Talk:Harrier Jump Jet
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- 1 Harrier jet in the film Contact
- 2 Language
- 3 Operational History
- 4 Order of users in info box
- 5 Constant change to title
- 6 Harrier weakness ?
- 7 Requested move
- 8 Supersonic?
- 9 Background Edit AND Second Gen harriers
- 10 Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page
The 1997 feature film Contact has a brief scene showing what appears to be a Harrier jet landing on a ship off the coast of Japan. The ship is moving forward at a rapid speed, and the jet approaches its landing pad from a direction almost abeam to the ship. In order to maintain its position directly above the moving landing pad, the plane would have to be moving laterally at a speed matching that of the ship. Is that physically possible?
- Probably - the Harrier has a pretty good turn of speed both sideways and backwards, see link (commentary in German)  so yes it probably could land-on sideways on a fast-ish moving ship — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
You seem to use the English from across the pond, rather than my quaint dialect :). Given that the Harrier is of British origins, we should probably use British English throughout. Although I can read/understand British English fairly well, I don't write it in naturally. So feel free to change any dialect/spelling/grammar you feel is necessary, as you go along. For the most part, we ought to use as neutral a reading as we can.
Anyway, thanks for your input, and the original "germ" of the idea. - BillCJ 16:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well deduced! I live in Kingston upon Thames where the Harrier was concieved. A pleasure to collaborate over such distance! I'm not going to quibble about spelling! PeterGrecian 13:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- The first generation Harriers are certainly of British origin, but the Harrier II is as much American as it is British. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 16:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
That's true too. But since the British designed and developed it first, I thought we could default to their rules in case of any conflict. It doesn't seem it's going to be an issue with Peter either way though. We might end up with quite a mix in the article, so I was trying to preclude that beforehand. - BillCJ 17:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
the very orgional was a french aircraft which was scrapped, the idea spawned the british to create a V/STOL aircraft. there was limited British government backing so hawker funded it itself.The British government had scrapped so many aircraft before it that it bought i belive 80 aircraft and told hawker it wasnt going to purchase anymore. then the USMC saw the potential of the harrier in comflicts such as vietnam, although it wasnt used their and injected cash and bought the aircraft after the aircraft had been fully developed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markgoodall (talk • contribs) 18:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I am a "yank" who has lived in London, those darn Brits just don't know how to speak English :)
I am happy to say that I did not topple the Marble Arch in 1974!
It was a rainy day in '74 and I was driving around the circle and another motorist cut me off which caused me to swerved my car and did an excellent 360 while traveling around the arch. I stayed on the road and regained my bearing and completed the circle with no casualties.
Of course English on both sides of "the Pond" have taken on their own flavours due to societal evolution, we don't have much differences except in spelling. Americanization has simplified colour to color and flavour to flavor. Brits say lorry and Yanks say truck, Brits say pram and Yanks say carriage. Even within the bounds of the UK and the US, each have their own regional ways of speaking.
I have no problem with the British, English, American and Cockney way of spelling and speaking.
I enjoy our differences.
Markgoodall, excellent contribution, but slow down - use spell cheque :}
The One and Only Worldwise Dave Shaver 21:51, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
This section should be in there. AThousandYoung 19:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is an overview article. The Operational history belongs in the Hawker Siddeley Harrier, BAE Sea Harrier, AV-8 Harrier II and BAE Harrier II variant articles.
A recent Time magazine article, Osprey: A Flying Shame claims that "Since 1971, more than a third of Harriers have crashed, killing 45 Marines in 143 accidents." This would seem to be a fact that if true merits mention in this overview, which is where people like myself will land first; the article implies this, by mentioning the high level of specialized skill required to fly the plane, but doesn't state the resulting consequences of this requirement (an extremely high rate of accidents and fatalities). tvleavitt (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
What I don't understand is why US in comparison with British forces had so many accidents, on average the RAF flew the Harrier far more yet have far fewer accidents, could the failure rate be due to lack of experienced instructers in this particular aircraft? Twobells (talk) 09:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
- According to to John Farley, Harrier test pilot, the problem was mainly due to the USMC allocating former helicopter pilots to the Harrier. These pilots had a tendency to allow the Harrier to get ahead of them, i.e., the pilots had difficulty anticipating the aircraft's reaction to their control inputs at the high speeds compared to the helicopters they had been trained on. Although subsonic, the Harrier is still a 'fast jet' and helicopter-trained pilots for the most part don't (or didn't) have the ingrained quick reactions necessary to fly the Harrier safely, especially at low levels. When the Harrier was first introduced the USMC put their best pilots onto flying the aircraft and they had no accidents at all for the first two years. The Harrier is NOT a helicopter - it's a 'fast jet' and needs to be treated like one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 09:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Order of users in info box
- The USMC was placed on top because it has used the largest number of all Harrier variants combined. The subject of this article is all the Harrier types, both the Is and IIs. On the page for the Hawker Siddeley Harrier, the first variant, the RAF is listed first. You're welcome to try to build a consensus to change the order. - BillCJ (talk) 02:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, we could remove one of the other users, like Spain, and add the Italian Navy - that would be first alphabetically :) - BillCJ (talk) 03:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Spain is first Alphabetically by Nation as the RAF is an organ of the UK.
Frankly I think the country of origin and its user should be first and then alphabetically for the other nations. the the RAF and the RN should be first. - Marscmd (talk) 00:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Constant change to title
Harrier weakness ?
- As far as i am aware it was not designed to lift vertically with a full load of bombs so not really a weakness. MilborneOne (talk) 09:42, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- No matter how much a Harrier can lift vertically, it would always be able to carry more through a short take-off, as the wings would proved more lift that vertical power alone, up to the airframe's MTOW and its ability to carry the extra weight, available pylons, etc. That's just aerodynamics and physics. - BilCat (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
- There was an anecdote (possibly apocryphal) in the 'Straight & Level' column (Uncle Roger) in Flight International around 1973:
- A NATO four-star Air Force General was being shown round an RAF Advance Deployment of Harriers somewhere in the-then West Germany, and wishing to show interest he went round asking the personnel questions. To one RAF ground crewman he asked:
- 'Son, what are your facilities for servicing other NATO aircraft?'
- Ground crewman: - "Pardon?"
- Four-Star Air Force General: - 'Well, what would you do if, say, a Luftwaffe F-104 came in here and wanted re-fuelling and re-arming - what facilities do you have?'
- Ground crewman: - "Sir, you land a Starfighter in here and I'll provide the facilities"
The commentary on an archive BBC video here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11996312 clearly states that the Harrier was flown at supersonic speeds. The article states the m,ax speed of the GR3 as just 'transonic' and the later versions as considerably less. The article only indicates that another supersonic version P1150 was planned, but not followed up. Some digging suggests "The sharp lipped harriers are transonic M1.2 at altitude with a usable load but the drag index is too high to effectively use this. " but I can't find reliable evidence for this. Can anyone? The Yowser (talk) 10:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- A supersonic version of the Harrier was trialled, by equiping the engine with a 'Plenum Chamber Burner'. This was the vectored equivalent of an after burner as the burner was placed in the chamber between the two rear (hot) nozzles. It was not regarded as a success, partly because the large engine air intake imposed unacceptable drag. I don't have an independant cite for this either, so can't put this in the article. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:28, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/history_p1154.htm and http://www.vectorsite.net/avav8_1.html#m6 cover the P.1150 idea which became the Hawker Siddeley P.1154 (until cancelled while the development aircraft were actually being built in 1965) GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:39, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
- IIRC, all variants of the P.1127/Kestrel/Harrier were transonic, they just didn't have the engine power to reach Mach 1.0 in level flight. They were all, like the Hawk, supersonic in dives. The P.1154 was designed to be supersonic however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 20:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- For some reason Wikipedia has chosen definitions for 'subsonic', 'transonic' and 'supersonic' that vary from the traditional - at least in the UK - aeronautical ones. The Harrier has always been properly described as a 'transonic' design because it can be dived to above Mach 1 without problems. Similarly the Hawker Hunter is also a 'transonic' design, as it too can be dived at above Mach 1 with no problems. Generally, 'subsonic' jet aircraft, such as the Gloster Meteor or Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, need to be kept away from speeds around Mach 1 as compressibility problems then occur, which usually make the aircraft uncontrollable. A 'transonic' aircraft has no such problems. A 'transonic' aeroplane differs from a 'supersonic' one by not possessing sufficient engine power, i.e., thrust, to reach and exceed Mach 1 in level flight.
- BTW, the 'transonic' definition arose because the range of maximum permissible speeds (Vne) straddles the Mach 1.0 region, rather than being under ('sub') or above ('super') it.
Background Edit AND Second Gen harriers
in a TV documentary about for channel five. it had alot of information about the early years of the harrier. for such things as the project was funded by Sydney Cam Hawkers chief designer and did not recieve funding from any one until after it first flight.
Second Gen Harriers
i am a little confused as why does the harrier say "The British Areospace license-built " as BAE systems owns the rights to Harrier it should be the "American license-built AV-8B Harrier " and will people stop refering when talking about the Harrier GR 5 upwards as Harrier II as that is the american Designation not the British One the RAF and RN when refer to the harrier never said Harrier II adn neither do BAE systems
"The BAE Systems/Boeing Harrier II is a modified version of the AV-8B Harrier II that was used by the Royal Air Force (RAF) and the Royal Navy until 2010" no the AV-8B is a modified version of the Harrier GR 5 and the Harrier II Plus is a modified GR 7/9 and could go as far as saying the only thing they have in common is the basic shape and engine and things that arent released to the general public
My information for this comes from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgso1yUHUy8 - this is a Demand Five you tube thing and i am not sure if america can get it.
- See the McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II article or this website for more information on the AV-8B/GR5/7/9. The AV-8B project was initiated by McDonnell Douglas, BAe only joined later, as a subcontractor. BAe's own study for a second-generation Harrier (the Harrier GR.5(K) or "Big-Wing Harrier") was quite different, and not proceeded with. Development of the AV-8B later diverged, and the AV-8B+ doesn't really correspond to the GR7/9. AV-8 is a US DoD designation, and essentially means "Attack, VTOL, number 8". Regards, Letdorf (talk) 01:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC).
- It is a shame that my grandad was involed in the project and says a different story but as the internet says it i sure it must be correct. Also even if the second gen part of the thing is wrong even though i dont think it is. the documentary i put on there does include the early stages of the harrier with interviews from the creator of the Bristol/Rolls Royce Pegasus engine and the Designer of the Harrier itself or are we going to completly ignore that so can the correct infomation be added or do we keep with the american version of events. Marscmd (talk) 15:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- Mike Spick and Bill Gunston were/are noted British aviation writers, and the WP Harrier family articles use much of their printed material as sources. There is also enough similarity between the American and British variants of the Harrier II that the US has purchased 72 GR9/9As as spares. I wouldn't call the GR5 a license built AV-8B, however, as there was shared development and production. But there is no doubt that the Harrier II program was US-led, and developed primarily to USMC requeiremnts for Close Air Support missions, which Gunston has opined against at length in his books on the subject, as have other British writers. - BilCat (talk) 17:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
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