Talk:Haplogroup R-M207

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Old Stuff[edit]

I change north america for parts of the americas in places were the r1b halogroup is common are you forgetting that Argentina and Uruguay are 90% Galician (nothern spanish) basques, italian and british??? which means that most of the population come from the paces where this halogroup is almost exclusive.

For such reasons, distributions should be taken from and named after ethnic gruops and NOT REGIONS. HJJHolm (talk) 06:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm rolling back the merger.

Putting R1a1 and R1b and R2 all in this article makes it too long and unwieldy.

The previous structure was better. -- Jheald 19:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC).

feel free to branch back out per WP:SS, but that's no reason to revert; I merged a couple of stubs, it is better to discuss them centrally. The only article developed enough for branching out so far is R1a1. dab () 21:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
There is substantially different genetic history associated with R1a1, R1b and R2. I don't see what your problem is with separate articles, nor why you want to force the whole lot in here.
WP gains, where appropriate, from having short articles focussed on different subjects. Jheald 21:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC).

So, you want to scramble together all the links and external references which were separately relevant for the individual subgroups, all together into one heap? Why???

I appreciate the good material and edits you've been adding to Wikipedia. But, why not contribute the material you want to contribute to the separate R1a1 R1b and R2 pages? Jheald 21:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

You see, I am not just merging here, I am sifting through the material for inaccuracies and mistakes. I don't want to do that on four articles simultaneously. I have no objection to keeping separate {{main}} articles for the subclades, but apart from R1a1, there is just not enough material so far to warrant that. There is no point in having a Haplogroup R1b1c1 (Y-DNA) telling us that this is a subclade of Haplogroup R1b1c (Y-DNA) and nothing else. I admit, again, that we seem to have enough material on R1a1 to warrant its own article. Possibly also R1b. I have no objection to keeping those. That doesn't mean that this article should be bombed back to stub status. Scattered sub-articles make a comparative discussion impossible. dab () 21:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

no, no, I don't want to throw the references into one heap. I am working on it, ok? {{inuse}}? Again, I don't object to the re-creation of the sub-articles, just leave me in peace on this central one for a minute. dab () 21:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I am done for now; I do not find the article unwieldy, to the contrary, it has the perfect size for an overview of the group. I have no idea what "many within the of the sept associated with Niall of the Nine Hostages" is supposed to mean, and whatever it is, it is unsourced, but I left it standing for now. dab () 22:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Proto indo-europeans are persons of J haplotype linked via the Nostratic languages family!??[edit]

We know that:

You know nothing. Wiki talk is not the place to list half books of half understood theories. HJJHolm (talk) 06:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

First of all forgive your brother for my bad english and thank you for this article

-R1 haplogroup are "paleolithic"haplotypes(0)

-The originel language of persons of R1 haplogroup is linked with Basque and dont has any link with indo-european languages(1)

-Semitic and indo-european languages are linked via the nostratic(2)languages theory and are all languages of neolithic timed origin(3)

-The haplogroup J is very present among Indians,Persians,Greeks,Indians(4)

-The linguistic aryanisation of india for example is only a linguistic process,in fact we have aryanic speaking populations as much racially different as Sindhis and Danish(5)

-Carleton Coon says: Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages.5 The plants and animals on which the economy of the early Indo-European speakers was based were referred to in words derived mainly from element B. Copper and gold were known, and the words for these commodities come from Mesopotamia.(6)

The sources are below



(2) Please note that these words are not borrowings but commun nostratic roots


























































Sound change o=>a et j=>g







g=>q et l=>r

Agro=>Haql (g<=>q)(r<=<l)

Ble=>Burr (r<=>l)


The scheme on The Tower of Babel shows yet another approach to both genetic relations and dating of particular language families and protolanguages. According to its author, Proto-Indo-European was in use ca. 5000 BC, Eurasiatic ca. 9000 BC, and Proto-Afro-Asiatic ca. 10000 BC. The Nostratic language, which existed ca. 13000 BC, is said to have given birth to Eurasiatic and Afro-Asiatic.

(4) File:Haplotype middle east.jpg


(6) (also please take a look at the great J haplogroup concentration in the caucasian Daghestan)

Humanbyrace (talk) 11:29, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Humanbyrace (talk) 10:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Article cloning[edit]

The principle of cloning the R1a and R1b article into this one is fundamentally flawed as they constantly need to be synchronized. There's very little point in having the full text in several places. I'm going to remove all the text, apart from the intros, for the groups and keep the links to the main articles. --Denoir 22:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Better sourcing, lots of crazy claims[edit]

I've just removed this absurd sentence from the page:

Ancient European legends often report a Scythian origin for the royal families of Europe, which may be the source of the slight distribution of R1a in western and southern Europe.

This statement is absurdly non-specific (does the author have any idea how many royal families there are in Europe?). Every trace level of some haplogroup in an otherwise largely distinct population can be explained by recourse to some obscure legend, but this doesn't mean we ought to mention it unless there's at least some reason to believe it was true. --Saforrest 06:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the article. For example, the whole passage about R1b1 should start with the notion about the change of nomenclature (R1b3>R1b1]. Each haplotype should get its own paragraph. This article is somewhat messy. 13:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Image of "sorb national costume"[edit]

This seems like a bit of a case of misleading vividness to have females of an ethnicity pictured in reference to Y-DNA of that particular people, doesn't it? Nagelfar (talk) 14:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Especailly since females don't carry Y-chromosomes. ;)2605:6000:BFC0:1:7515:45F:ACBB:329B (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Migration map[edit]

The map at the top of this article is highly misleading. As just one example, I1a is shown traveling from Near East straight to Scandinavia, whereas data shows instead that I1a traveled North from a glacial refuge in Western Europe. Jamesdowallen (talk) 05:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and of course R1a was carried from Europe to India 4000 years ago by the famous chariot-riding Indo-Europeans, along with the Sanskrit language.
But the leftist political doctrine is "Out of Africa/Out of the Middle East". Nothing is ever allowed to develop in, or leave Europe, prefiguring "racist colonialism". — Preceding unsigned comment added by MapCritic (talkcontribs) 08:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Place of Origin[edit]

I notice the place of origin is missing in the infobox

According too Regueiro et all and his studies Iran is likely the origin of this gene.

From: M. Regueiro (2006) "From the disparate M198 frequencies observed for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a movement southward towards India where the lineage may have had an influence on the populations south of the Iranian deserts and where the Dash-e Lut desert would have played a signifi cant role in preventing the expansion of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece [27] and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically significant longitudinal correlation [2] ) and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia, 6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) [24] suggests that population movement was southward towards India and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition, the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia." Cyrus111 (talk) 23:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There is also a recent study that confirms ultra-rare forms of early R through the Iranian plateau, and more interestingly R1b*, the ancestor to the widespread European haplotype. Iran seems to always be left out as a potentioal place of origin, though there seems to be the clearest amount of evidence for this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


In place of Origin, I avoided using nations because they distract from pinpointing the geographic origin & gives a nationalistic flavor to the article. Cadenas2008 (talk) 02:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted this article to my last edit to remove warring edits over origins. I have also removed Iran from the origins box. There is no way of pinpointing origins to a specific country, or at least not in the current state of knowledge. These warring edits have included adding material about R1b which belongs on the specific page for R1b, which I removed once already for that reason. There is now a short section of origins supported by scholarly references. --Genie (talk) 20:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Need for update to haplogroup tree[edit]

The 2006 ISOGG tree is quite out of date. Haplogroups need to be updated to conform with the 2009 tree at Crummyusername (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)Crummyusername

New Stuff[edit]

This article needs a strong focus on paragroup R-M207*. --RebekahThorn (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Subclades Clade Diagram[edit]

I am putting this here because I do not want to loose it.

Haplogroup R 
Paragroup R-M207*

 Haplogroup R1

 Paragroup R1*

 Haplogroup R1a

 Paragroup R1a*

 Haplogroup R1a1

 Haplogroup R1b

 Paragroup R1b*

 Haplogroup R1b1

 Haplogroup R2

 Paragroup R2*

 Haplogroup R2a

 Paragroup R2a*

 Haplogroup R2a1

Native Americans[edit]

Do we know for certain that this haplogroup's presence in North America is because of "European admixture"? I just saw on the page for "R M17" that there are a sizable percentage of Itelman and Chukchi people who belong to this haplogroup as well.