Talk:Haut de la Garenne

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Article Split[edit]

This article is entitled Haut de la Garenne and is about a building with a moderately interesting history through its several uses. Well over half the article is given over to the child abuse investigation and subsequent criticisms of that investigation. Most of this content is irrelevant to the building and I would propose that it is split off into a new article specifically about the child abuse investigation. Suggested name Jersey child abuse investigation 2008. NtheP (talk) 11:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fully support split proposal. Are you offering to split the article yourself? Mr_pand [talk | contributions] 13:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I do it'll be very simple :-) cut and paste of the relevant sections. NtheP (talk) 13:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Split. NtheP (talk) 15:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with splitting off this article, unless clear reference is kept regarding the 2008 police investigation. The place is known throughout the world due to the child abuse investigation, and subsequent convictions of staff members abusing children in the 1970's. Much is still unexplained that was unearthed during the police investigation. Much of the comments section has been deleted and assigned to the memory hole that George Orwell warned about. Child abuse is deep rooted in UK society, and is regularly covered up when it involves members of the establishment. Google: "Hollie Greig" if you want to get an idea of how sexual abuse can be covered up using the legal system. The children abused at Haut de la Garenne in the 1970's were kept silent for many years, until the police started digging over the soil! For these people alone, this part of history must not be glossed over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.121.186.28 (talk) 13:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did you look at the article? You'll see that the article about the child abuse investigation is clearly linked twice. Nobody s glossing over the allegations, indeed giving them their own article is probably giving greater coverage than including them in an article about a building. 62.25.109.197 (talk) 16:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jersey Evening Post - Reliable Source ?[edit]

In light of the allegations made of failing to report, and the feebleness of their justification (they could, in fact, have reported without revealing the victims), which ISTR was the same as the governments, as detailed in The Independent here, I would suggest that it would be better to use other sources since they may well fail to meet WP:Reliable source standards on this issue. Since there are plenty of other sources this is easy enough. What do you think ? -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 17:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Jersey Evening Post is at least as reliable as any other on-the-spot media. The Independent is not that reliable anyway - in that linked Indy report they mis-spell Paisnel and don't make it as clear as they might that the 2000 report on the Victoria College case had nothing to do with Haut de la Garenne. Tonight's JEP has 7 full pages of news, interviews and analysis - plus the newspaper can draw on an unrivalled archive of reports covering the period from the 1960s. I'm not a stranger to the media in Jersey and certainly don't even believe everything that's reported about me ;-) but I wouldn't say that the JEP is noticeably less reliable when it comes to fact than foreign press. When it comes to their political judgement, that's another matter, and they may be considered partisan in the Walker-Syvret tussles - but as a newspaper they're entitled to opinion and comment. Man vyi (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My view is that the Jersey Evening Post is not all that reliable with regards to this article. They are potentially biased towards the States of Jersey, given that the Chief Minister Frank Walker (Jersey politician) used to own the Jersey Evening Post. The article would appear more balanced if it used a wide variety of news sources, there are plenty of them including all UK newspapers, and Sky News. All of those news sources had journalists reporting from Jersey. Danrok (talk) 23:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The citation titled 'Skull fragment "may be red herring"' is now linking to a missing page.Danrok (talk) 03:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict between sources[edit]

I've reverted the government interpretation of the YHA decision with the YHA's press release. Both dated the same day. Where there's a conflict such as this, it doesn't make sense to replace primary sources with secondary sources. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The press release on behalf of the trustees is a primary source with an exact date. Man vyi (talk) 11:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compensation Claims[edit]

There is a claim underway for compensation for the victims, see http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article942427.ece and http://www.dyerburdett.com/blog/haut-de-la-garenne-press-conference-2/ and http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1310072,00.html?f=rss

But I don't know if it is relevant ot this page or not? Kert01 (talk) 11:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't have thought that it was encyclopaedic as things stand. The claims are speculative anyway, being time-barred (unless there's a legislative change). Man vyi (talk) 12:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If a lawyers are seeing alleged victims regarding abuse and possible claims, then I would thought this is history (albeit recent) and should be part of any article, once there are verifiable facts, either in the JEP or elsewhere.

I notice the Mail which reported on the pseudo-skull fragment also reported that "Firms of lawyers are planning to claim damages for 27 former residents". The only trouble is that at the moment it does not give details of which lawyers. However, the link given above is undoubtably accurate:

http://www.dyerburdett.com/blog/haut-de-la-garenne-press-conference-2/

This is the press statement given by Dyer Burdett & Co and Ozannes on 14th March 2008:

Jersey Advocates Ozannes have joined forces with English Solicitors Dyer Burdett & Co to advise and assist persons who suffered abuse at the Haut de la Garenne children’s home in relation to civil claims for the abuse that they suffered.

I've verifyed this with the Ozannes site:

http://www.ozannes.com/ozannes_news.asp?newsID=132

14.04.08 Ozannes acts in Haut de la Garenne civil claims

Ozannes has been instructed to act in relation to the Haut de la Garenne civil claims. For more information please visit www.jerseyabuseclaims.co.uk

I would say therefore that it is (a) relevant (b) soundly sourced factual, and should form part of the article. --TonyinJersey (talk) 10:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

End of excavation[edit]

Now that the excavation is finished, and it appears unlikely according to the States Police that any datable evidence will lead to murder charges, the process of tidying up some of the the recent speculative headline material can be continued in the next few days, and some encyclopaedic tone can be copyedited into the article. Also, next time I'm heading along La Rue de la Pouclée et des Quatre Chemins, I'll try and get a photo of the building to upload. Man vyi (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated with latest news and tidied up the chronology. I've separated out the criticisms (which should really concentrate on criticisms relevant to the Haut de la Garenne investigation). Any problems? Man vyi (talk) 10:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pics as promised. More available siez Commons. Man vyi (talk) 15:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ch'lyi[edit]

A thought: since the so-called "chambers" are the old ch'lièrs of the building which were filled in (for whatever reason), might it be helpful to upload a picture showing a ch'lyi? There's a good example of a restored ch'lyi under the Langlois House at Hamptonne of which I have pics which I could upload. Of course, this verges on OR - but one has, I believe, a certain leeway as regards illustrations. What do people think? Man vyi (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Criticisms of the investigation[edit]

Some allegations are emerging (here[1]) with regards to an article in the Daily Mail. It would appear that Leonard Harper is claiming someone may have tampered with correspondence which was leaked to the Daily Mail. Obviously, it is difficult to establish solid facts, at this point in time.Danrok (talk) 03:21, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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