Talk:Harry S. Truman

Please remove the dot after the S in his middle name

Please remove the dot after the S in his middle name. It is not used because it is not short for something. See The Harry S Truman National Historic site: http://www.nps.gov/hstr/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henninger ainscough (talk • contribs) 18:55, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

98.208.60.136 (talk) 04:43, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

NO. He signed his name "Harry S. Truman", and that's the way it is. See the FAQ here. Also, note that the Truman library uses the "S."[3] Read the Truman library's full explanation for further info.[4] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

"See the FAQ here" - which states that either form can be correct. Moreover, is that FAQ meant to be about usage in this article or about the person/his name itself? — Smjg (talk) 22:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Both. And consensus (and the preponderance of sources) use the period. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:32, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The preponderance of sources use it because either:

• They see "Harry S Truman" and out of ignorance assume the "." has just been inadvertently omitted.
• They are not giving his middle name, only his middle initial.

FWIW I've just looked at a few other US presidents' articles for comparison. I shall summarise my findings in a table:

Page title	Name as given in lead paragraph
Lyndon B. Johnson	Lyndon Baines Johnson
Franklin D. Roosevelt	Franklin Delano Roosevelt
George W. Bush	George Walker Bush
Ulysses S. Grant	Ulysses S. Grant

OK, so they don't all quite follow this pattern. But these cases set a precedent for using "Harry S. Truman" (first name, middle initial, last name) as the page title, and "Harry S Truman" (first name, middle name, last name) in the lead paragraph.

Moreover, this whole subject has come up many times. Have you looked through the talk page archive? — Smjg (talk) 23:15, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it has come up many times. "S." is the form to use throughout. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

For something of such minor importance, it is the most disputed topic in this article. If there is a definitive source that there should not be a period, then please provide it. I added Ulysses S. Grant to the table above. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 02:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

If there's a definitive source that the form "Harry S Truman" is wrong, please provide it. Until we can find one, one can only ask: Who has ruled that this individual must never be referred to on WP by all his names? Why has this individual been singled out?

OK, so it may be the case that he had no middle name. (It would appear that this is the case with Ulysses S. Grant, though that full name was an adopted one.) The one source we have doesn't comment on the claim that Harry's middle name is S, but merely states that it "did not stand for any name". Does anyone here have access to Harry's birth certificate? (Of course, knowing the format of birth certificates from the time and place of relevance would also help.)

Or is this your point – because there's no definitive source claiming that S is his middle name, we shouldn't claim it is? — Smjg (talk) 22:57, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

According to this,[5] Harry didn't have one, as they weren't required by MIssouri law at that time. Although the "S." didn't stand for any one name, "in effect" it stood for both "Shipp" and "Solomon". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, he signed his name "S." and his own library calls it "S." and they should know if anyone would. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:14, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

So what? "John M. Smith" is a very common way of writing someone's name, regardless of how many letters the middle name has in it. — Smjg (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

If the "M." in "John M. Smith" stood for both "Michael" and "Marvin", you wouldn't write it as "M", you'd write it as "M.", in America anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:46, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

If somebody had two middle names, normally it would be written "John Michael Marvin Smith" or "John M. M. Smith". OK, so one middle initial might etymologically stand for two names, but they can't both be his one middle name. Presumably, either Harry had a middle name or he didn't. My point was that knowing that his signature and institution names contain an "S." doesn't in any way prove that it didn't stand for just "S" in his legal or common name. — Smjg (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

To put it another way, compare this situation with Johnny Cash, whose legal name was John R. Cash. Not John R Cash, but John R. Cash. Officially, the "R." stood for nothing, just like the "S." in "Harry S. Truman" officially stood for nothing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:58, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

But has anybody ever claimed that Johnny's middle name is "R"? What is/was his middle name legally - "R", "R." or nothing at all? — Smjg (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Can we find somebody alive now who has either a one-letter middle name or a middle initial that stands for nothing? (Indeed, can people still be named in such a way in any jurisdiction that uses an alphabetic script?) How is the fact of the latter represented on birth certificates, passports, etc.? Anybody out there who is named in such a way, please de-lurk and speak out! — Smjg (talk) 12:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

There are other people who have middle names that are initials only. But we are not discussing them, we are discussing Truman. As noted in the article, he used a period when he signed presidential documents. The preponderance of sources in the article use a period, and you can't change those. Most places and things named after Truman use a period and you can't change those. Is there a compelling argument that he did not use a period backed up by reliable sources? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

You've done little but repeat what people have already said and I've already debunked the relevance of. Oh, you mean whether he wrote "HARRY S" or "HARRY S." when filling in the "first names" box on a form? That is indeed something that we don't know at the moment. — Smjg (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

His ENTIRE Middle Name is "S". It did NOT stand for two different names, just "S". So the "S." stands for "S", NOT Shipp or Solomon.71.180.171.44 (talk) 16:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't actually stand for anything, it's just a middle initial "S." complete with the period. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents: As Truman stated he had no preference, it is reasonable to follow the convention used by places named after/for him, such as his library. Most of these places use "S." and hence wikipedia should follow that convention. Secondly, to clear something up, "S." doesn't stand for Shipp or Solomon, but he was named after him. Just like a mother may name her child "John" after her father "Johnathon". And I think someone asked why this has generated so much discussion, even though it's not really important. Answer: It's not a clear cut issue, unlike most (presumably) are on this page. Arguments can be made in favour of each side in this case, but not in factual issues. (Ie. the question is "should this page use the "."or not", not "Did Truman use the "." or not", the latter of which can be proven, but not the former. - Ezuvian (talk) 14:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Lambda Chi Alpha

Why is his honorary membership in Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity no longer mentioned on the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.13.208.129 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 21 November 2011

Talk:Harry_S._Truman/Archive_3#Lambda_Chi_Alpha ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

How can we bring this back up for discussion? Membership in Greek organizations is pretty standard-fare for the Wikipedia pages of presidents, such as George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, both Roosevelts, etc. 71.71.116.156 (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Truman never went to college and never joined or was active in any fraternity. Rjensen (talk) 08:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

That is blatantly false. Truman was initiated into Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity in 1945. "In 1945, the Cross & Crescent magazine reported that Truman was initiated in his office in the Federal Building in Kansas City, Missouri, at 11 a.m. on June 28, 1945. The earliest signed photo bears the date August 29, 1945. The editor wrote that 14 members of the Kansas City Alumni Association, representing the University of Missouri chapter, initiated Truman in a simple ceremony. Brother Truman was recorded as Gamma-Kappa 213."

http://pdf.crossandcrescent.com/2006/08/cc06aug_print.pdf

It sounds like this information is only being excluded because specific editors deem it to be un-important. However, given the fact that it is 1. verifiable and 2. a piece of information that is regularly included in articles on famous individuals, I would like to request that his membership be once again added to the article. 71.71.116.156 (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

it was 100% honorific -- like the honorary degrees he had (which did not mean he had a college education). Did he attend meetings? no. This is merely a device to slip the Lambda Chi Alpha name into an important article where it does not belong. Rjensen (talk) 19:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Rjensen. An honorary fraternity induction given to Truman when he was 60 years old is not interesting or important, and it is not analogous to Roosevelt's membership in fraternal organizations while a student at Harvard, as the anonymous editor suggested. If there was some evidence that he was active in the affairs of Lambda Chi Alpha, or that he himself considered it significant, that might be worth including. —Mark Dominus (talk) 22:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Every president has received honorary memberships or degrees from dozens of organizations, so this isn't really notable. See the Google search for "harry truman" honorary. Example: FDR and Eisenhower were honorary members of the Order of the Arrow; notable in the OA article: yes; in the presidential articles: no. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 22:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

not a peace agreement

Harry_S._Truman#Korean_War states that "The war remained a frustrating stalemate for two years, with over 30,000 Americans killed, until a peace agreement restored borders and ended the conflict.<ref name="korwarstats">{{cite web |url=http://www.korean-war.com/miakia.html|title=U.S. Military Korean War Statistics |publisher=Korean-war.com |accessdate=July 26, 2007}}</ref>" This statement is contradicted by the source cited. The source at timeline1953 states that on 27 July 53 "The United States, North Korea and China sign an armistice, which ends the war but fails to bring about a permanent peace. To date, the Republic of Korea (South) and Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea (North) have not signed a peace treaty." Peace agreement is an incorrect term - see armistice. For the text of the thing see Korean_Armistice_Agreement.

""The war remained a frustrating stalemate for two years, with over 30,000 Americans killed, until an armistice ended the fighting." would not be contradicted by sources cited, and is also a more accurate statement. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 04:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I have revised the article as you suggested. —Mark Dominus (talk) 16:39, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

So I see - thank you. I am removing the [[File:Korea Armistice.JPG]] thumbnail. - 67.224.51.189 (talk) 04:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 December 2011

Because Harry S Truman's middle name does not stand for anything, the "S" should not have a period after it.

Theone who does stuffa (talk) 21:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. Read the FAQ. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:16, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Attorney General's List of Subversive Organizations (AGLOSO)

I realize this is an extremely difficult topic, but I hope you guys eventually put in a link to Attorney General's List of Subversive Organizations, if you think that it is important enough to be in the article. It's not in faq and I can not find that term, or its acronymn, in the archives. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC) The problem is:

1. "Truman, a pragmatic man who had made allowances for the likes of Tom Pendergast and Stalin, quickly developed an unshakable loathing of Joseph McCarthy." true, but "unshakable loathing" is not really an effective presidential policy.
2. "He counterattacked, saying that 'Americanism' itself was under attack by ..." Kind of omits the part about under whose's leadership AGLOSO was published under- Truman. All that's here was Truman was against McCarthy. For someone who's motto was the buck stops here, this article is not placing any blame on Truman for it. You can omit agloso, but utilizing 2 sentences to say Truman was against McCarthyism and 0 sentences for whom was, somewhat responsible - at the very least, i do not think that is fair.

That being said. This is a pretty complicated article. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

keepalive66.234.33.8 (talk) 01:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 2 January 2012

I would simply like to edit the title of this page, which states "Harry S. Truman". The only thing wrong with this is that the S in Harry S. Truman should NOT have a period after it. Pesident Truman's does not have a full middle name. When he was born, they left his middle name a just "S" because they did not know whether to call him after his paternal of maternal grandfather. I have to present a research on Truman and I noticed the title. So please change the title from Harry S. Truman to Harry S Truman. Thank you.

PS... Wikipedia ROCKS

Koomi2 (talk) 01:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ above and provide a compelling and well sourced reason. If you can get the US Navy to rename the USS Harry S. Truman then you have a good chance of renaming this article. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 02:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Article claims that Truman was the last president born in the 19th Century.

Article claims that Truman was the last president born in the 19th Century.

I believe that claim belongs to Eisenhower who was born October 14, 1890. (according to wikipedia).

I have no idea how to change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timotmo (talk • contribs) 01:51, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I misunderstood that too when it was added. I believe it is trying to claim that, at the time of his death, Truman was the last living president to have been born in the 19th century. This is true.

It does seem like a pointless piece of trivia, however. Would anyone object if I just removed it? —Mark Dominus (talk) 04:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Nobody objected, so I just removed it. —Mark Dominus (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I will fight you to the death over it!

On second thought, I'm not allowed to fight anything to the death. Doctor's orders.

So, it's gone and will stay gone. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)