Talk:Helen Suzman

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Assertion by Ken Owen needs backup[edit]

I created the "Criticism" section and moved the Ken Owen item under it, because I believe it's considered appropriate to include notable and significant criticism of a person, particularly when the person is generally considered highly favorably. However, I read the article that was used for the citation, and believe it is not an appropriate or reliable source (WP:SOURCES, WP:RS). The website where the article is found describes itself as "an online community for Zimbabwean activists". Any website that is for "activists" seems likely to be an "extremist or fringe source" and if so should not be cited, per WP:RS. Since what is being quoted is a single person's opinion about Helen Suzman - that also asserts certain claims about her attitudes and actions as if they were fact, it does not seem necessary to the article, and its inclusion without more substance as to the underlying facts, seems to violate WP:NPOV. My suggestion: either add significant, properly cited information that supports Ken Owen's claims about Suzman, or delete the Owen material. Just my opinion - I am only an occasional Wikipedia contributor, but this is how I see it. Thanks. --MoxRox (talk) 15:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

on the end of the article you can read "This is an edited extract of Ronald Suresh Robert’s book, Fit to Govern: The Native Intelligence of Thabo Mbeki". the article's just online on the kubatana website. by the way, it's also allowed to cite from sources which are not online. roberts cites several statements of owen (who is undoubtly of significance) about suzman, i've chosen a few. the citations were identified as owens assessment and not "as if they were fact". it would also be naive to assume there's an absolute truth about a person, an event. criticism (and praise) usually IS brought forward by single persons, so were also dangor's polite words, which are cited in the article. which of owens assessments need to be supported in your opninion?--Severino (talk) 21:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Since The criticism section and Ken Owen have been removed from the article and overall the article seems properly sourced, I remove the "missing citations"-template now.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

In regards to the Ken Owen piece, is it possible to get a better source than Roberts' book? I ask, because I noticed that Owen was extremely critical of Roberts, so I'm concerned that it may not be the best way of sourcing this sort of content. - Bilby (talk) 13:14, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
objection sustained. to me the article you linked puts another complexion on things. i will remove the passage in question as long as there is no other source for this assessment by owen. however, in the article owen makes a statement about SA's liberals which essentially coincides with the assertion of the quote given by roberts. and, the mention of a critical reception of suzman (beside all the praise) wouldn't be a miss for the article.--Severino (talk) 14:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree that for the sake of NPOV we need to include valid criticism - it doesn't makes sense to do otherwise, and few people are perfect. :) What I'm wondering is if this can be sourced to something Own wrote, as it worries me that Owen accused Robert's book of beings seriously flawed. - Bilby (talk) 22:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

On Obituaries[edit]

I propose that obituaries be kept separate, and under the heading "Obituaries". Some person has brought the obituary that I had added under the heading "External links" and deleted the heading "Obituaries" altogether. The two headings serve distinct aims!!! Could that person please restore the entry to its original form? --BF 21:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC).

Removed Ozinsky extemporaneous comments[edit]

I removed Ozinsky's criticism: "During a May 2013 debate on employment equity in the Western Cape Legislature, Max Ozinsky, a Jewish ANC member, blamed Jews like Suzman for apartheid. He said Suzman "wanted to kill us" and accused the Democratic Alliance of wanting to "sanitise Suzman's role in apartheid."

Since I added the criticism by the ANC that was made during her life and over a protracted period, this extemporaneous outburst is of questionable value. The source for the ANC criticism was by the author of a biography and discussed in the Economist book review. Jason from nyc (talk) 21:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)