Talk:History of modern Christianity

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{{split section}}s[edit]

{{split section}}s anyone?

Splits could be: Early history of Christianity (1 Life of Jesus (6–4 BC to AD 29–36) to 3.8 Monasticism); Classical history of Christianity (4 Growing tensions between East and West to 12 Church and the Italian Renaissance (1399–1599)); Modern history of Christianity (13 Protestant Reformation (1521–1579) to 17.2 Restorationism); Contemporary history of Christianity (18 Contemporary history (1848-present) to 20.4.2 Ecumenism within Protestantism).

Any opinions? J. D. Redding 00:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

But note well that Early Christianity and History of Early Christianity both exsist-- and era-based subsets there of.
See also my comments on my efforts at Talk:#This page may be too long, not far above. Carlaude:Talk 01:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Yep. see above ...> J. D. Redding 01:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Sections still need to be split. J. D. Redding 03:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Have created separate Medieval and Modern articles: this will be Early history of Christianity.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 05:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Rated Start[edit]

Rating reduced as some topics are not yet written.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 05:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that the current name is just grand.[edit]

And it fits in nicely with the category structure too. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Lead[edit]

The history of modern Christianity concerns the Christianity, and while the late modern history of Christianity can be taken begin at different points, this article mainly covers 1640 to the current date. For the period from c. 1500 to c. 1640, see the articles on the Protestant Reformation, the Counter-Reformation and the Catholic Church and the Age of Discovery.
The lead needs to be based what the article covers, not what one person thinks it should be covering. My edit to correct this is shown above. It was completely removed by BarrelProof. No reason was given for this being removed even in part. Even if we really wanted to change article to cover "1720 to the current date", the current lead would be a confusing way to reflect it. Furthermore, for reasons I discuss below, we do not really want to change article to cover "1720 to the current date" IMHO. tahc chat 21:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
The lead change by Tahc is post facto rationalisation for his proposed name change below. Until the substantive issue is resolved below, the name and scope should remain as it was before Tahc's intervention, as is the proper process. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:38, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

History of Christianity of the Late Modern eraHistory of modern Christianity

1. This is a change back to the previous and longstanding name.
2. That change to the current name was never discussed, nor was their consensus.
3. That change never had a reason or basis except to "match" the name of the so-called "main category" of the article. (Category names and article names have completely different policies in naming.)
4. This article does not, nor ever did, cover just 1720 to the present. Not even the intro was changed to clearly reflect the idea of covering 1720 to the present. Lots on 1640–1740 is included, and for good reason...
5. If we removed content on 1640–1740, we would have to create a new article. If we really needed such an article one might have been made already. Of course such an article is not needed since we alreay have this
6. Dividing up this article into Early modern Christianity and Late modern Christianity along the lines on stated therein would also put discussion of the First Great Awakening in a different article than the Second Great Awakening & Third Great Awakening. tahc chat 21:21, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
The events of world history that indicate the shift from Early Modern to Late Modern are different than events important of to Christianity history. The most relable sourses for Wikipedia to know standard time periods of Christianity history are the eras most often used in textbooks on Christianity history, not the Wikipedia categories nor Wikipedia artilcles on world history. tahc chat 22:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Reply Is there really such a thing as "standard time periods of Christianity history"? Is it not more accurate to say that it follows on the coat-tails of the rest of the categorisation of history into eras? If such secular categorisation is wrong for Early Modern and Late Modern, then it is also wrong for Mediaeval. All use secular definitions of eras. Only Apostolic Age is truly Christian-oriented without reference to other secular movements. This means that the entire logic for articles and categories for Christian history will have to be scraped / re-written / re-named. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:59, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
The ideas, say, that "it follows on the coat-tails of the rest of the categorisation of history into eras" and that "Only the Apostolic Age is truly Christian-oriented" are your opinions and are not basied on RSs. tahc chat 04:28, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Spare us. The enitre article is subjective. There is no definitive agreement of whta is "Modern" for Christianity. To say that you, I or anybody else knows the answer is pure pretence. For every article that starts with Constantinople, there's one that starts with 1500, 1550, 1600 etc. So stop being precious. This is about presenting info in easily digestible chunks that are familliar and make sense. The constructs of mainstream history scholarship are as useful a construct as any other construct. There is no authority on the matter. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Reply to question user Tahc says that that article or article already exists. It's called the Protestant Reformation. If this article is renamed, it wil be presumed to cover the whole of modern history, which is usually taken to begin with the Fall of Constantinople. As the article does not go back that far, the re-name would be erroneous. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:59, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Not as erroneous as it is now. Protestant Reformation covers only that - how much does it have on Catholicism, never mind Orthodoxy? 1453 is the earliest common start date for "Early modern", 1500 or 1550 would be as common, & many would start at 1600 (separating the Renaissance from it), which for Western Christianity makes more sense, & I would support specifying that post 1600 period as the scope here (not for Orthodoxy). Johnbod (talk) 12:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
This is just silly. If the article does not go back to Constantinople, then the article name should not suggest that it does. Simples. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:46, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
But the article does "go back to Constantinople", or at least its fall, if you read as far as the Orthodoxy section. And rightly so. Johnbod (talk) 23:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. No need for move. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:21, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I presume you mean no need for the move to the current title. --B2C 14:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. The troubles all stem from one user's actions in November 2012 [1]. First the category references were changed, then the move was "justified" in terms of matching the new category names. No discussion on the talk page. No link to any discussion anywhere. This kind of sweeping unilateral work is not appreciated. But that alone does not justify supporting this move. But WP:COMMONNAME does. "History of modern Christianity", though perhaps not absolutely precise, gives a strong idea about what the topic of this article is. The current title requires familiarity with the relatively technical term, "Late Modern era". It's simply not necessary in this article per nom and other arguments above. --B2C 14:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.