Talk:Henry II of England

Comments without headings

All comments left at the top of this page without headings or sections have been placed in this section. Please avoid your comment being moved here by making a new section: you can click here or click the + to the right of 'Edit Page' on the tabs above. ~ Veledan • Talk 19:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Very nicely written, but "subverting feudal legislation" has to go -- it doesn't really make sense. If there was such a thing (whole different topic -- I don't think it's a valid expression), then baronial courts would have epitomized it, I'd have thought. The Barons were just abusing the hell out of their power, which had incresed dramatically as a result of the war between Stephen and Matilda. JHK

The point is that feudal legislation was the legislation of the time, ad hoc and rough justice that it was; I agree that the phrase is somewhat oxymoronic but what was going on here was a major shift in power between State (in the form of the King) and the Barony, and this is characterised in reversal by the radical reforms which Henry II introduced. This is a watershed phase in English history. The barons weren't just abusing their power, they were refocussing power to their own ends, a quiet revolution. Henry wasn't going to have that... But if you feel you have to rephrase it, please do. I couldn't think of a better way of explaining a fairly complex phenomenon without the aforementioned oxymoron... sjc

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think there is such a thing as "feudal" legislation. There's just whatever existed at the time. Feudal implies something having to do with personal allegiance and oaths, but some of the people who benefited from Henry's changes wouldn't have had much to do with that. Plus, I'm pretty sure that, if you look at English vs. French vs. Imperial legislative and judicial systems (which many people would call feudal), you'd find that they were all dramatically different. <sigh> I'll sleep on it and see what I can come up with ... <the Carolingianist sighed again, wishing the Middle Ages weren't such a pain in the arse>. It's times like these that I just want to do bios on the Arsenal back four JHK

The Arsenal back four are certainly less complicated: but some of Eeyore's tackles are positively mediaeval in their lateness... :-) sjc

Hey <she said, chuckling mightily> -- Eeyore is one of my heroes! Anyway, it looks like Mr Campbell is getting set to inherit the nickname... and a certain other person who wears bright red boots seems to be making up for age and lack of speed with a Chelsea-like aggressiveness...JHK

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Is it "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest" or "troublesome priest"? I thought the latter, but bouncing both of Google (a legitimate form of historical research, as I'm sure you all know) produces more of the former. Only by a margin of about 2:1, though. Come to think, it's rather remarkable that Henry II spoke modern English.

So what did he say? -- Paul Drye

Probably neither since Henry II's first language was French... sjc

Perhaps "turbulent" and "troublesome" are the same word in French?

Most likely he said "Go kill Tom Becket". What cop would believe that story? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lollipopfop (talk • contribs) 16:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Simon Schama in A History of Britain, the actual quote was "What a parcel of fools and bastards have I nourished in my house that not one of them will avenge me of this one upstart clerk!". As Simon says, it was a roar of Plantagenet anger. - bruzie 10:14, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to Alison Weir in her book, Eleanor of Aquitaine. These were words were never recorded by a contemporary source, and have merely been attributed to him by future historians. hdstubbs

I am presently reading W.L. Warren's Henry II. The weight of the evidence is clearly that Henry II never spoke these words in any language. It would be more romantic if he did. Warren does mention on p.509 that John of Salisbury recorded an earlier occasion where Henry declared that all present "were traitors who could not summon up the zeal and loyalty to rid him of the harassment of one man." John of Salisbury correspondence with Bartholomex, bishop of Exeter. 75Janice (talk) 02:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC) 75Janice

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The article says that Henry had his son Henry the Young King be crowned king in 1170, yet it also states that he continued to reign himself until 1189. So what is going on? Were they co-kings, did they govern different areas, or what?

They were sort of co-kings. It was an attempt to make sure that Henry's heir would suceed him, something he had no guarantee of when he was young. RickK 01:56, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Who were the five sons of Henry and Eleanor? I can only find four: Henry, Richard, Geoffrey, and John. Daughters were Matilda and Eleanor. RickK 01:56, 21 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The 5th son was their eldest, William. He died at age 3, and therefore played little importance in the history of England.

Shouldn't then William be listed under "issue" on the right panel , regardless of how long he lived? 68.71.35.93 11:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Some kings had loads of kids. Edward I had 18, and that's only the legitimate ones. The infobox would be simply unmanageable if all the children should be included, so only the most important ones are there. Eixo 13:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC) ---

the following was posted in the Eleanor of Aquitaine discussion area: Italic textI am very dubious about the link concerning the tapestry designs from the Dame à la Licorne series. The formatting of the web page is a huge hindrance to readability. As I am not one to judge French visual puns I cannot make comment on the first half of the page where deciphering of the tapestries is described. However towards the end of the page the author begins to go off on a tangent concerning the ?sang réal", that is the myth that Christ bore heirs and that the ?blood? of Christ ran through the reigning houses of Europe. This coupled with a virtually Gnostic theory of history of the Italians leads me to doubt much of anything the author says about these tapestries. - Frank BurdettItalic text Someone with a bit more knowledge than I actually removed the link there, should it not also be removed here? --Frank Burdett 03:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--- This is the new link to the abovementioned site for those interested in scholarship and not just conservatism ...

http://home.iprimus.com.au/ian_ison/Y%20Is%20I%20Web/la%20Dame%20à%20la%20Licorne%20Tapestries.html

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I was under the impression that Beckett more likely *fled* england? -as

Er...when? When he left in 1164? Or do you mean was actually not killed but instead fled? Adam Bishop 15:24, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

William Marshal

There is an error here about William Marshal. It said during the rebellion that he stood by the side of Henry II, this is not true. He sided with Henry the Young King. In reply to the question above, "William" was the first child of Henry and Eleanor. Died around the age of 3 however. Henry(the young king), Matilda, Richard(coeur de lion), Geoffrey, Eleanor, Joan, and John(Lackland) were the following children, in order. -THM

Agreed, Marshal was the protector of the Young King and stood by the Young King, against Henry. Imagine haveing to choose sides, the father or the son: "Cursed be the day when the traitors schemed to embroil the father and the son" (William Marshal). --Stbalbach 20:07, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Assize of Northampton

I've created an article on the Assize of Northampton and added a reference to it on this page, I hope it fits in ok. I was just wondering really, when you've created a new page do I need to index it or something, or add it to a list, because it doesn't appear when I search for it. Thannks. --SFO 08:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No need to index it anywhere, it will show up in the search page eventually. Adding links to it from other articles is the best way to make it visible. Adam Bishop 15:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1171 Invasion of Ireland

Can't quite see how to make this fit in. In 1171 he set sail to invade Ireland from Newnham on Severn: "One account of this event stated that Henry's invasion force consisted or 400 ships and some 5,000 men" (according to this).

Map Request

This article would be better with a map of the Angevin Empire. I am new to wikipedia. Does anyone know how to make this request? hdstubbs

Arms

This article appears to indicate the incorrect arms for Henry II. According to Burke's General Armory, Henry II had: "Gules, two lions passant gardant or" until he acquired Aquitaine then it became "Gules, three lions passant gardant or" which of course ultimately became part of the royal arms we see today.

Accession to the throne.

Unless I’m missing it somewhere this article needs a section on how Henry came to sit on the throne as it is my understanding it wasn’t a straight forward father to son accession. Dwp13 16:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right - this is barely dealt with. Henry's mother Matilda and her cousin Stephen had fought a long dispute over who was to occupy the English throne after the death of Matilda's father Henry I in 1135. Eventually, Stephen was largely successful in holding England (after a serious scare in 1141), but Normandy was conquered by Matilda's husband Geoffrey of Anjou. Geoffrey gave Normandy to his and Matilda's son Henry in 1150 (iirc), then died the next year, leaving his son Anjou and Maine. Henry's marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine the next year got him Aquitaine. Stephen was already feeling threatened by this immense acquisition of power on the part of his rival, but the key fact was that in 1153 his elder son, Eustace, died. Although Stephen still had another son, William, who was alive, he decided it was best to cut his losses and recognized Henry as his heir. He died the next year, and Henry succeeded without incident. john k 17:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the section needs writing. For many years before Henry's adoption neither side had had the military might to inflict defeat on the other: the civil war had fizzled out with lots of barons simply refusing to fight any more for either side. Some of the most interesting episodes of Henry's early life come from the period leading up to his being adopted as the heir: I'm thinking of his capture of some of Stephen's castles using mercenaries he couldn't pay for when he was only 14 years old and his subsequent cheeky appeal to Stephen to pay off those mercenaries after his mother the Empress and Robert of Gloucester had both refused to bail him out of the sticky situation! (Stephen did pay them off and sent Henry back to France); and his crowning in Carlisle 2 years later, followed by his escapes from Eustace's assassination attempts on his way back South ~ Veledan • Talk 20:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Not only this part is barely dealt with but it is poorly writen Henry's father, Geoffrey Plantagenet, held rich lands as a vassal from Louis VII of France. Maine and Anjou were therefore Henry's by birthright, amongst other lands in Eastern France.[2]... as far as I remember Anjou is in Western France and not Eastern France and all the lands Henry II were in the west. 81.80.19.3 (talk) 09:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Reference citations

The article would very much benefit from the inclusion of some reference citations. Badbilltucker 15:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

In my article on the Angevin Empire you'll find a lot of citations on his reign, if you aren't lazy just pick a look for I won't work on Henry II's page myself. Matthieu 20:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Henry II of England

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

First legal textbook?

The article says about Henry II that "His reign saw the production of the first written legal textbook, providing the basis of today's Common Law." In what sense was it the "first"? Was it the first in England? Apparently not since, for instance, the doom book of Alfred the Great came first. Top.Squark 17:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think they mean textbook, as in a tutorial of the Law. Not simply a book of codes. thats what I understood it to mean.

Maybe the first for English common law? I don't know, it's definitely not the first though. Adam Bishop 03:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

At the top of the page it says he's born on the 5th of March, and on the next paragraph it saying born on the 25th of March. Which is the correct date? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.129.40.168 (talk) 12:41, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

This has now been corrected to say 5th of March, but then at one point it adds "the first day of the traditional year". It was the 25th, not 5th March which was this day. Clarification is still needed. If the sources are contradictory, say so. PatGallacher 19:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Changed all to say 25th of March, as the source listed: The Plantagenets, Harvey gives this as Henry's date of birth. Studentchemist (talk) 22:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

W. L. Warren in Henry II (ISBN 0-520-03494-5) gives 4 March as the birthdate. (page 11). Richard Barber in Henry Plantagenet (ISBN 1-56619-363-X) gives 5 March (p. 22). The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography Online access here gives 5 March. I think we need to replace the sourcing here. Harvey's book was first published in 1948 I believe. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I am admittedly not an expert on this..I just happened to find Harvey's The Plantagenets on my parents old book shelve!! I would welcome a newer source. Studentchemist (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Illegitimate Children

This section has been added to the article i researched, which is great, except i can only find evidence on two of them. If there are decent references for the others it would be a great help, rather than just take them down straight away. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tefalstar (talk • contribs) 23:15, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Crusade connections

Tefalstar, as I've said, this was a good rewrite, but now the article is missing his connection to the crusades. I guess that's a pretty minor aspect of his life overall, but he is still very important from the point of view of the Latin Orient - he was a cousin of the ruling dynasty, he promised to go on crusade as penance for Becket's murder, he kept a large treasury in Jerusalem (which was used to levy troops to defend against Saladin's invasion, and to ransom prisoners), he was even offered the kingdom himself at one point, and he levied the Saladin tithe which is notable in English history as well. Can we work this in somehow, or start a new section? Adam Bishop 22:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The Lion in Winter?

Why isn't here anything in this article about the play The Lion in Winter or the film adaptations of it? It features Henry, Elanor, Geoffrey, John and Richard. henrymrx (talk) 19:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Henry II in Ireland

Please, try and avoid bias. Henry was not particularly interested in Ireland (agreed by most major historians eg. Warren, Flanagan, Gillingham) so to say that it was part of his ruthless expansion is a bit silly. I put in the important bit about Strongbow - the real reason he went there... 131.111.1.66 (talk) 11:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Plantagenet

I think the Admin/User Slysplace has not much knowledege about the history of the Plantagenet. That's sad for the reputation of Wikipedia. Though Wikipedia is a great site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.108.137 (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin and what does adding <br /> awhile to the end of dates continually have to do with "Plantagenet" or the house of, your edits added no quality to the article and fit the profile of test edits better suited for the Wikipedia:Sandbox next time try logging in to make serious contributions Slysplace ^{talk ♫} 21:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Citing Harvey

I have to query citations in the article drawing information from John Harvey's book The Plantagenets, especially the description and section on character. Harvey's work is widely discounted in the academic community - dare I say even laughed at.... see Speculum, Vol. 23, No. 4 (Oct., 1948), pp. 699-701, and The Modern Language Review, Vol. 44, No. 1 (Jan., 1949), pp. 104-105. CanadrianUK (talk) 19:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I concur - Nitpyck (talk) 06:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Article lacks much

This article largely misses the tremendous significance of Henry's reign.

By bringing a central administration into permanent and regular connection with the native English local courts, and by instituting certain legal actions and forms which led to trial by jury, Henry laid the foundations for the great Anglo-American legal system known as the common law. He established a distribution of power that checked the growth of absolutism, yet kept good order. He planted the seeds that in the following centuries would grow into Parliamentary democracy. Henry solved problems of governance that had never been solved before, not even by the Romans. The effects of his work are still with us today. 76.199.67.92 (talk) 04:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Henry II and the University of Paris

I reckon Henry II banning his subjects from attending the University of Paris merits a mention (played a large part in the increase in importance of the University of Oxford). Maybe someone who knows a bit more about this decision could add it in? Thanks. Hadrian89 (talk) 15:18, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Subjective historical opinion from John Harvey

I have just removed "In a subjective historical opinion" to describe the material from John Harvey as, in itself, it's possibly subjective opinion: it wasn't cited or otherwise justified. The British Library, extending itself beyond its usual rôle of cataloguing books, writes: "Source details: Extract from 'The Plantagenets', by John Harvey published in 1959. Context: John Harvey was a professional historian. The book this extract comes from was a university level textbook."[1] Is there a source available to support the contrary, "subjective" contention? --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Names

Why is only Curtmantle listed here? I was looking for "FitzEmpress" and had to go elsewhere to find it:

According to Encylopedia Britannica, Henry was known as "Henry of Anjou, Henry Plantagenet, Henry FitzEmpress, or Henry Curtmantle (Short Mantle)".

68.20.25.152 (talk) 02:21, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Descendants

I'd like to suggest deletion of the descendants section. It is an incomplete list (the Lionheart is not there!) and while it could be expanded the information is already in the infobox anyway so why not remove it as duplication? Bagunceiro (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Concur. Its value is impaired if it can't be relied upon. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Murder of Thomas Becket

This section seems to go out of its way to excuse Henry II of Becket's murder. I think it should take a more neutral POV. 79.11.131.178 (talk) 20:10, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Henry's Youthful Attempt

In the Early life and descent section, I read that Henry made an attempt on England in 1147, without either of his parents' knowledge. Then in Taking the English throne, I read that in 1147 Henry accompanied Matilda on an invasion of England. If both these statements are true, could there be an explanation of how they are compatible?--Mona Williams (talk) 15:30, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

They're not compatible as far I'm aware. If memory serves, Matilda begins 1147 in England, coming back to Normandy in the autumn. Henry is usually described as having been "sent" by Geoffrey to England in the spring, where he then campaigns with his mercenary force and is ultimately bailed out by Stephen and returning to Normandy. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:13, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Article expansion...

I've gone through and given the article a thorough scrub - I think everything's now referenced to up-date reliable academic sources. I've added a couple of maps, and gone for near contemporary pictures throughout where possible. It will need a decent copy-edit and check-ovr, however, I'm sure... Hchc2009 (talk) 10:36, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I've assessed it as a B for MILHIST, as a preliminary for it going through the higher processes. The C classifications of the other projects with which it was related I think predate the recent improvement and need to be reassessed.Monstrelet (talk) 10:55, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

Toolbox
dashboard disambig links external links See WP:DEADREF for dead URLs

This review is transcluded from Talk:Henry II of England/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 01:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Oh. I'll bite. (insert maniacal laughter here). Expect this in parts... Ealdgyth - Talk 01:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I'll do this in parts - since I know you're headed to FAC with this, we'll prose review and source review as if we were at FAC, so we can spare everyone at FAC my long review there.

Excellent news - will wait and run through the comments in sequence when you've finished. Thanks again! Hchc2009 (talk) 19:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Starting work on the below. As usual, gaps don't necessarily mean disagreement, just that I'll come back to fix them shortly! Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

First part: lead:

• First paragraph - every single sentence starts with "Henry" - can we vary this a bunch, please? Also - you give regnal dates for England, wouldn't it make sense to do so for all the other titles?

• First bit done, will work on the second half. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Need to explain why the heck Matilda's called Empress Matilda - otherwise folks are going to think "why wasn't he an emperor"?

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...the recent divorced wife of the French king..." oooh, no, no divorce! Annulled! Annulled!

• This comes up later too - a lot of historians end up using the divorced term here. I've changed the construction slightly, as I couldn't think of an equivalent adjective for a person to "divorced" for an annullment! Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Have you decided to link "King" before names?
• don't like the easter egg link of [[Angevin Empire|an empire]] - can we explicate this a bit?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...stretching across western Europe." Hm... since Western Europe is usually considered to include Ireland, Scotland, Spain, France.... I think this is a stretch... can we be a bit more precise?

• Have modified. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Despite numerous peace conferences and treaties no permanent peace was reached. Henry undertook various legal reforms in both England and Normandy, establishing the basis for the future English Common Law, and reformed the royal finances and currency." The transition here is a bit rough, any way we can smooth it out some?

• Have taken a stab. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oooh... nooooo..."...between the Church in England led to conflict..." cannot link to Church of England here - it is not (no matter what the Anglican's claim...). Need a different link or none at all.

• I've found a better one! Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "This controversy lasted for much of the 1160s..." shouldn't we link Becket controversy here at controversy rather than at "Becket's death"? (We may end up with an article on "Becket's martyrdom" - you never know.

• Done. Yep, there are some good diagrams of the cathedral which would fit well in such an article.Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...first Louis VII and then Philip Augustus." suggest "...first Louis VII and then Louis' son and successor Philip Augustus."

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Point of order ..."In 1173 Henry's first son, the Young Henry,..." the Young King wasn't the first son, just the eldest living at the time. Don't forget little William who died young.

• Fixed.Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Also, "In 1173 Henry's first son, the Young Henry,..." let's do "In 1173 Henry's first son Henry, usually known as "Young Henry" ..." or something similar. Introduce nicknames in an obvious way, so that folks don't think Henry II was bonkers and named his child "Young Henry"... (I bet someone would...)
• You're sadly right. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
• I think we need a bit of "legacy" in the lead here .. .we're dealing with one of the major figures in history, after all. Another paragraph detailing how he's seen and stuff in history wouldn't go amiss.

More to follow tomorrow - should finish this mostly up tomorrow. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, might want to check out Template:Efn Ealdgyth - Talk 02:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Early years:

• Need to again say WHY she's called the Empress Matilda.

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Matilda was married at a young age to the Holy Roman Emperor; on his death she was remarried to Geoffrey." couple of problems with this - she didn't marry Geoffrey right away - Henry V died in 1125 and she didn't marry Geoffrey until 1128. Your wording implies that it was right away - 3 years isn't right away.

• Have tweaked. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• need to state that the Anarchy isn't a term all historians use or like - it's not universally known as the Anarchy. Also need a cite for this sentence.

• I've had a go at this, while trying not to repeat the later historiography session. See what you think. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• How did the canon's "support" him?

• Tweaked. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Henry returned to England in 1147, then aged fourteen." - errr, as far as we know he never left... when did he leave, why did he leave, and where did he go?
• Point of order - King David of Scotland is Henry's great-uncle - he's Matilda's uncle.

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

More to come. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC) (I have to go run to the grocery store - the spousal unit is out of caffeine and this is NOT a good thing.)

Appearance:

• Not sure that the pipe link for "judicial" is strictly accurate here - there isn't the sharp distinction between criminal and civil justice in those days - perhaps just unlinking and using plain "judicial" is better.

• I've gone for justice as a link instead. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Henry had a passionate desire to rebuild his control of the territories that his grandfather, Henry I, and his father, Geoffrey of Anjou, had once controlled." something off here - one - his father never lost control of the territories so ... this is not strictly accurate, and something is awkward with the sentence, rewrite somehow?

• Have trimmed. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• the connection between the last sentence of the second paragraph and its preceeding sentence is jarring, can we connect it a bit better?

• Agree - have had a stab at this. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

More to come... eventually... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Succession:

• OOoh, bad bad ... another link to Church of England which is an anachronism. No matter what the Anglican's say, they did NOT begin with Augustine. No historian would link to that article for discussions of English church history (grins).
• Hm.. I'd like to see a better citation for the "...and it increasingly appeared as though the English Church was considering an eventual peace treaty that included some or all of Henry's claims." bit - I do NOT think Barlow agrees with that. It's more that Pope Eugene wanted to keep his options open, I think, and it was Eugene who forbade Theobald to consecrate Eustace. I'd really rather see this opinion placed out better than Stringer and Davis - what do Matthew, King and Crouch say. I've just read the relevant parts of Barlow's English Church 1066-1154 and he's much more restrained about this - recognizing that Stephen had lost control of the ecclesiastical appointments after the Council of Reims in 1148 (the article on it's a GA, by the way!) but not saying that the church had necessarily decided in fitzEmpress' favor either.
• I think we need a bit more background earlier to explicate how Geoffrey came to be able to give fitzEmpress Normandy - we should at least have a bit that tells us that Stephen originally had the duchy - we never state that during the Early Years section, leaving it a bit unclear why Geoffrey attacked Normandy.

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• "Eleanor controlled the Duchy of Aquitaine..." why not "Eleanor was the Duchess of Aquitaine, a duchy in the south of France..." as she was the duchess... your wording makes the implication that she wasn't really duchess, but just had "control".

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• The sentence starting "The marriage instantly reignited..." is long, convoluted, and could use some breaking up as well as explication - we won't even get into the controversy over whether there WAS such a thing as "feudal law" at this point... we need to know why it was counter, why it threatened Louis and Eleanor's two daughters, etc.
• "...who claimed that Henry had dispossessed him of his inheritance and rose in revolt in Anjou." the last bit is jarring with the first bit - can we make it less tacked on feeling?
• Linkie "Neufmarchė-sur-Epte" or at least describe what the heck it is!

• Explained (I remember spending ages trying to find a link for this originally!). Hchc2009 (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Louis's forces moved to attacked Aquitaine." Something's garbled here...

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• I think I'm missing something here (well, not really ME, but any other reader..) "Stephen responded by placing Wallingford Castle, a key fortress.." why would Stephen's move make any difference to Henry?

• Have added a little bit of explanation in - see if it works. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Taking the throne:

• I don't really think the main article here is "The Anarchy" - probably that fits better in "early years" than here.

• Moved. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Henry reaffirmed that he would avoid the English cathedrals and would not expect the bishops to attend his court." err.. avoid the cathedrals how? Avoid pillaging them? Or just going near them? If the latter, why would the clergy CARE?

• King doesn't say; by context, I think to avoid political embarrassment, but King's not clear. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Shouldn't it be "River Avon"?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...the two men agreed to a temporary truce and returned to London, leaving Henry to travel north through..." they BOTH went to London??? REALLY???? I think not.

• I think you're quite right! Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Over the summer, Stephen massed troops..." I think you mean "Over the next summer..."? Or do you mean the summer of 1153? If so, something is screwy in your chronology, since we just had discussions of the winter of 1153... Or did Henry return to England in 1152?

• Fixed as per your suggestion. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "As a result, instead of a battle ensuing, members of the church..." I think you mean "members of the clergy"...or even "members of the episcopate"

Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...removing the most obvious other claimant to the throne." need an explanatory footnote here that although Stephen had another son, he wasn't considered acceptable as a king for whatever reason...

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, the treaty of Winchester is 1153, but Stephen didn't die until 1154, you've definitely got some chronological issues in this section - Stephen was king after the Treaty of Winchester for almost a whole year - but this last paragraph here implies that things were rather quicker...

• Something's gone awry - I'll take a good at this. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Reconstruction:

• Need the coronation date actually IN the article.

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Another thing the royal government had lost control of was ecclesiastical appointments - I can provide citations if needed but this was an important part of the first Henry's governmental structure and the loss seriously weakened Stephen. Henry's desire to reassert control over the church was the main reason for his conflict with Becket (well, and Becket being inheriently unstable... can you tell I'm doing the reading for Becket's article?)
• Another thing was the resumption of the various records of the treasury - Dialogus and Richard fitzNeal and all that. Pipe roll records start up again from Henry's reign and there is some evidence that they had lapsed during Stephen's reign. I can send you the relevant articles if you'd like - more details are at Pipe rolls.

• Added. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Need to briefly mention royal justice also - what did Henry do about it when he took over?

• Added. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "...agreeing to the pre-civil war division of lands." Not happy with the phrasing of "division of lands" - for a medievalist that suggests inheritance and such like - maybe "....agreeing to the pre-civil war border between England and Wales." or something similar.

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

More to come... making progress! Ealdgyth - Talk 01:54, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

France:

• "The two men had already clashed over Henry's succession to Normandy and the remarriage of Eleanor; Louis invariably attempted to take the moral high ground in respect to Henry, capitalising on his reputation as a crusader and circulating rumours about his rival's behaviour and character." I think you're trying to pack too much into this sentence - can we break it down a bit so it's not so twisty?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Probably should note that Theobald V, Count of Blois is the nephew of King Stephen - Theobald V is the son of Theobald II, Count of Champagne, or Theobald IV of Blois - the elder brother of Stephen of Blois - so Theo V was helping a close relative.

• I'm being slow... I don't disagree with the general point, but which relative is Theo V helping in this context? Hchc2009 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "On returning from England, Henry.." returning to where?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "The treaty continued to look shaky, however and tensions remained..." how can it continue to look shaky since this is the first mention of it looking shaky?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Did you link "homage" on it's first mention in the article?

• No, have moved the link up to the first mention. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, i'm not really very happy with "Young Henry" instead of "Henry the Young King" - generally I see the latter in usage, not the first. I note that the ODNB has "Henry [Henry the Young King]" ...
• Speaking of ODNB, do you want a copy of their article?
• Serious garble here "The marriage deal would grant the disputed territory of the Vexin being to Margaret on her marriage to the Young Henry..." do you mean "The marriage deal would have granted the disputed territory of the Vexin to Margaret on her marriage to the Young Henry.."?

• Yep, changed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...while this would ultimately give Henry the lands that he claimed, it also cunningly implied that the Vexin was Louis's to give away in the first place, in itself an important political concession." A concession by whom? And why was it important?
• "...which neighboured his lands in north-west and..." err ... it bordered Aquitaine to the north-west, but it was to the south-west of Normandy and to the west of Anjou. Suggest just "...which neighboured his lands ..."

• Changed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Almost immediately after the peace conference, however, Louis shifting his position considerably." I think you mean "shifted"?

• Yep. Changed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Louis's wife Constance died and Louis remarried Adèle, the sister of the Counts of Blois and Champagne." Surely he didn't remarry her - that implies that they had been married before.

• Agree - fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...the sister of the Counts of Blois and Champagne.[113] Louis also betrothed his two daughters to Theobald's sons." Need to specify which territory Theobald held - this section could do with a bit more names.
• "Theobald mobilised his forces along the border with Touraine; Henry responded by attacking Chaumont in Blois in a surprise attack..." Wait.. when did Theobald switch sides? (I actually know but the reader doesn't since you've not explicitly stated when/if it happened...)

Empire:

• "...Henry initially ruled through his father's former advisers..." Why would he have used his father's advisors in England? Do you mean grandfather's?

• Edmund King doesn't expand on this too much, but I've expanded it a bit to explain further. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "During his reign Henry increasingly promoted "new men", minor nobles without independent wealth and lands, to positions of authority in England." Need to point out this was a policy of his grandfather's also.

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Examples of how Henry interfered with the Norman nobility?

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Quickie explanation of "prévôts"

• Added. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Court:

• Other theories focus on the personalities of Henry and his children.<ref>Warren ref; Strickland, pp.187–188.</ref> missing a page number there with Warren...

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "...operated an exchequer court..." linkie and quickie explanation?

• Done. The link isn't perfect, but a better article may one day be written for it! Hchc2009 (talk) 09:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Economy:

• "imposing legal fines and amercements," ...need a quickie explanation of amercements

• I've added in an adjective to help draw out the difference; shout it you think needs more. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "...attempting to improve the standard of the accounts..." Huh? Not clear on what you mean here.

• Have clarified. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• No mention of Richard fitzNeal??? For shame! (Seriously, does need a mention).

• He was in earlier versions I wrote, and got edited out due to space. I'll edit him back in! Hchc2009 (talk) 09:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that's enough for tonight. Yikes, this is a monster. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Developments:

• "Louis finally acquired a son, Philip Augustus, in 1165 and..." this makes it sound like he went out and bought him...

• I was struggling for a verb other than "sire", which made me think of horses...! Have had a go at this.Hchc2009 (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...was more confident of his own position than for many years." awkward

• Trimmed. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Louis allied himself with the Welsh, Scots and Bretons and attacked Normandy." Slightly ambigious... suggest rewording to "Louis allied himself with the Welsh, Scots and Bretons and the French king attacked Normandy."

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• "Henry was then free to move against the rebel barons in Brittany, where feelings about Henry's seizure of the duchy were still running high, conducting devastating campaigns in 1167 and 1168." Suggest breaking the last phrase off ... as this is a rather runonish sentence.

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• "Montmirail could potentially have confirmed Louis's position as king, while undermining the legitimacy of any rebellious barons within Henry's territories and the potential for an alliance between them and Louis." need to explain how this potentially could have...

• Have expanded slightly. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• "...creating an additional ally in the south" - some other word than creating perhaps?

• Done.Hchc2009 (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Becket:

• Need to be careful to present the fact that Henry's reasons for appointing Becket aren't knowable. Another reason he appointed Becket was likely that Becket was his friend and the king figured he would remain his friend and not cause issues.
• "...traditionally the only person allowed to conduct the ceremony." well... only sorta. It was traditionally the right of the ABC, but often in the past someone else had done. Strictly speaking, Becket was asserting his right to crown Henry the Young King and the king was more in the right to point out that he could have the ceremony performed by others - William I, Henry I at least were crowned by someone other than the ABC.
• There are other translations available of Henry's words - suggest including a few in an explanatory footnote.
• "The operation resulted in Becket's death..." err... can we reword this to sound less stilted?

• Almost certainly! :) Have edited. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Need to point out that one reason for the horror at Becket's death was that he was murdered in the cathedral at an altar.

• Done.Hchc2009 (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

HOpefully more later today... Ealdgyth - Talk 13:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Ireland:

• "Dermot put together a force of Anglo-Normans and Flemish mercenaries drawn from the Welsh Marches,..." Shouldn't this be "Dermot put together a force of Anglo-Norman and Flemish mercenaries drawn from the Welsh Marches,.."?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• "...these soldiers were used to deploying mixed forces of infantry, archers and knights in the Welsh campaigns." Two things - this phrase does not fit well with the preceeding phrase in the sentence - and I'm unclear on where you're going with the archers and stuff - is it important for Dermot's campaign? If not, suggest just cutting this phrase.

• You're right (I was having a combined warfare moment, and its not necessary here!). Hchc2009 (talk)

• "Some of the Irish lords appealed to the king to protect..." which king?

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Great revolt -

• Haven't detailed why Richard revolted. Nor why Eleanor went along with the revolt.

• Added in. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Need to mention that Henry was supported by his illigitimate son Geoffrey during the great revolt - and what was Longespee's position then?

• Added Geoffrey in; I'm not sure Longspee had been born yet? Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Aftermath:

• "Henry agreed to give him two castles..." Too many Henry's and hims here - suggest "The elder Henry agreed to give the younger Henry two castles..." which I think is the meaning.

• Yep, fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Angevin pounds" linkage?

• Hadn't realised there was an article on this - fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• "Richard and Geoffrey were granted half the revenues from Aquitaine and Brittany respectively..." this is the first mention of Richard and Geoffrey being involved in the revolt though...beyond the initial moves.

• It mentions they'd gone to Paris etc. - do you think we need to add more? Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "Eleanor, however, remained under effective house arrest until the 1180s." This is the first mention of her being under house arrest...

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• "...but in 1176 Henry announced an extraordinary claim that he had agreed in 1169 to give Richard's fiancée Alice the whole province as part of the marriage settlement." awkward - suggest "...but in 1176 Henry claimed that he had agreed in 1169 to give Richard's fiancée Alice the whole province as part of the marriage settlement."

Family tension:

• Need to mention that Geoffrey left two young children here so they aren't a surprise in the next section

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Henry and Philip:

• "Henry's relationship with his two remaining sons..." can we use another word besides "remaining"? Also - Henry had two other illigitimate sons still alive at this point...

• Think I've found a better way of phrasing this. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Death:

• Probably worth pointing out that none of his legitimate sons were at his deathbed, but Geoffrey was...

There.. done. Yikes! Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The usual 7 day hold is definitely waived if needed - this is a huge article and if you need more time, we can definitely find it. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: the possessive for "Louis" is used many times, about half as Louis's and the other half as Louis'. I personally prefer the former as a general rule, but especially given that it's a French name so I don't mentally pronounce the final "s". I do see that Ealdgyth prefers the latter. The important thing here is to choose one and use it consistently throughout. Wonderful article, BTW; thanks for all the excellent work. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

A good point! I'll ask Malleus and see what he thinks is the right variation... Hchc2009 (talk) 17:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Side note - the ancestor chart is broken ... not sure how or why ... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Fixed - someone had left two square brackets out... Hchc2009 (talk) 19:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

So.. what's progress on this? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I think, almost there. One or two issues left above, but I've got through most of them with a bit of a spurt this weekend. Will try to get the remainder done in the next couple of evenings. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Reviewer: Mythio (talk) 10:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC), some small comments on the lead:

• Despite invading Ireland to provide lands for his youngest son, John, Henry struggled to find ways to satisfy all his sons' desires for land and immediate power. I don't really see why John is between 2 commas here, removing the first would yield a more readable structure imo.
• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Henry rapidly came into conflict with Louis VII, isn't the word "quickly" or "soon" more appropriate than "rapidly"? Rapidly came into conflict has a strange feel to it

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Henry's military expedition to England in 1153 led to King Stephen agreeing peace terms in 1153 and Henry inheriting the kingdom on Stephen's death a year later. Seems to be a word missing between agreeing and peace terms.

• Fixed. Hchc2009 (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• The last sentence of the lead is now Decisively defeated by Philip and Richard and suffering from a bleeding ulcer, Henry retreated to Anjou where he died. I suggest adding in Chinon on July 6th 1189. This sentence could be tweaked, i.e. is the exact location known? Perhaps his castle in Anjou or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mythio (talk • contribs) 13:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• Done. Hchc2009 (talk) 13:31, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Hope it helps and I'll look at more of the article if I can. Mythio (talk) 10:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)