Talk:Hazaras

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Former good article nomineeHazaras was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 25, 2009Good article nomineeNot listed

Provide a source[edit]

@Jadidjw The number given is from already established sources give proof otherwise you will be reported. Barbardo (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear user, you must provide a reliable source. Thanks! Jadidjw (talk) 02:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree but the number I gave is from sources mentioned by country In the infobox. Barbardo (talk) 03:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! The number should not be estimated based on countries because some countries where Hazaras live are not available in the infobox and the number I restored is higher than your estimate. Jadidjw (talk) 03:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you find any source then use it but so far these are the only sources so it ehould be based on these numbers. Barbardo (talk) 07:40, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What you are dling counts as vandalism if you do it again I will report you I have given you many chances find a source that proves you claims. @Jadidjw Barbardo (talk) 18:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Dear @Barbardo: Based on which source did you make changes to the article? If you consider my edits to be vandalism, then you are doing vandalism yourself. I have also given you chances to provide reliable sources to prove your claim. Jadidjw (talk) 18:40, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you being serious? You are messing with the sources given and claiming its 10 to 14 million find a source to prove it even the changes you made only made 8 million if you dont provide a source to prove your claim and revert the edit you will be reported. I already told you I got the numbers from the countries mentioned in the userbox lets see whp they will agree with if you think I am the vandal. @Jadidjw Barbardo (talk) 19:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You may not change the figure provided based on the source that the total Hazara population are "more than 8 million". Thanks! Jadidjw (talk) 20:09, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But its not hazara largerly only live in pakistan, afghanistan and iran there population number is given while the rest is diaspora in europe and northen america and they are not in the millions and their numbers are already given @Jadidjw Barbardo (talk) 20:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ignore what I said you gave a source now my bad @Jadidjw Barbardo (talk) 20:24, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Jadidjw (talk) 21:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is even going on here. You two are still reverting each other (WP:3RR and WP:EDITWARRING). HistoryofIran (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we settled it now so its fine. Barbardo (talk) 22:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Non-existent and wrong source[edit]

The Great Russian Encyclopedia did not say anything about the language and history of the Hazara people. The information in the Hazaras article was added based on this false and non-existent source. Please see[1] Jadidjw (talk) 23:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2023[edit]

Add a few famous people in the article. 203.171.96.53 (talk) 15:36, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 18:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2023[edit]

I would like to add Pakistani Hazara jurist Qazi Faez Isa to the article. 203.171.100.57 (talk) 17:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Population[edit]

@HistoryofIran: If the source I added is not WP:RS, then the previous source [2] is still not WP:RS. It was previously removed because it was not WP:RS. Thank you! Jadidjw (talk) 16:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just because x is unreliable doesn't mean that y also is. However, since the consensus was that Minahan is not WP:RS, I removed it and thus its numbers too. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Jadidjw (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting reasons[edit]

@HistoryofIran: Hi, I don't know why you reverted my edit as I explained it. There is a tribe called Moghols, who are descendants of the Mongol Empire's soldiers led by Genghis Khan in Afghanistan. And what I removed was inaccurate information that did not pertain to the Hazara people. Jadidjw (talk) 18:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand. Are you trying to refute scholars by stating your own deduction? Or are you stating that the sources don't even mention the Hazara? The former is obviously not acceptable. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said in the editing summary, Moghols are not Hazaras, this is a clear truth. First: the information that I removed was said based on the Afghan Moghols about the Hazara people. Second: that content doesn't help much for the Wikipedia article, it's better not to have it. Jadidjw (talk) 19:29, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So the former then. That is not acceptable, Wiki is based on WP:RS, not our personal opinions. Please dont do this again. Ill later do a check and see if you removed more sourced info in this article in the past. It looks like you have resumed your past edits of removing sources info about the Mongol aspect of the Hazaras, which will not be further tolerated. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dear HistoryofIran: Wikipedia should be based on facts, information that is unlikely to be true should not be found here. Jadidjw (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and it's currently based on facts. It would likely not be based on facts if we added your opinion. Why? Because Wikipedia is based on WP:RS, not your personal opinion. You've been around since 2021, you should know this. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For those interested, I've taken this to WP:ANI [3]. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Transliteration[edit]

@Jadidjw can you show where "Həzārə" was "agreed upon"? I can't find anything on the talk page(s) and there's nothing in the edit log to suggest there was a consensus. NorthTension (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! It "Həzārə" was a minor edit that doesn't need to be discussed, you can make changes to it if you wish. Jadidjw (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my bad, I didn't look at the edit log correctly, sorry about that! NorthTension (talk) 23:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hazaras[edit]

Hazaras are not native to Pakistan and Iran. They are merely inhabitants of said countries.

They are native to the Hazarajat region. 2A02:A44B:A664:0:ADE4:47E4:8AE9:B2C6 (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2024[edit]

I would like to restore some recently deleted reliable sourced information. Bravehm (talk) 18:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 18:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2024 (2)[edit]

A user named KoizumiBS has recently removed several reliable sourced content supported from Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopædia Iranica, and made inappropriate changes in the article. See [4] I hereby request to participate in the editing of the article and edit and restore those authentic sourced materials. Bravehm (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, KoizumiBS restored sourced information that was removed by the now indeffed user Jadidjw who kept attempting to remove the Mongol aspect of the Hazara, and who also made incorrect claims like you. You wouldn't happen to know Jadidjw? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is reason to believe that Bravehm is a sockpuppet of the blocked Iampharzad and Jadidjw. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad KoizumiBS (talk) 23:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current changes in the article are biased and tasteful by one person. They edit the article according to their will, not from all aspects, they changed the correct and stable contents under the pretext of reverting some information. Bravehm (talk) 23:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You misleadingly claimed that KoizumiBS removed sourced information, when they literally did the opposite. And yet you're calling KoizumiBS biased and distasteful? That is rich. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So what is the reason for changing the article information and this type editing of KoizumiBS[5]. See all KoizumiBS contributions, they are only for one purpose in Wikipedia [6] Bravehm (talk) 00:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds like WP:JDLI. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get it wrong. Any subversive editing should not be liked. Bravehm (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're still yet to explain why its "subversive", and as long as you haven't done that, this is WP:ASPERSIONS. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Under the guise of restored sourced info, KoizumiBS has changed sourced info that previously had nothing wrong with it, and this is a subversive edit. Bravehm (talk) 00:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not good enough, this is quite vague. Please come with examples. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For example, KoizumiBS changed sourced info from Encyclopaedia of Islam "The Hazara people speak the Hazaragi dialect of Persian, which is infused with many Turkic and a few Mongolic words." to "According to Britannica, The Hazara speak an eastern variety of Persian called Hazaragi with many Mongolian and Turkic words."
Changed sourced info from Encyclopaedia Iranica "In the 16th-century, some Hazaras spoke a Mongolian language." to "According to a number of sources, in the 16th century the Mongolian language was widespread among the Hazaras."
Others see for yourself.[7] Bravehm (talk) 01:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is poor, the two examples you came up with are more and less the same before and after, KoizumiBS literally just restored the information removed by Jadidjw. So much for the "subversive edit". I'm outta here. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have left the others for you to check because there are too many of them and it would be difficult to describe them here. Bravehm (talk) 01:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not how it works. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reach consensus[edit]

@HistoryofIran: It was a restoretion of the previous sourced edit where the User:KoizumiBS made inappropriate changes. User:KoizumiBS has mentioned about Sultan Masaudi Hazaras in the "Etymology" section, which is not appropriate there. Bravehm (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't think it fit the Etymology section.. so you removed it completely instead of moving it to another section (eg History section)? There's something you're not telling. Is this WP:JDLI like the thread above? HistoryofIran (talk) 00:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The content about Hazaras of Sultan Masaudi Hazaras and Kedi Hazaras ware removed because they not quite appropriate in the Etymology section. Bravehm (talk) 01:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You've already mentioned that part. But why not move it somewhere else instead of completely removing it? HistoryofIran (talk) 02:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I don’t understand why these groups are mentioned in the Etymology section. I think they should be moved to the History section. "Turkoman Hazaras" is only the name of one of the tribes, and not the equivalent of an ethnonym "Hazaras". KoizumiBS (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, though for some reason Bravehm keeps removing it instead, they just did again, I think there is an ulterior motive here. I'm getting deja vu from my experience with Iampharzad and co. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done moved somewhere else. Bravehm (talk) 12:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not the person you make me out to be. Bravehm (talk) 12:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Turkoman Hazaras" are a tribe against which Babur launched a military campaign. The ethnonym "Turkoman" isn't a name for all Hazaras. See "First Campaign against Turkoman Hazaras" and "Turkmun (Hazara tribe)". KoizumiBS (talk) 01:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Read the WP:OR, WP:PSTS, WP:PRIMARY rules: "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself".--KoizumiBS (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter one or more Hazara tribes, it is about Hazara's ethnic roots, and this is in the "Origin" part of the article. When it is like this about the Mongols, then you attribute one tribe on all Hazaras. Several information that you included in the article, it was only about one or a group of Hazaras, but you attributed it to all Hazaras. Bravehm (talk) 05:53, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have included several information about the Mongolian aspect of the Hazaras in the article, They are basically about one tribe or a group related to the Hazaras, but you attributed it to all Hazaras.
For example you have given a Russian source which is only about one group of them, like: "еще в XVI веке говорили хазарейцы по-монгольски в северной части Афганистана" (In the 16th century, the Hazaras in northern Afghanistan spoke Mongolian) But you attributed it to all the Hazaras and its numerous tribes. Bravehm (talk) 06:22, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I include the information about one group of Hazaras in the article, and the information you added, which is only about one group, should be corrected. Bravehm (talk) 06:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything I added was taken from reliable sources. I didn’t write my personal thoughts here. KoizumiBS (talk) 07:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for rewriting and correcting the info.
My goal is that in the genetic studies of an ethnic group, all aspects of its descent should be studied. Since the Hazaras are made up of three racial groups of Iranian, Turkic and Mongols, all three aspects should be studied, not just the Mongol aspects, or Turkic aspects, or Iranian aspects. Bravehm (talk) 11:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from altering/removing sourced information [8] without any WP:CONSENSUS. To others reading this, this is what Bravehm altered; "According to Doctor of Sciences Lutfi Temirkhanov, the ancestors of the Hazaras were Mongol-speaking" -> "According to Doctor of Sciences Lutfi Temirkhanov, the ancestors of some Hazaras were Mongol-speaking." And they removed this; "According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words." HistoryofIran (talk) 12:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the info is not even in the source, Timur Khanov cited Babur notes, for example, while Babur did not said all Hazaras speak Mongolian, but some of them. I added the word some for this reason. Bravehm (talk) 13:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hazaras&oldid=1220715257"