that messes with the writning you just want to make that thing stop dosent that make u want to stop that thing, you know

Underworld and underworld[edit]

Both "underworld" and "Underworld" are used in this article; it's inconsistent. Which version should be used? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sir Fastolfe (talkcontribs) 15:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hell?[edit]

I'm no expert on these issues, but it caught me that this is "Hell"? Why so? For example the Finnish tuonela is said to be similiar to this, but it's no hell, all people go there when they die. It might not be that happy place, but can you explain? Now when looking more closel y to the article, shouldn't Tartarus be in the "hell"-template? --Pudeo (Talk) 12:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Common Misconception[edit]

I was just wondering why there is so much content about the Ancient Greek Underworld in an article about the Olympian God, Hades?

The article mentions that Hades is sometimes used as a substitute for the underworld - but that should be it. The rest of the content should be moved to Greek Underworld. I'll do this myself at some point if no valid objections come forward. Krea 19:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

What is the 'misconception'? The article correctly states that Hades eventually came to mean the underworld, and all of that content belongs here, so please don't move it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia reader entering "Hades" expects a discussion of both the brother of Zeus and the Greek underworld. Putting oneself in the reader's place often avoids unnecessary errors. --Wetman 21:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, by "misconception", I meant that scholars regard Hades as the God and not the underworld. I accept that Hades has, in some quarters, come to mean underworld, but why not place the information about the Greek underworld in the Greek Underworld article? That is where it should rightly be. Keep a paragraph explaining that "Hades" has come to be synonymous with the underworld and put a link to that article, but the bulk of that content really shouldn't be discussed here should it? Krea 21:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In Homeric epic the underworld is called simply domos Aidou (the house of Hades). There was no great distinction drawn between the god and his domain. In fact "Hades of the underworld" rendered in Greek is redundant "Aides Aidou." The realm and god naturally belong together in the same article. Theranos 17:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree: there is a clear distinction between the "abode of Hades" and "Hades". Hades, in all ancient works (as far as I know) is a nomen distinct from his dominion. But this is not really the point: this is merely a matter of organization. Why is there a need for a Greek Underworld article, if all that information is placed here? Idealistically, if there are two distinct but related meanings and two different articles, why not place a distinct meaning in a distinct article and link the two? There is MUCH that can be said of both Hades and the underworld: placing both in the same article is therefore illogical. Krea 14:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

A description of the underworld called hades belongs on a page called Hades. "Greek underworld" is not the same thing as "hades." In early Greek myths, tartarus was also part of the underworld. "Hades" is that part of the Greek underworld where the dead abided. The term "Hades" has taken on a life of its own. It got picked up and used by Jews and Christians for their abode of the dead. Maybe there should be two pages "Hades (god)" and "Hades (underworld)." But I want someone who's looking for "Hades" to find an underworld. Jonathan Tweet 04:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

A solution is simply arranged for everyone, without suppressing any text: I have inserted the following:

Main article: Greek underworld

A better version might be:

For context, see Greek underworld.

Please edit at Greek underworld and continue to make sure a concise version of that article continues to appear here at Hades. Italicized context headings should be more common: they show how articles fit within broader articles, don't you think? --Wetman 04:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that that's as best as I'll get it; so fine. For the record, Jonathan, there is no place in the underworld called "Hades". "Hades" is a god. Period. There is no confusion about this (he is not a personification of a place, emotion, or concept of any form either). Tartarus is indeed a part of the underworld; so are the Elysian fields, the Islands of the Blest, the various rivers that flow from Tartarus - but "Hades" is not one of these places. It is true that the word has taken on a life of its own, however. But this was not due to an obscure reference or meaning: it is a mistake.
If I wanted to be a pain in the ass, I could have asked what sources you have that call the underworld "Hades": all respectable sources do not (Iliad, Odyssey etc). It is only the ill-informed "secondary" sources that do call the underworld "Hades" (such as the Bible, who also mistook the underworld for "Hell"!) Can anybody supply these sources for me? For if not, this article is not based on fact, as it should be, but on people's interpretations of facts (having said that, common interpretations of facts also deserve a place in an encyclopedia - but only in a secondary role to the facts themselves).
Lastly, If somebody wanted to look for the Greek underworld and typed "Hades", I fail to see how we will be denying them that information if we say that it is merely one click away in the Greek Underworld article. But, right or wrong, the majority viewpoint prevails; so I'll concede. Krea 19:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The development of an extended meaning of Hades is part of the history of ideas. Krea's sources and quotes documenting this shift in meaning certainly belong in the article Hades --Wetman 20:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I will make the Greek Underworld article a bit more respectable if I have the time, but I hope somebody else would also do so. I have one request for this article though: take, for example, the line
"Beyond lay Erebus, which could be taken for a euphonym of Hades, whose own name was dread."
Now, I'm not sure what this line means. It seems to refer to a place called "Hades" within the underworld - contradicting the sense that "Hades" was the entirety of the underworld. My request is this: that we not refer to everything as "Hades" if it can be avoided, or at least clarify what we mean when we use the word when the context doesn't. Parts of the article refer to the underworld as the "underworld" and others as "Hades". Thus, I propose that we call Hades (the Olympian God) "Hades" (since he has no other name - besides euphemisms), and the underworld as the "Underworld". I thought I'd ask before doing this myself, so does anybody object?
Also, when did anyone take Erebus as a euphonym for the underworld (or a part of the underworld)? Where's this from? I know that the Erebus article basically says the same thing; but where did they get that information from? Erebus is the gloom/darkness of the underworld. I don't recall ever reading that he was a place in the underworld - rather he's a property of the place. For example, if we take Eros to be love, then if I poetically say "mortals who perform good acts are rewarded by entering the place of Eros," that doesn't mean that Eros is a place in heaven - it means that heaven is a place of love. Can somebody put me out of my confusion please! Krea 18:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Its probably best to organise the Greek Underworld article as an evolving concept, e.g. the underworld of Virgil is very different from that of Homer. Homer almost always refers to the the "underworld" as domos Aïdou, or Aïdao domoisi (plural), the "Hadean realm/s." Erebeus, "Place of Dark Mists," appears only once or twice. In book 8 of the Iliad Homer refers to it as simply Aides when he says that Tartaros lies "tosson enerth' Aïdeô hoson ouranos est' apo gaiês," = as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth. --Theranos 19:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's probably the best way to view the development of that article. However, I can't go into that much detail myself because I certainly don't have the time to do that much research. That quote from Iliad is rather odd. Homer seems to be refering to Hesiod's earlier Theogony; but the details are different. The Perseus Digital Library (whose pages take some time to load; so for anybody reading this, be patient) translates Homer's quote just as you say (line 14 onwards), and has this to say for Theogony (line 720 onwards). I'm no classicist, but I'd be weary of that bit of text - it is certinly odd and probably should not be taken at face value so naïvely. As you say, everywhere else (as far as I know) he refers to the underworld as the "domain of hades". As for Erebus, the quotes from Iliad (under the heading: 3 from Homer, Iliad), at face value, seem to indicate that it is a place. But this is merely a misunderstanding of what Erebus is. Erebus is the gloom, the darkness of the underworld, the "place of dark mists" as you put it. Replace "Erebus" with "darkness of the underworld" or the like and the quotes make just as much sense as the assumption that Erebus is a physical location. However, I don't know of any source that explicitly states that it is a location in the underworld; so, again, where does that line I quoted above come from? Krea 22:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that Iliad text might well be a later interpolation, or else a stock epic phrase (since something similar appears in Hesiod), its difficult to say. Here is the LSJ entry on Erebos [1] at Perseus. The term is used occasionally in old epic. Anyway, I agree its worth expanding on a separate Greek Underworld article (although technically its not always an "under" world!) -- there is the far western land beyond Oceanus tradition as well. To start off with at least, I'll insert a few sub-headings, and label the article a stub. Theranos 14:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I hate to say this, but "Greek underworld" should be called "Hades (underworld)." WP:Naming_conventions says that articles should be named according to what's most recognizable. People refer to the Greek underworld as "Hades" more often than they refer to it as "the Greek underworld." This article should be "Hades (god)." And we should have a disambiguation page at "Hades" to direct people to one or the other article. Jonathan Tweet 16:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That Erebus entry is quite interesting. Maybe Erebus does refer to a place after all? I have reached the limits of what I can add to this now, and I would either need to ask somebody more knowledgful that myself, or do some research. For now, I'd prefer the former since what texts that I do know of don't really clarify the issue, and I have more urgent things to research. However, I don't know any classicists, and it might be a while before I bumb into one; so I'll just have to leave that one for now. You're correct, of course, about the word "underworld" itself being misleading - but I did not know of this land beyond Oceanus. All that I knew was that Oceanus surrounded the world (and a few other odd bits of facts); but, then again, the texts are ambiguous to my untrained eye.

I'd also hate to accept that, Jonathan! (Maybe "hate" is too strong, more "slightly annoyed"). Although at least it is more organized that what we have now. I'm not sure, but would there be an implicit assumption that the names themselves be correct and accurate in the first place? Although I guess that that must be weighed against just how commonly accepted the inaccurate name is - which is where dreaded subjectivity enters the argument! Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind as long as the hypothetical Hades (underworld) article would state that calling the underworld "Hades" was techically incorrect. Krea 18:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"Greek underworld" is a usefully vague term, since it can include ALL the realms of the dead and those beneath the earth which were not strictly included as parts of "Hades," i.e. Elysium, the Elysian Islands, and Tartarus. BTW In the Odyssey the Underworld is located beyond the Western horizon. Odysseus reaches it by ship from Circe's island, and later on, in the description of the ghosts of the suitors, although they are herded by Hermes beneath the earth, but pass beyond Oceanus and the gates of the (setting) Sun before reaching Hades. --Theranos 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's have "Hades (god)," "Hades (underworld)," and "Greek underworld." "Greek underworld" would be a summary, including references to tartarus, etc. "Hades (underworld)" would be just the regular old abode of the dead. Jonathan Tweet 15:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek for "Hades"[edit]

The lead of the article says: Hades (from Greek Άδης, Haidēs, originally Άιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs, probably from Indo-European *n̥-wid- 'unseen' ref Vyacheslav V. Ivanov, "Old Novgorodian Nevide, Russian nevidal’: Greek ἀίδηλος", citing Robert S.P. Beekes, "Hades and Elysion" in J. Jasanoff, et al., eds., Mír Curad: Studies in Honor of Calvert Watkins, 1998. Beekes shows that Thieme’s derivation from *som wid- is semantically untenable. Analogously, the Hebrew word for the abode of the dead, Sheol, also literally means "unseen". Plato's Cratylus discusses the etymology extensively, with the character of Socrates asserting that the god's name is not from aiedes (unseen) as commonly thought, but rather from "his knowledge (eidenai) of all noble things". /ref ).

I think the either the transliterations and the Greek must be wrong. We have Ά (alpha + acute) being transliterated as "hai" (in the first instance), "ha" (in the second) and "a" in the third. I don't know Ancient/Polytonic Greek (nor, for that matter, any other form), but I do know that in a diphthong/digraph, tone accents go on the second letter, so we obviously shouldn't have a tonos. I get the impression that the Greek shown is Modern monotonic Greek, even though the English comes from a much earlier form of Greek.

Would I be correct in assuming it should actually be:

Ancient Greek Transliteration Description
ᾍδης Hāidēs alpha + rough breathing + subscript iota + acute
Ἁίδης Hāidēs alpha + rough breathing; iota + acutue
Ἁΐδης Hāïdēs alpha + rough breathing; iota + diæresis + acute

I assume the accent (acute/tonos/oxia) is correct in all cases, but I have no knowledge.

I question the need for a distinct αι vs ᾳ; it's my understanding that the distinction (assuming long vowels) is strictly stylistic. So it really should be ᾍδηςἉΐδης, skipping Ἁίδης entirely as irrelevant.

Felix the Cassowary 12:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the current version is incorrect; it used to be correct, or at least more correct, but it has been wrong for about a year it seems! Your corrections aren't quite right, to go by the OED, which says "alpha+rough+acute+subscript ΔΗΣ (orig. alpha iota+rough+acute ΔΗΣ or alpha+smooth iota+acute+diaeresis ΔΗΣ)". In classical times, of course, no accents were written, so these forms would have been written ΑΔΗΣ or ΑΙΔΗΣ and in earlier times in some regions, would have been ΗΑΔΕΣ, ΗΑΙΔΕΣ, and ΑΙΔΕΣ -- but I don't know which of these forms are actually attested. The accents, subscripts, and breathings are later annotations to these forms to indicate the pronunciation or history. Just to complicate matters, subscripts on capital letters are often written as adscripts.... Whether the 1st and the 2nd forms are distinct falls in the domain of higher pedantry; and Wikipedia tends towards the more rather than less complete list.... There are a couple of arguments for keeping both: 1) perhaps the forms are distinct in epigraphy (does anyone here know?); 2) someone will add it back as "missing" no matter what you do (!). --Macrakis (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

--Macrakis (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

== Age order ==?*?*?

I have always and consistently heard that the age order for the brothers is Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. This article, however, claims Poseidon's the oldest, which I've never heard before. What's the deal? --63.139.170.232 (talk) 08:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I have taken over hades. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.142.218 (talk) 04:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC) loser

Error under 'Hades, God of the Underworld section[edit]

Under the section entitled "Hades, the God of the Underworld", I found this sentence: "Hades ruled the Underworld and therefore most often associated with death and was feared by men, but he was not Death itself — the actual embodiments of Death were Thanatos (violent death) and Hypnos (peaceful or natural death)." That doesn't sound right -- isn't Thanatos god of peaceful death and the Keres the goddesses of violent death? I read that from here: Theoi.com: The Keres I'd edit that myself, but the article appears to be protected from anonymous edits. 99.248.241.191 (talk) 19:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC) If my research serves correct, Thanatos was the personification of all death. When he cut the hair of the dead, their souls went to the underworld. Hypnos, however, was a sleep god. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.106.29 (talk) 00:50, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Theoi.com can be useful but if you've concerns over the article's accuracy, you'd best check its assertions against a peer-reviewed, scholarly source. Here's a preview of Hard's 2003 revision of H. J. Rose's Handbook of Greek Mythology (Routledge); on p. 26 ff you'll find scholarly material on Thanatos, Hypnos, Keres and their relationships. Haploidavey (talk) 18:52, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Resurrected Headers[edit]

I gave new life to headers of the first couple of paragraphs, as they were not headed. This comment added as a place to sign in.Ratagonia (talk) 03:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Citations please[edit]

I would like citations on where you got the symbols that represent Hades, because my teacher banned direct use of wikipedia due to the potential for vandalism. But who would honestly vandalise Hades.Tailsfan2 (talk) 15:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox request[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}} Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed.

I suggest we add a:

Template:Infobox Greek deity

To Hades, just to remain consistent with all the other pages. I think it's a good thing to have if people just want to skim through the article without really reading the text. (God knows I've done that enough for homework) Or as simple links to other gods.

It also looks nice, aww Aesthetics.

Edit request rejected for failing to provide specific text that should be inserted into the article. Nonetheless, this is an excellent idea! Please actually create an infobox on the talk page and reinstate the {{editsemiprotected}} request! 71.41.210.146 (talk) 03:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


Hades and Dionysus[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}}

I suggest that this be added to the section 'God of the Underworld':

The philosopher Heraclitus declared that Hades and Dionysus are the same god. Amongst other evidence Carl Kerenyi notes that the grieving goddess Demeter refused to drink wine, which is the gift of Dionysus, after Persephone's abduction because of this association, and suggests that Hades may in fact have been a 'cover name' for the underworld Dionysus (Kerenyi 1967, p.40). Furthermore he suggests that this dual identity may have been familiar to those who came into contact with the Mysteries (Kerenyi 1976, p.240). One of the epithets of Dionysus was "Chthonios", meaning "the subterranean" (Kerenyi 1976, p.83).

Sources: Kerenyi, C. (1967). Eleusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-691-01915-0

Kerenyi, C. (1976). Dionysos: Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-691-02915-6


Also I nominate this for removal:

In the Greek version of an obscure Judaeo-Christian work known as 3 Baruch (never considered canonical by any known group), Hades is said to be a dark, serpent-like monster or dragon who drinks a cubit of water from the sea every day, and is 200 plethra (20,200 English feet, or nearly four miles) in length.

It's at the end of the God of the Underworld section and seems very out of place, as it is unrelated to Hades as characterised by any known mythology. --Kavita9 (talk) 03:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Both Yes check.svg Done fahadsadah (talk,contribs) 12:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem with the addition, but I object to the complete removal of the allusion to Hades (the monster) in 3 Baruch. This is a reference to a distinct tradition that is encyclopedic and there seems to be no better place to put it, but it should certainly be noted somewhere. 70.105.26.147 (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

birth order[edit]

It was my understanding from every recounting of the Greek pantheon I have seen that of the three sons of Cronus Hades was the eldest and Zeus the youngest, with Poseidon in the middle. This was corroborated by the recent History Channel program "Clash of the Gods", an episode of which was dedicated to Hades, and by a majority of internet sources I referenced, so I have edited the article accordingly. [2][3][4][5] SpudHawg948 (talk) 11:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Hades In Other Religions[edit]

That Should Be Removed! Hades Does Not Exist In Judeo Christian Nor In Any Other Religion Other Than Greek! Something. And The Jews Never Believed In Hades. So That Should Be Deleted!24.7.204.215 (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The Jewish Septaugint used the word 'Hades' as the nearest greek word for Sheol. The early Christians used it too. They meant something very different to the greek god, underworld etc, but they certainly used the word.81.129.23.204 (talk) 15:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

In Christian Theology Hades Refers To Judgment Day[edit]

That should Be Removed For It's Not, Hades does not exist in Christianity, Really! So That Should Be Removed!24.7.204.215 (talk) 21:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hades is the ruler of the underworld.His family members are Zeuse(brother) ruler of the sky,Posedon (brother) ruler of the sea.His love of his life is Persephone.He has long hair and wears a robe and has a invisible helmet.He has a three headed dog named Cerberus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.20.239.101 (talk) 23:43, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Hades is mentioned throughout the New Testament. Don't wig just because there are multiple references to this word. The sections are pretty accurate if you wish to look up the original Greek texts and see for yourself. Johncab593 (talk) 03:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You are sincerely telling the truth by when you stated that Hades is not the center of christianity. Christians do believe that Hades does exist, along with Death as well (Death with a capital "D"). The truth about Death and Hades that exist from Jesus Christ from and for the person and the people searching for that one true doctrine, is that when the person and the people believe that Death and Hades will, at one point in the future, be put in to the lake of fire because Death and Hades have already been pre-judged by God that way, then the person is believing in the truth for this truth is given to them from within Jesus Christ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannyclark1973 (talkcontribs) 14:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Minthe[edit]

There is an old myth where Minthe was transformed not by Persephone but by Demeter.

"Mint (Mintha), men say, was once a maid beneath the earth, a Nymphe of Kokytos, and she lay in the bed of Aidoneus; but when he raped the maid Persephone from the Aitnaian hill [Mount Aitna in Sicily], then she complained loudly with overweening words and raved foolishly for jealousy, and Demeter in anger trampled upon her with her feet and destroyed her. For she had said that she was nobler of form and more excellent in beauty than dark-eyed Persephone and she boasted that Aidoneus would return to her and banish the other from his halls: such infatuation leapt upon her tongue. And from the earth spray the weak herb that bears her name." - Oppian, Halieutica 3.485

From: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheMinthe.html

  • Aidoneus is a name for Hades.

Gigei (talk) 12:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Hades is the english given name of Hades and so Aidoneus is not the english given name of Hades. The name of Hades may appear in other languages as extactly typed as "Hades", but that exactly typed name of "Hades" is not exactly typed that way for all the languages on earth. It is better for you to find out where the "sounding name" of "Aidoneus" is languaged from before making it look like the englishly given name of Hades is also the englishly given name of Aidoneus too!!! Let's not give Hades any more english names shall we!!?

Remove the below?[edit]

I am wondering if all of the below rant ought to be removed per WP:SOAP. His only point about the article is to take issue with the infobox line reading "God of the Underworld", but his reasoning is faulty. Our article text calls him "god of the underworld" (small letters) as this is the correct noun used in English to refer to polytheistic deities, or gods, such as Hades. The etymology of "god" is from Germanic pagan beliefs and is not even considered the name of the Judaeo-Christian God, except in English. I'm not sure "god of the underworld" would look right in the infobox with lowercase letters, just because it is capitalised for style is a pretty silly reason to take offense, since no one is seriously liable to confuse Hades and God as a result of this. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

God of the dead[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}} In Hades' title box it should be noted that he is the god of Death (not just underworld) or aleast the dead, so it should read "God of the Underworld, Death, and Riches." 24.180.173.157 (talk) 01:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done Source? About.com says he is NOT the god of death [6] CTJF83 pride 01:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
It does say he is the god of the dead though. 24.180.173.157 (talk) 04:47, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Vivasvan Rahu Bhūmi Naraka Ananta Garbhodaksayi VishnuClick!
Click! Vivasvan, Rahu, Bhūmi, Naraka, Ananta, Garbhodaksayi Vishnu

Hades children[edit]

Can not anyone write about hades daughter? and that her name is Macraia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by SabNik (talkcontribs) 17:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

See Macaria for sources to check info here. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

merge with Pluto[edit]

It appears that Hades and Pluto were the same deity from the beginning and not seperate deities that were associated though interpretatio romana. Pluto (or Pluton) was just another name the Greeks used for Hades (feeling it was less frightening) and when the Romans adopted the Greek gods, they exclusively called him that. This is similar to Dionysis and Bacchus and we don't have a seperate article for the latter. 24.180.173.157 (talk) 00:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but you don't have consensus for the redirect. We can't use what happens in one article to justify what happens in another. As to Bacchus and Dionysus, we'd benefit from separate articles. Below, I've posted a copy of my response, made on your talk page. As the redirect caused loss of article material formerly under Pluto (mythology), I'll restore it by reverting; unless you do it first.
Couple of things to consider: assuming you'd had consensus, did you merge the articles correctly? What happened to the content and history of Pluto (mythology) when you redirected? Just as importantly (from my point of view), Roman and Greek religion is much more than names, identities and mythologies; it's also socio-political context. Roman cults are not "the same as" Greek, even for deities with the same name; certainly not in the archaic and Republican eras though under Empire forms of univeral cult emerge. And even these have strong regional variation. Haploidavey (talk) 01:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
Questions pertaining to distinctions between Hades and Plouton (Pluto) have been addressed in a revision of the article Pluto (mythology). Cynwolfe (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protection?[edit]

The last 50 edits have resulted in almost no change, but lots of work for alert adults. Can this much-damaged article get some protection?--Wetman (talk) 20:58, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Many more such edits of late, so I'll ask for semi-protection. Haploidavey (talk) 23:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Grim Reaper[edit]

I changed "Hades is often mistaken for the Grim Reaper" to "Hades is often mistaken for the personification of death". I believe that's probably what whoever wrote that sentence was trying to convey, not that he is *literally* mistaken for the depiction of death as a reaper holding a scythe. The "Grim Reaper" depiction of course came many centuries later. But the point is that even in Ancient Greek times, Hades was not "death personified" -- that was Thanatos, as mentioned later in the article. -- Tim314 (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Maybe the person meant in popular culture -Angel David (talk) 11:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Children = Zagreus?[edit]

Zagreus was the son of Zeus and Demeter or Persephone hence the "z" and "eus." He was not the son of Hades. -Angel David (talk) 11:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I doubt your etymology, but I think you're right about the parents of Zagreus, who if I'm not mistaken is mainly a figure of the mystery religions (where Hades is far more likely to refer to the place, not the deity). I've just spent a couple of months off and on revising Pluto (mythology), and I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on what lies behind this — perhaps the figure of Zeus Chthonios. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Orpheus and Eurydice[edit]

Can anyone produce an ancient source that names the ruler of the underworld as Hades in the Orpheus and Eurydice tale? I've only been able to find him named as Plouton. Keep in mind that English translators often regard the two names as interchangeable, and translate Hades as Pluto and vice versa. There are in fact clear patterns of usage of the names. Plouton doesn't appear in Greek literature before the Athenian playwrights of the Classical era (that is, not in Homer, Hesiod, or the Archaic lyric poets). In Orphic texts and inscriptions associated with the mystery religions, Hades is always the place, and Plouton always the consort of Persephone. It seems likely, therefore, that in the Orpheus tale, Hades would be the place, and Pluto the king. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:09, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

On second thought, I deleted this unsourced section. It also stated that "Hades showed mercy only once," which is untrue, as the tales of Protesilaus and Alcestis show. Orpheus probably needs to be in the article, but presented with sources. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources missing[edit]

This article needs a few sources. Let me list two:

1. "One ancient source says that he possessed the Cap of invisibility."

Which one?

2. "Another version is that she was metamorphosed by Persephone into a white poplar tree while standing by the pool of Memory."

What's the source for this version?

ICE77 (talk) 03:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

These are both instances where the sources name the ruler of the underworld as Pluto, not Hades. In developing the article on Pluto, I've become convinced that it's useful and informative to distinguish between the two, but sometimes difficult if you're working only in English, as translators will use the two names interchangeably. I found that after the influence of the Eleusinian Mysteries reached a certain point (sometime in the 5th century BC), it becomes uncommon to find Hades as the name of the god; it's almost always used for the name of the underworld as a place, beginning in the Classical period with the Greek dramatists and then Plato. I deleted the reference to Leukê, which seems to appear only in a Latin source and where the name is given as Pluto. See also Pluto (mythology)#The helmet of invisibility. Cynwolfe (talk) 04:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

My questions were about where that information is found: Homer, Pausanias, Hesiod? That's what I meant.

ICE77 (talk) 01:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was meaning to say that if you're interest in tracking down the sources see the section on the helmet in the Pluto article, as linked above. The story of Leuca is from Servius's commentary on Vergil; see Leuce (mythology) for the notes. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Coins[edit]

Where did the Greeks put the coins to pay Charon? In the article it says in the mouth, but I thought it was on the eyes... VenomousConcept (talk) 11:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

This is covered in detail at Charon's obol (which is linked from this article). Haploidavey (talk) 11:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Heracles/Hercules Section[edit]

Hey, I was checking out the Hercules section, and it uses Hades alot. I think sometimes it means the person, like Hades allowing Hercules to borrow Cerberus, and then the Underworld, as Hercules leading Cerberus out of a Greek God is just weird. Could somebody replace Hades the place with The Underworld instead? --JezzDawga (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

hows about its alls[edit]

so, I jussted woldanted tol sayyy hai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.7.90 (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Agesander (Hades)[edit]

Could go into a section about various names of Hades. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 11:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That seems a reasonable suggestion. Haploidavey (talk) 11:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Agree. I think you might be safe in going ahead with the merge. Be sure to request merge history, since that little Agesander article did have a certain amount of care expended on it. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Ok, done. Two questions left: 1) do I now AfD Agesander (Hades)? I redirected it here, but that redirect has little sense since it's an orphan (I found it through Category:Orphaned articles, which I was cleaning up). 2) Some info from the Cult subsection may have to be moved to the "Names and epiphets" subsection, but when I tried this, I was lacking a source for the implicit claim that Hades' name was taboo among the Greeks. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 21:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
"Taboo" is probably too strong; "Hades" itself seems to be a kind of euphemism, understood (as by Plato) as the "hidden one". You don't want to delete the redirect, since it is a name for Hades that someone might be looking up. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
(e/c) It seems a history merge is impractical, because the articles have developed in parallel rather than in tandem; but an explanatory line can be put into the history. I agree that "Agesander (Hades)" - even if a formerly orphaned article - isn't an entirely unlikely search term. And the redirect preserves the history of the smaller, merged article. Agreed, too, on Hades as possible euphemism. Haploidavey (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

REVELATION 20 and the LAKE of FIRE[edit]

Under the section Judeo-Christian Hades- Rev 20:13-14 is referred to in a way that leads the reader to believe that the dead will not be thrown into the Lake of fire. Earlier in the passage the story of Lazarus and Dives (Luke 16:19-31) is used to prove the point that Hades is not considered a place of torment in Christianity. Verse 13 of Revelation does say that the dead are "given up" by the sea, death, and Hades. Verse 13 goes on to say that each of the dead were judged for their deeds. And yes, verse 14 does say that death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The point trying to be made in this section is that the dead were no longer part of death or Hades and therefore received no torment. However, this is not the whole story. The previous and following verses clarify this. Therefore Rev 20:13-14 has been taken out of context. Verse 12 speaks of all the dead standing before the throne, books are opened where everything has been recorded. The dead are/were judged. Verse 13 is not about chronological order but rather en extension of vs. 12, reiterating how all the dead had been "given up" - made to stand before the throne and restates that all were judged. Verse 14 says that death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire - which is the second death. Verse 15 is the text that has been ignored in this section concerning Judeo-Christian Hades. In vs 15 it says that anyone whose name was not in the Book of Life was thrown into the Lake of Fire. Hence, the dead also face the Lake of Fire that death and Hades faced. Many see Revelation as an allegory and Hades as allegorical rather than a literal place of torment. In any case, the dead whose names are not in the Book of Life are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire where death and Hades also receive their punishment. The Judeo-Christian Hades section is inaccurate.K.J.Grey (talk) 05:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)K.J.Grey

Genealogy Section[edit]

I'm not sure why there are black bars that obscure some of the names in the Genealogy Section of the article. Silenceatl (talk) 13:46, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Luke 16[edit]

undid this, ... given that mortalists have been explaining the rich man and Lazarus as a parable since the 17th Century we ought to be able to show this from print sources rather than websites. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

and removed again In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree basically that maybe better sources are desirable, but there is such a thing as being too over-scrupulous disregarding contextual points. The point of the statements in the paragraph were what SOME PROFESSED CHRISTIANS BELIEVE AND TEACH about soul mortality and the "rich man and Lazarus" being a parable and not a true historical account...and that those are the views given. They are sources that are arguably "reliable" in giving their point of view in that specific belief and context. Meaning that those websites that are being challenged and removed were put together by people IN THE THEOLOGICAL FIELD...and were not slapped together by some guy who runs a pizza place down the street. There are degrees of "reliability". My position is that those refs that you removed were ok enough in proving the point that some Christians and theologians believe and teach what is being stated in the paragraph in the article. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 21:10, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2014[edit]

Hades' name in Roman Mythology was Pluto. Orcus was the god of punishment for broken oaths (who lived in the Underworld) and Dis Pater was the former leader of the Underworld, who was subdued by Pluto/Hades. 179.177.177.230 (talk) 17:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as this is almost exactly what the article already states:-
Later, the Greeks started referring to the god as Plouton (see below), which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 17:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)