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A fact from History of writing appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 16 January 2006. The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know

...that the history of writing began in the 4th millennium BC out of neolithic proto-writing?

[edit] Confusing Chronology

This articles discussion of the origins of writing is confusing. For instance, we have the text:

..symbols carved into 8,600-year-old tortoise shells were discovered in China. The shells were found buried with human remains in 24 Neolithic graves..

As we are not told how old the human remains were, it would be natural to think that the writing of a similar antiquity as the shells.

In stark contrast, we are later told that writing began in Mesopotamia around four thousand years ago.

It's a matter of definition,there are other older scripts as old as Chinese ones,but we are not sure whether they are writings.So Before there is a concluded answer, Mesopotamia is a ideal candidate.--Ksyrie 01:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, as Ksyrie points out, its not clear the markings are really writing. They could be purely ornamental with no purpose in encoding language or to communicate any particular meaning. It could also be simply a label for identifying ownership (since one "musical instrument" might be indistinguishable from another and they might have been possessive). The writing in Mesopotamia can be shown to be a very clear purposeful communication and can also be accurately dated because its origins from Proto-writing can also be accurately traced back thanks to the fantastic efforts of Denise Schmandt-Besserat. Perhaps this should be clarified by explaining that what exactly the symbols are is not exactly known, as there has as yet been insufficient archaeological context to build a story about what those symbols are. Qed (talk) 08:00, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Alphabet

The very brief entry on the origins of the alphabet, while not wrong exactly, does an injustice by not mentioning the Phonecian (Hebrew) alphabet dveloped in parallel/in conjunction with the hieroglyphic alphabet. Unlike the Egyptians though, the Phonecians made wide use of the new invention (simple sailors needed to keep trade records and couldn't spare time for the years of study typically required to master an ideographic writing system).

In fact the idea of the alphabet was only invented once in human history, so that practically all alphabets in existence today are direct descendents of Phonecian. (There have been a couple of independent alphabets using unrelated character schemes - most notably Hangul (Korea) and Irish. But these developments were undertaken by people who were already very familiar with one of the descendents of Phonecian.

I shan't emend the entry in this regard. Possibly this is better taken up under a heading for origin of the alphabet (?)

--Philopedia 01:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related articles

I think this article should be a subsection of history of communication, just as history of alphabet should be a subsection of this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 07:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] expand

so far, the article discusses only the evolution of writing systems. It should also describe the evolution of writing materials as well as of the evolution of the applications of writing (letters, epitaphs, annals, hymns, etc.). dab (ᛏ) 16:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical history

So far the article only covers the pre-history of writing, up to the Iron Age. There's lots of material from the historical era yet to be added. -- Beland 03:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jiroft civilization!!!

No one has mentioned the Jiroft civilization! It is probably where writing began! Some one stop this madness!!!!!!!!!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Manu kian maheri (talk • contribs) 15:43, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

I just checked out the article on the Jiroft civilization, which I had never heard of. There is indeed a claim for ancient writing made in connection of this. Could someone with more knowledge of this take a look into this? Martijn Faassen 01:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope! This madness called Wikipedia will go on and on and on ... (Bouahahaaah!) Said: Rursus ☻ 10:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Independent development of writing

How is it that isolated populations of humans developed agriculture and then writing very close in time? Man had existed in very close to our modern form for tens of thousands of years. Cave paintings date back at least 40,000 years. And yet, agriculture and writing seem to have appeared in completely isolated populations within a period of perhaps a few thousand years? How is this possible?

Writing upon a seal, dated to be 7000 years old During excavations that are taking place in the town of Giannitsa, a very ancient seal was unearthed that bore a sample of writing in its inside curved side. The dimensions of the seal are 2.5 x 5.5 cm. The linear elements are aligned onto three rows, which are divided by horizontal carvings that run along its length. According to the archeologist in charge, Panikos Chrysostomou, the linear symbols of writing of the aforementioned inscription are similar to the ones found in the Dispilio inscription, and others that have been found on vessels, statuettes and on spindle flywheels that were unearthed in the central Balkans. Contrary to the other findings that bear similar linear writing symbols however always in a disorderly arrangement, the Giannitsa inscription, with the etched elements arranged in an organized manner, indicates that it constitutes part of a complicated system of writing.

Its chronological placement establishes the Giannitsa inscription as the most ancient sample of writing in the world.

http://www.hellenicway.ca/may03/periscope.htm

[edit] vandalism?

I just saw Sirkad revert 3 edits by an anonymous user as vandalism. While I'm sure there may be something wrong with these edits, it doesn't look like vandalism to me. I'm going to revert the revert until it's explained why this is vandalism, or whether there are other reasons to remove these edits. Martijn Faassen (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

My apologies to Sirkad, I looked wrong and the edits are indeed clear vandalism. Sorry for the false alarm. Martijn Faassen (talk) 17:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology problem (unless time went backwards)

This is a quote from the article:

"Round-stylus and sharp-stylus writing was gradually replaced about 2700-2500 BCE by writing using a wedge-shaped stylus (hence the term cuneiform), at first only for logograms, but developed to include phonetic elements by the 29th century BCE."

This is problematic since the 29th century BCE obviously preceded 2700-2500 BCE.

Marty8 (talk) 19:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vinča "script" not that undisputed

The text is a little too positive to the Vinča "script" being a proper protowriting, while the Jiahu Shells are (by proper scientific scepticism) dismissed by some authorities. Some criticism against Vinča symbols being a script is also needed. Said: Rursus ☻ 10:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rongorongo

Rongorongo is on the Main Page, but there is no mention of it here. 70.51.10.38 (talk) 10:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixed (not by me). Physchim62 (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mesoamerican systems

There is no mention in this article of Mesoamerican writing systems. At the very least the Maya script deserves discussion. Also the fact that these systems were developed independently of Afro-Eurasian traditions is very important. — 72.234.26.68 (talk) 05:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Completely true!·Maunus·ƛ· 16:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Cuneiform is Persian?

Is it just me or is there obviously someone who edited this page to bring glory to Iran at the expense of the general understanding of cuneiform as originating what is now Iraq? ChikeJ (talk) 09:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] need of attention from an expert?

Please state the particular part that need attention so that they can be addressed. ~~Otherwise, the tag should be removed~~. J. D. Redding 17:41, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Round-stylus and sharp-stylus; phonetic elements ... 29th century BCE obviously preceded 2700-2500 BCE.

J. D. Redding 17:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] complete rewrite?

Please state the particular issues so that they can be addressed. ~~Otherwise, the tag should be removed.~~ J. D. Redding 17:41, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

From the above discussion [though may not call for a complete rewrite, just modifcations]

Mesoamerican writing systems. Maya script deserves discussion.

J. D. Redding 17:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] proper attribution of public domain material

was "plagiarism"

Large portions of the article read as though they were written a century ago: and indeed they were; much turns out to have been taken verbatim from the source referenced in note 1, McClintock/Cyclopaedia of Biblical, theological, and ecclesiastical literature (1889) ("Bronze Age Writing" section from p 992, etc., see Google Books) Quite aside from the issue of propriety is the fact that the information presented is rather... dated. Zhaonach (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

See public domain. J. D. Redding 16:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The material is ambiguously attributed and hopelessly outdated. As per the recommendations at public domain sources, it would seem one of these would be in order:

Zhaonach (talk) 05:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] indecipherable section

The various methods — the ideographic and the phonographic or phonetic — has its attendant advantages and disadvantages; but the advantages of the latter method greatly preponderate. The principal recommendation of the former method, in which the depicted idea is caught up immediately by the mind, is that it addresses itself to a much wider circle than the latter, being intelligible, so far as it is intelligible, alike by all classes and in all countries; whereas the latter, in which the idea is depicted, not the idea, is of course intelligible only to those who are acquainted with the language to which the depicted word belongs. On the other hand, the very serious drawbacks attendant upon the direct method are: that it is capable of giving distinct expression only to a very limited range of ideas, viz. the ideas of sensible objects and qualities, and if it attempts to go beyond that range at once becomes arbitrary and obscure; and that in its representation even of the limited class of ideas to which it is capable of giving distinct expression, it is cumbrous and altogether unfitted for general use.

I claim some degree of familiarity with the convolutions of academic english, but I can understand neither meaning nor the purpose of the above paragraph. Is this intended to show the historical development, or the psychological significance, or the correlation with philosophy? I doubt it is being asserted that in adopting a writing system, people paid conscious attention to the advantages and disadvantages of syllabic versus pictographic writing. Or is this a later hypothetical framework, or perhaps an actual linguistic understanding based upon scientific evidence?

Is it being stated , and on what evidence, that the ideographic method is intelligible in all countries and all classes, presumably without actual instruction? (If so, why do we have such immense difficulty deciphering ideographic or partially ideographic scripts? ) What is the meaning of a "depicted idea being immediately caught up in the mind"? What is the meaning of "the idea is depicted, not the idea" in the following phrase of that sentence. Are there possibly some words omitted or confused there? Is it actually true that ideographic writing can only represent sensible object and quantities, but not actions as well.? How can something be simultaneously understandable "alike by all classes and in all countries; " and also be "altogether unfitted for general use."

I see this section is from the 19th century encyclopedia. Given that many scripts have been deciphered since then, can it be possibly said to represent a modern view? DGG ( talk ) 23:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems as if most if not all your concerns have been addressed. J. D. Redding

On the contrary, none if any of DGG's concerns appear to have been addressed, as the centenarian digression at issue, with its shiveringly quaint notion of the ideogram, somehow persists here under the guise of NPOV. Zhaonach (talk) 06:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The World's oldest and preserved written paper (or cloth)

From Article History of paper...

The world's earliest known printed book (using woodblock printing), the Diamond Sutra of 868 CE, shows the widespread availability and practicality of paper in China.

But I am not finding world's oldest written paper or cloth written by hand. It is hard to believe that oldest known written document is printed and all documents written by hand are destroyed.

I would like to know how historians calculated dates of empires, kings, events etc when no written document exist. For example, how historians know that Chandragupta Maurya was born in 340BCE if there is no written evidence? I am sure many readers want to know answers to such question and I am not finding any article which answer this question. Thanks! Rāmā (talk) 10:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

It is of not the earliest known writing on paper--but it is of block printing. I do not see where it is claimed otherwise. ANd of course, there was writing on many surfaces long before either paper or papyrus: clay, metal, stone, plaster. DGG ( talk ) 19:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it strange that article about 'history of writing' is missing most important things like oldest preserved written papers in each culture? Detailed stories about kings, society, religions is given in articles about history. Certainly such detailed stories are not written on stones, metals, clay, plaster, paper. Then where from historians learned so much knowledge? It seems when paper was invented, people wrote their own stories about history which was transferred to them through orally by their ancestors. And historians picked up most detailed stories to fit in timeline of history. How much true are those stories, nobody knows. Historians should have put disclaimers and sources. But history is taught in schools and colleges as if it is absolute truth. And same thing is happening on wikipedia. Articles like Alexander the Great makes some sense because it starts with sources. Otherwise almost all history articles on wikipedia are unsourced because primary sources are missing. Anyway thanks for your reply. Rāmā (talk) 11:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] number of times invented

The last sentence of the intro is problematic: "True writing, or phonetic writing, records were developed independently in four different civilizations in the world, namely Mesopotamia, China, Egypt, and Mesoamerica."

We simply don't know this to be the case. It is widely suspected that Egyptian was not independent of Sumerian; even though the system appears to be unrelated, they were part of a single trading culture, and contact is suspected of resulting in cultural diffusion of phonetic writing. (This could well have been pre-cuneiform pictographic logograms, adopted into Egypt's elaborate artistic tradition.) The fact that China took another 2000 years to come up with writing, despite contact with the Mideast, has lead to suspicions that it may also have been due to contact diffusion once the political situation was favorable. And if we're going to claim that those three systems are independent inventions of writing, why not the several others in the area? Proto-Elamite, anyone? Anatolian hieroglyphs? Indus, assuming that's writing at all? What, do famous civilizations get credit for inventing writing, but obscure ones do not? And what of the possibility that rongorongo is true writing? kwami (talk) 19:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

it's a matter of citing references. It is common to count all known scripts as derived from one of four proto-writng systems, i.e. those of Bronze Age Egypt, Mesopotamia or China, plus the Mesoamerican scripts. That is not discounting the very likely possibility of cross-pollination between the three Bronze Age systems, but this cannot be traced in detail today and likely happened still during the proto-writing phase. So it is correct to say that proto-writing developed into writing proper in four places, even if the proto-writiting itself didn't arise independently. --dab (𒁳) 13:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Fundamentally Untrue Statement

"Language expresses thought, preserves thought, and also suggests or creates thought. It has been considered obvious that, so long as language is unwritten, it can accomplish these ends only in a very imperfect measure."

I'm not going to argue about whether or language can only express, preserve, or create through imperfectly without writing. But I will absolutely argue that this has been "considered obvious". If you'll examine the article on Logocentrism, you can see that perhaps all of the Western philosophical canon (before Postmodernism anyway) held exactly the opposite view---that writing was just a bastardized form of speech that sacrificed the kind of meaning only speech can convey for the sake of preservation. I think the part about writing "preserving" thought is acceptable---that is probably obvious---but whether or not it can be considered superior for expressing or suggesting thought is a matter of contention and should by no means be called obvious. Corbmobile (talk) 12:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd say the statement is patently false. I'll delete it. kwami (talk) 20:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The thing was actually ref'd, so I'm preserving it here (wow, these letter thingies are handy!):

Language expresses thought, preserves thought, and also suggests or creates thought. It has been considered obvious that, so long as language is unwritten, it can accomplish these ends only in a very imperfect measure. Hence it may well be supposed that, at a very early stage of man's history, attempts were made to present in some way to the eye the thought which spoken language conveyed to the ear, and thus give it visible form and permanence.^[1] However, this understanding does not necessarily go unquestioned.

[edit] Unsound Intro

I hate to be a gadfly, but I think that first statement in this article just isn't true. "The history of writing follows the art of expressing thought by letters or other marks". What it should say is "The history of writing follows the art of expressing words by letters or other marks". While it is true that words convey though (or try to convey thought, depending on who you ask), writing itself has to use language as an intermediary. Would this change be acceptable?Corbmobile (talk) 08:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Knock yourself out. The current wording reflects medieval myths of esoteric Egyptian. kwami (talk) 11:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

[1]

Talk:History of writing