Talk:The Holocaust

Institutional collaboration

Perhaps there can be a reference to Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens and his call, along with members of the greek academic community, to halt the deportation of Greek Jews from Nazi occupied Greece. Damaskinos formally protested against the deportation, clashed with the german authorities and was threatened to be shot, in an incident documented by "The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation" (http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/general/greek-orthodox-church-academic/).

Apart from that, the greek version of the article about the Archibishop claims that he ordered the priests to supply the Jews with certificates of (orthodox) baptism, in order to rescue them from arrest by the Nazis, but i can't provide any source for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.86.12 (talk) 15:20, 1 October 2011

Article title

Why is "the" in our page title? It's really only appropriate when we'd capitalise "The" in the middle of a sentence, but unlike The Gambia or The Betrothed, we use "the" before "Holocaust" in the middle of a sentence. If I properly understand Names of the Holocaust, the encyclopedias that it cites in the "Use of the term for non-Jewish victims of the Nazis" section entitle their articles "Holocaust", not "The Holocaust". Nyttend backup (talk) 20:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 March 2012

The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"), also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban, from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the genocide of approximately twelve million individuals, of which were(Jpwmphrd (talk) 12:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)) six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler, throughout Nazi-occupied territory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpwmphrd (talk • contribs)

Edit request posted below (for some reason I am unable to post below it)

[Moved to correct location now that formatting error preventing text displaying is fixed]

The requested edit is not acceptable. A lot of discussion over the past years went into drawing up the first paragraph of this article. The para defines the The Holocaust as the genocide of European Jews by the Nazi regime. This definition is used by historians and scholars for a good reason: to distinguish it from other genocides or mass murders carried out by the Nazis. It is the only genocide, at least in the 20th century that set out to exterminate everyone, everywhere who had three or four Jewish grandparents. Nobody who lived under Nazi or Nazi-related regimes was exempt—even if they converted to another religion or assimilated in other ways. This is unique in European history. This does not mean that other mass murders carried out by the Nazi regimes are not recognized or that the suffering of other victims is devalued. Joel Mc (talk) 22:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I wrote already in November 2010 " It is my experience when major European historians use the proper noun "the Holocaust" they refer to the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis. This is not a POV, but the experience of somebody who has read widely. It is about classifying not an expression of ownership of a tragedy nor the downplaying of the mass murder of an equal number of non-Jewish civilians by the Nazis. (a recent reaffirmation of this definition can be found in Yale History professor Tim Snyder's latest book, Bloodlands--see section Numbers and Terms or location 7593 in its Kindle edition). Thus such a straight-forward definition should lead for example to sources of such a policy, its development and its implementation. It is true that a few historians still take issue with confining the definition to the mass killing of the Jews and it would be appropriate to mention this in a sentence with references. But reiteration of the debate belongs elswhere."Talk November 2010--Joel Mc (talk) 22:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Begoon ^talk 01:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

The entire second paragraph of the lede discusses broader definitions of the term, besides the standard definition. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Blacks and the Holocaust

Why are blacks included in "including Romani, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, Blacks, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin.[8]". The source cited doesn't even mention blacks. There is no evidence of systematic genocide of the Blacks under Nazi rule. If there is, please show me otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.40.31.13 (talk) 00:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Likewise, there is no evidence of this, it should definitely be deleted. When I read this I was confused and shocked. There was no systematic murder of blacks in the holocaust. Please show a source that shows that even 100 Blacks were killed in the holocaust. This is not a kumbaya moment, please accurately report history. 130.132.146.118 (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum says "The fate of black people from 1933 to 1945 in Nazi Germany and in German-occupied territories ranged from isolation to persecution, sterilization, medical experimentation, incarceration, brutality, and murder. However, there was no systematic program for their elimination as there was for Jews and other groups. I shall remove the claim for now although possibly the lead could say something on the subject. Thincat (talk) 21:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Wannsee conference document

nowhere on this document at all does it refer to ANY deaths being killed or died, just relocation. its absurd this is the so called proof thats up here. also this apperars to be copy 16 out of 30 and according to nazi protocols they would have never created this according to it supposedly being a secret. i will address any questions and i will be putting up a request to delete that whole segment, thanks 24.113.48.56 (talk) 05:37, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

While it is true that the references to the Wannsee minutes do not support the statements made in the paragraph, the whole WP entry on the Wannsee conference gives a fuller explanation, particularly the reference to Longerich in Interpretation of Wannsee Conference. The "segement" in question needs to be adjusted using references such Longerich, Peter (2010). Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews, pp 306-310, rather than deleted. I will try and do this in the next couple of days.--Joel Mc (talk) 10:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Children in the Holocaust concentration camp liberated by Red Army.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Children in the Holocaust concentration camp liberated by Red Army.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Children in the Holocaust concentration camp liberated by Red Army.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request for 20 March 2012: No Blacks were systematically killed in holocaust, please remove reference in introduction or elsewhere!!!

There is no reference that shows that any blacks were systematically killed in holocaust. Maybe 1 or 2, or even more, but there is no source to show that even 100 Blacks (Africans, African-Americans, Carribeans or otherwise) were systematically murdered. Please delete this reference immediately!!!! 130.132.146.118 (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Later on it says: The number of black people in Germany when the Nazis came to power is variously estimated at 5,000–25,000.[306][307] It is not clear whether these figures included Asians. According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C., “The fate of black people from 1933 to 1945 in Nazi Germany and in German-occupied territories ranged from isolation to persecution, sterilization, medical experimentation, incarceration, brutality, and murder. However, there was no systematic program for their elimination as there was for Jews and other groups

WHY ARE BLACKS INCLUDED IN INTROUDUCTION WHEN THEY WERE NOT AMONG THOSE SYSTEMATICALLY KILLED? NO EVIDENCE OF IT IN THE SOURCES!!!!! PLEASE REMOVE REFERENCE ASAP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.132.146.118 (talk) 21:15, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I have commented above but it would be more civilised if you did not shout. Thincat (talk) 21:38, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thincat - can you specify what your comment is. I know nothing on the subject, but the Wiki page that is linked also states that although blacks were subjected to the same discrimination in Nazi Germany as they were in the States, there was no extermination programs against theme and therefore I tend to agree with the anon editor that the whole section should be stripped out. Ckruschke (talk) 14:44, 21 March 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke