Talk:Argentina v England (1986)

Archives

• Archived talk from the Hand of God goal article
• Archived talk from the Goal of the century article

Merge suggestion

It seems slightly odd that we should have two articles on goals from one match (Hand of God goal and Goal of the Century). Why not create a single article for the game under the title Argentina v England (1986)? It would provide a more detailed overview of the goals in the context of each other, and of the Falklands War. Both articles are smallish and fairly poorly referenced at the moment - one nice merged article on the game could be really good. --Pretty Green (talk) 10:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Even though you might be right about the Hand of God goal, the Goal of the century is not about a single goal that was scored during this match; it was a contest held by FIFA, won by one of the goals of this match.

I think it should have it's own article, as other matches (and players) will definitelly point to its content. Mariano(t/c) 09:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, that did occur to me, but I wonder how the notable the contest is? It was an internet poll, admmitedly with an award given at the end of it, but still nothing more. Very few pages link to Goal of the Century and I reckon that most if not all of these refer to the Maradonna goal. --Pretty Green (talk) 16:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I reckon that only two articles link to Goal of the Century which don't refer to the Maradonna goal. --Pretty Green (talk) 16:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

That line of thought would take the goal's section to Maradona's article, not here. How many articles refer to the Goal of the century that don't make reference to this match? Mariano(t/c) 08:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Well the goal of the century was part of the match. I (think) the redirect could be altered to Argentina v England (1986)#Second Half, where goal of the century is fairly prominent, if that is an improvement. As for the Maradona article - there is not a 'goals' section to redirect to. Pretty Green (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Batista

Batista was not DF, Argentina formation was : pumpido - cucciufo,brown,ruggeri - giusti, enrique, batista, olarticoecha - maradona,burru - valdano (3-4-2-1) --Jor70 (talk) 21:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

OK - are you saying that this [1] is an accurate descritpion of positions then? --Pretty Green (talk) 09:25, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

sourced! ;-) Yes, that's better --Jor70 (talk) 19:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The goal is now inevitably brought up for discussion whenever England play Argentina, or when Maradona is associated with British football

The term 'British' is chosen very deliberately in this sentence and is justified, I think, for the following reasons:

• The term states 'whenever England play Argentina, or when Maradona is associated with British football' - specifically, then, differentiating between the England team/English football and the UK as a whole
• The point being made is that Maradona doesn't even have to be playing England for this stuff to be mentioned [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] all discuss the Hand of God in relation to the recent Scotland v Argentina game: the Times and the Sun even discuss it in relation to Scotland - "I'm going to a country where they adore me because of the goal against the English", to quote Maradona in The Sun.
• And Scottish media discuss it as well : Daily Record, Edinburgh News, The Herald
• Essentially, then, the sentence emphasises the wider impact throughout the UK that this goal has had. Sure, it's not as big a thing in Scotland as in England - why would it be - but to say it is ignored is wrong. --Pretty Green (talk) 09:42, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Only because the British media is dominated by the English and the English still whine incessantly about it 23 years after the event. As far as the Scots are concerned, we a) don't give a stuff and b) can't believe you still whine about it. It would be more accurate to state the English dominated media rakes it up whenever Maradonna is mentioned, while the Scots and Welsh look on in bemusement and a touch of Schadenfreude. It only matters in England and that sentence doesn't reflect that. Justin talk 10:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

What about the comments from the Scottish newspapers? And my argument that the goal is so notorious in England that he doesn't even have to be involved with England for the goal to raise? Please discuss my arguments rather than dismissing them as 'NPOV'. If you can persuade me otherwise, then that is fine, but at the moment the comment is reasonable. I'm not trying to suggest that the English view = British view, far from it Pretty Green (talk) 11:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

A thought - if the sentence were changed to one the following:

• The goal is now inevitably brought up for discussion in British (note - see refs above from Daily Record, The Herald etc) media whenever England play Argentina, or when Maradona is associated with British football
• The goal is now inevitably brought up for discussion in England whenever the England national team play Argentina, or when Maradona is associated with British football --Pretty Green (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Essentially, then, the sentence emphasises the wider impact throughout the UK that this goal has had. To quote your own words, except that it has had no impact whatsoever in Scotland or Scottish football. It was raked up by the English dominated media and it is only brought up because British media is dominated by England. This doesn't reflect any impact on football but a media dominated by English interests. This only matters to the English and to be blunt we don't care. To quote one of your references:

Maradona, now the Argentine team's national coach, was welcomed by Scots fans at Glasgow Airport in November when he arrived with his squad to play Scotland at Hampden.

Suggestion: The goal is frequently mentioned in the British media due its domination by English interests whenever England play Argentina, or when Maradona is associated with British football. However, it has had no impact on the other national teams within the UK, indeed Maradona received a rapturous welcome when Argentina played Scotland in an International Challenge game in November 2008. Justin talk 12:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well I could argue there that we are introducing presumptions in that sentence- the dominance the English of British media. I've no doubt this is true, but where is the evidence that this dominance then causes the extended Maradona coverage? In essence, we're speculating about something reasonable, but not verifiable (that English dominance of the media results in references to the HoG goal when Scotland play Argentina). I would argue too, that my use of Scottish-only media somewhat disproves your point about zero impact in Scotland - or are you claiming that the Record is English dominated? I'm not saying its as important - again, why should it be - but it would be untrue to say it has no impact, even if the only impact is Schadenfreude and as another sore point to draw upon in England/Scotland banter (say, equivalent to the "Scotland never progressing past the first round of a World Cup" fact is in England?) Again, I suggest "The goal is now inevitably brought up for discussion in England whenever the England national team play Argentina, or when Maradona is associated with British football". It makes clear that it is brought up in England but points out that it doesn't even need Eng v Arg to happen for the media to go on about it. --Pretty Green (talk) 13:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The two Scottish articles discuss the furore in England and reflect that the Scots don't give a stuff about it, even to the point of the enthusiastic welcome Maradona got in Scotland. So they don't reflect your point but do in fact re-inforce the point I'm making. I'd accept the sentence provided that something is added to reflect it doesn't impact on the other home teams. Justin talk 13:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

But surely the enthusiastic welcome is, in part, related to Maradona's two goals (the first, unfair, the second, humiliating) against England? From the Daily Record: "He [Maradona] has acknowledged that Scots and Argentinians are united by the famous Hand of God incident when he scored against England Later in the same match, he scored one of the best goals the World Cup has ever seen to knock the Auld Enemy out of Mexico 86." --Pretty Green (talk) 15:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Or perhaps because Maradona is acknowledged as one the world's greatest footballers just about everywhere else in the world, that just might go someway toward explaining it! Every tried thinking about how other people might perceive it? Justin talk 20:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Anyone else allowed in? I personally dislike the word inevitable: I'd like to think that it is possible that there might be a journalist somewhere in the UK of high enough standard to avoid the temptation to fall back on such tired old anecdotes, and able to consider such a prestigious career other than in the light of one split second decision. Apart from that, maybe a completely fresh sentence is the way to find compromise. Something like "Many elements of the British press refer to the incident even when discussing other elements of Maradona's career or matches of the Argentine team." might be a way forward; it allows readers to infer the innocence of the charge of some of the press, refers to can account for positive or negative recollections of the event (although so can the current phrasing, which rather undermines Justin's point), and is less specific as to the triggers of such raking over of old coals. Kevin McE (talk) 20:58, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Course you're allowed in! And you make some good points. Change British for English and you could be there. Thanks, a fresh perspective helps sometimes. Justin talk 22:13, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't really asking permission :) I don't think the need to replace British by English is at all proven. The articles from the Herald/Evening News/Herald that have been cited prove that it would be true to say "Many elements of the Scottish press refer to the incident even when discussing other elements of Maradona's career or matches of the Argentine team."

I just wish that the English fans were consistent enough about their hatred of goals scored with the hand to admit that if it weren't for Dennis Wise punching the ball past a Turkish goalie in Izmir, they wouldn't have qualified for Euro 1992. Kevin McE (talk) 22:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

ROTLMAO, got to admit you've got a point there! Seriously the only point I've tried to make is that is doesn't affect Scottish football its an English hangup. We wouldn't mention it all were it not for the fact that the English whine about it.  ;o) Justin talk 22:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well it's also annoying, quite frankly Justin, for you to presume that my intentions behind the sentence are to suggest that it's important to everyone because its important to England. Of course Maradona is welcomed to Scotland because he's one of the world's greatest players - I said "in part, related to Maradona's two goals" precisely for that readon. I feel as if you're not reading my arguments - you're presuming I'm making certain arguments for certain reasons when I'm not. All the sentence is intended to do is to indicate that any association of Maradona with the British game - and I take the recent Sco v Arg match and the references provided above as validating the word British - brings reference to the HoG goal and this match in general. No claims at all are being made about the goal's importance to the Scots, other than as a funny incident that hurt a rival team - something remembered but not with excessive importance. Which I think is something we agree on, with the very fact you say that We wouldn't mention it all were it not for the fact that the English whine about it indicating that it is mentioned.

As for Kevin's suggestion - yup, I think you're probably correct on 'inevitably' and I think your sentence follows a decent structure, though perhaps it could be simplified - "The goal is brought up regularly in the British media whenever Maradona and his career are being discussed"? I'm too young to remember that Wise goal you refer to, but I'm sure most of our fans would quietly admit that certain goals in our history (ahem) may not have technically been goals ;). Pretty Green (talk) 22:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Kevin, no problem with your edit. Justin talk 20:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that's a good compromise. --Pretty Green (talk) 16:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It gets brought up with overtones that don't relate more than marginally to football either. Someone commented in a UK newspaper that Maradona "comes out of a culture where a man who sticks to fair play and accepts defeat rather than cheat his way to victory is not seen as a real man". Strausszek (talk) 01:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

NPOV Tag

Match is only of relevance to English football, its irrelevant to Scottish football. Its only raised in Scotland as the English still whine about it. Justin talk 10:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've reverted to your version without the Tag whilst we discuss this, though I don't think an NPOV tag is warranted for an article with one disputed sentence. Though its a small point I am rather hurt that you chose to use such tags rather than engaging in a discussion. My intention is not to create a divisive article. --Pretty Green (talk) 11:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Wonderful, happy to talk about it. Ever thought of just how annoying it is for people to assume British = English, or for the media to forget that the world doesn't revolve around England. Truly the Scots do not give a stuff about a game between England and Argentina. The tag was only added because of your insistence that misrepresented it as an issue for British football. Britain is not just England. Justin talk 11:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Please, check my arguments above - that was never my intention. I was aware of this danger when writing it, but I felt that the points above justified this sentence. I'm not some ignorant English moron. --Pretty Green (talk) 11:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, on a more guideline-view point, wouldn't Template:POV-statement be more appropriate? It was not the article as a whole that was being objected to, but one sentence. Pretty Green (talk) 11:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Academic as the tag has been removed. And where did I say you were an ignorant English moron? You wouldn't be the first Englishman to do it subcounciously. If you were aware of the danger, once it was construed that the way the correct response would have been to explain rather than simply revert. Justin talk 13:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but your comments have given that impression; I apologise if that was not your intention. As for the revert, my general approach in such situations is - rv back once with a brief explanation; then if a revert occurs gain, rv back with a longer explanation on talk and then let the situation come to discussion, which I don't think is unreasonable. --Pretty Green (talk) 22:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Name of Article

Would it not be more customary for the "v" to be replaced with "vs." in the name of the article, because "v" tends to indicate some kind of legal proceeding. --82.13.233.26 (talk) 14:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Nope, v. is just more typical of British usage and vs. is more typical of American usage, e.g. Kramer vs. Kramer. Salopian (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

1980 Diego's Goal

Giving the fact we havent any more the hand of God goal article I think would be interesting to add some of its history as what his brother told him after the 1980 goal . many references: he recalled a similar move in England, some years before, when he finished that way and his brother had told him that he should have Gambeteado the goalkeeper as well. --Jor70 (talk) 22:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

We had this discussion on the old Hand of God page, and there was little support there for suggesting any meaningful link. Kevin McE (talk) 11:55, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I cant find the referred discussion [7] [8] . There are plenty of references about this event and I think is notable enough to merit a small mention --Jor70 (talk) 17:50, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Heard on the BBC

Just heard this on BBC World News after the 2-2 goal missed by the referees in the England-Germany game, June 2010. Two English sports journalists:

Man 1: "....but we need guys like Maradona to keep the mystique of the game alive. He is truly a hero in my book, he can do no wrong, and if he did that dramatic hand-of-God goal, that's a mythic moment! Where would we be without Maradona?"

Man 2 (smiling): There's a few of us who would have preferred never to have heard of the hand of God.

D Strausszek (talk) 00:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Maradona's quote

The link to the Maradona's quote is this

http://www.rediff.com/sports/football/2002/may/30mara.htm

I don't know how to put links...;) Bye

Y Done Kevin McE (talk) 10:44, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

See the Maradona page

See the Talk page of the article on Maradona. It is noted that a photo apparently showing Maradona touching the ball seems to be a Photoshopped fake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 14:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)