Talk:History of surgery

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Physician/Surgeon Divide[edit]

The history of surgery section needs substantial work; in particular, the social divide that existed between surgeons and physicians needs elaboration. How surgery became a vital, integrated part of medicine, as opposed to a technical barber's skill, is important and of interest. Glacialfury (talk) 17:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Surgery instruments in Roman Empire.[edit]

Surgery in the Roman world is not even mentioned.

I give you some references, I think you can find almost all the tools we use today. They seem instruments of the XVIII century.


http://www.shopping24.ilsole24ore.com/sh4/catalog/Product.jsp?PRODID=SH246088597

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicina_romana


==Needs a part 2 - you stop just when it starts taking off.


http://www.romanoimpero.com/2009/06/strumenti-chirurgici.html

http://www.museicomunalirimini.it/musei/museo_citta/domus_museo_citta/scavi_domus/pagina5.html

http://www.comune.rimini.it/servizi/citta/monumenti/pagina3.html

The example are very very numerous there are also instruments that rasemble Swiss boxcutters for soldiers.

--84.222.77.50 (talk) 08:05, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ligatures[edit]

I've made a series of reverts to the recent Eurocentric POV edits in the ligatures section:

  • Edit that disputed the father of surgery claim. Plenty of references support that.
  • Edit that claimed it's pointless to include Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (of course, Ambroise Paré's inclusion is never questioned).
  • Edit that implied Al-Zahrawi borrowed the idea from Galen when no reference is provided.
  • Edit that removed the following cited statement: "The invention of the ligatures is widely believed to have originated with Abulcasis yet the same editor had no qualms about keeping the bit on Ambroise Paré that says "although the ligature has commonly been attributed to Ambroise Paré".
So both scholars were preceded by Galen as it seems, but apparently only Paré (the White man) is worthy of mention here and the editor maintains the attribution of the invention to him. For this editor, the addition of Galen's entry is sufficient grounds to remove Abulcasis' "widely believed" statement, but not sufficient to remove Paré's "commonly been attributed" statement.

Make no mistake about it, these were clearly disingenuous attempts to undermine the contributions of non-European scholars. Al-Andalusi (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

  • That al-Zarawi is sometimes styled as "Father of surgery" is not disputed the please provide from the source; A, Martín-Araguz; Bustamante-Martínez, C, Fernández-Armayor Ajo, V, Moreno-Martínez, JM (2002). "Neuroscience in Al Andalus and its influence on medieval scholastic medicine". Revista de Neurología 34 (9): 877–92. PMID 12134355. Who says and why they say al-Zahrawi should be considered the father of surgery. If you are citing from the abstract you need to say so.
  • After Ambroise Paré "everyone" does it his way. That is the rejection of cuatery and the use of ligatures for heomostasis in amputations.
  • You have argued invention/transmission before [1] now, as then, the burden is on you to provide a WP:RS
  • The invention of the ligatures is widely believed to have originated with Abulcasis[2] is not supported by the source. It is so far from what the source says that I must point out that you've done this before [3] and remind you that you are responsible for actually reading the sources you cite.
User Al-Andalusi is well aware of the role of Paul of Aegina you have used this source before: al-Zahrāwī, Abū al-Qāsim Khalaf ibn ʻAbbās (1973). مقالة في العمل باليد: A Definitive Edition of the Arabic Text. University of California Press. ISBN 9780520015326. Retrieved 1 December 2012.  you have also used: Pormann, Peter E.; Savage-Smith, Emilie (2007). Medieval Islamic Medicine. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0-7486-2066-4 what is new or unique to "Islamic medicine" will be found WP:RS. J8079s (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)