Talk:Henry VI, Holy Roman Emperor

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Old talk about family trees and tables[edit]

These messages from January 2003 were originally at Talk:Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor, but have been moved here since they are related to this article. Graham87 14:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


It works poorly in my browser. But what can I do? Taku


What is the purpose of the second table? I'm very confused. --mav

A fair question. It shows the parents and grandparents (Naturally blue = male; pink = female) as well as the spouse and children. I've been finding that these genealogical tables can be helpful in sorting through the Royal Medieval Links. This table is experimental, and could still stand some tweaking. Eclecticology

It's to show his parents and children. I've cleaned it up a bit. How does it look to you all now? Tbarron 01:16 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

Improved! It seems that you had an easier time getting the table to work right than I did. Eclecticology
I just tweaked the width and colspan attributes. :) Tbarron

Some tabular schemes for genealogy have been kicked around at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Genealogy, but I don't think they are ready for prime time yet, and it's nearly impossible to show both ancestry and descendants in the same table. I suspect if it's ever really necessary to show this sort of information it would be best to do it as a graphic file. -- Someone else 01:32 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

Image:

HenryVItree.png

But there's no linking available in this way.

Henry V/VI's Ahnenreihe would be (without bothering for now to make the ancestors accord with naming conventions):

1 Henry VI of Germany (November 1165 - September 28, 1197)
2 Frederick III Barbarossa (1122 - June 10, 1190)
3 Beatrix of Burgundy. (about 1145 - November 15, 1184)
4 Frederick II of Hohenstaufen (1090 - April 4, 1147)
5 Judith of Bavaria. (about 1100 - about 1132) 
6 Renaud III of Burgundy. (about 1090 - January 22, 1148)
7 Agatha of Alsace
8 Friedrich I von Hohenstaufen. (about 1050 - April 6, 1105)
9 Agnes of Waiblingen (1074/1075 - September 24, 1143)
10 Henry I of Bavaria (1074 - December 13, 1126]])
11 Wulfhilda (d. December 29, 1126)
14 Simon I of Upper Lorraine. (about 1076 - January 13, 1138)

or as an Ahnentafel:


Generations
     I
     II
III IV

Proband:
Henry VI of Germany

Father:
Frederick III Barbarossa

F. Father:
Frederick II of Hohenstaufen
F. F. Father:
Friedrich I von Hohenstaufen
F. F. Mother:
Agnes of Waiblingen
F. Mother:
Judith of Bavaria
F. M. Father:
Henry I of Bavaria
F. M. Mother:
Wulfhilda
Mother:
Beatrix of Burgundy
M. Father:
Renaud III of Burgundy
M. F. Father:
unknown
M. F. Mother:
unknown
M. Mother:
Agatha of Alsace
M. M. Father:
Simon I of Upper Lorraine
M. M. Mother:
unknown




Hmmm! In dealing with terminology, most english language genealogical presentations that I have seen use "Ahnentafel" for what you call "Ahnenreihe". Be that as it may, it may be difficult to communicate the numbering system used in it to people unfamiliar with genealogical practice.

What you have called "Ahnentafel" is not that different from what I have done except that it extends the ancestry for one more generation, and that it is horizontally rather than vertically oriented.

The graphic representation would look very nice, but I agree that it has a linking problem. If linking could be made directly from a usual chart, I would support this option.

I also agree that there are serious difficulties in trying to represent both ascendants and descendants in the same chart. This is why I chose in my experiment the limit ancestors to two generations and descendants to a single generation. Ascendants proceed neatly in pairs, but children can quickly make life complicated. Eclecticology


Two separate tables ("Parentage", and "Spouses and children") would be clearer I think, because the information in each is not graphically similar. I leave it to you to try, tables in timidate me<G>. Also, some will have children by mistresses/lovers what have you..., so what to call "Spouses and Children" then...? Someone else 03:53 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, two tables would be clearer, and it's not a big change if someone wants to do it. I would treat fecund mistresses as just one more wife with a slight change interminology to fit the circumstances. One reason for choosing Henry for starting my experiment was the relative simplicity of his immediate descendants. My first objective was getting the table to just work. I'll try someone with multiple spouses next. You didn't see the number of attempts that didn't make it past the preview stage. Colours also give us more flexibility; if we restrict the use of light blue and pink to ancestors we still have all the other colours for painting the kids. Eclecticology
For somebody who was royally productive see Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor Eclecticology

Very glad to see that someone found my suggestion with a pedigree chart (the proper english name for ahnentafvel?) interesting. I suppose there could still be some sence in discussiong this topic at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Genealogy Dan Koehl 05:10 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

About spouses and descendants, also see Eric XIV of Sweden for alternatives. Is a table here really easier to understand than the old metod? Dan Koehl 12:17 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

I see them as equally easy to read, but then I'm familiar with genealogical material. What's missing from the Eric article is the ancestry, which I consider more important for this kind of article. With Frederick II the table's alternating colour pairs help to focus on the variety of his affairs. Eclecticology 18:27 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

Agree, but then again it seems the interest is somehow limited on the wikipedia tp rpresent such informtion. I did Erics ancestry at the discussion swedish discussion page though, at http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Erik_XIV Dan Koehl 20:36 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

Yes I would feel more confident about continuing if more people were involved. Maybe if we included more of these they would receive more attention. The English royal family always gets more attention. I've preferred going back only two generations from the subject. Is there a good reason for going back three as you have done? Eclecticology 21:26 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

I simply just went back as much as the space for such a table gives possibility. There is a standard at Internet with GED to HTML and its normally 4-5. see http://www.koehl.nu/koehlk/sida0/h______1.htm for an example, I used this standard implementation and constructed the table to fit in the wikipedia pages.

But, back to my question, (cause I am a little confused here) why is a table comtaining spouse and children better than writing:

blabla...

Married 1944 to Margot Nordholm, daughter of Birger Nordholm.

Children:

  1. Christl, born 1944
  2. Lisl, born 1945
  3. Göran, born 1947
  4. Claes, born 1951
  5. Dan, born 1959

(See John III of Sweden for an example with several spouses.)

It does take more space, but I find it easier to understand. Altough its interesting with te table concept, especially if its supposed to be a standard on the wikipedia, (but then again, I have hours of work, since I have added hundreds of Swedish middleages families on the swedish wikipedia.)

This article is not about Henry...[edit]

It sounds exactly like the history of King Heinrich the Sixth. Also a Holy Roman Emperor...Presidentbalut (talk) 21:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

  • After eight talk pages, even sarcasm is starting to get boring, so I'll just say spamming multiple pages like this really does not help anything. Indrian (talk) 22:57, 8 August 2013 (UTC)