Talk:Homeschooling

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edit · history · watch · refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Homeschooling:
  1. Check in regularly to help with consensus opinions on topics under discussion.
  2. Find related free-license images: children learning at home, samples of books, educators, etc.
  3. Research home education resources for legality, statistics, motivations, etc. for specific countries. Start with the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand.
  4. Various clean-up related tasks:
    1. Bypass "what links here" redirects.
  5. Discussion at talk page on if we want a section of (famous) homeschoolers, in what form the section should be, and under what conditions someone classifies or is to be left out.
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Contents

[edit] US section

The section on home schooling in the US is far too long for a brief overview of the subject. The size of the section is ridiculous in comparison with that of other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.212.202 (talk) 19:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Single parent homeschooling here

  • Propose that the above article be merged here. There is not enough good material for an independent article. It could become a section in this article. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:33, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] External link defense, plus HSLDA as source crit.

Dear Editors,

I added an external link to this article for The Caribbean Center of Home Education Resources (www.tchers.net), which was subsequently deleted. I asked for the reason and was told by Themfromspace that it violated Wikipedia's guidelines for external links. I read through that guidelines and I couldn't find how the link violated it and I note that the web site being linked is the same type of regional web site that includes general homeschooling information as the Australia and New Zealand links that you do have listed. Please let me know how the link I submitted differs from those.

I also am chagrined to see HSLDA in your list of links because they are 1) primarily a commercial organization and 2) an unreliable source, at least as far as homeschooling in Puerto Rico is concerned. For the past eight years, T'CHERs has contacted them on numerous occasions to correct the incorrect legal information that they have listed for Puerto Rico. They did make a change about three years ago, but the information left is still incorrect. This is shameful, especially on the part of an organization whose specialty is supposed to be the legality of homeschooling.

Even more offensive is the blatant disregard that HSLDA has shown toward hard won homeschool victories that have been achieved by local grassroots efforts. A prime example of this is the fact that homeschoolers in Puerto Rico can self-certify their homeschooling when applying for government aid from the Department of Family and the Health Department. Although HSLDA has been notified of these important and positive developments, they insist on promoting their own business by stating in their FAQ for PR that they will provide certification of homeschooling for government offices - without mentioning one thing about parents now having the authority to do this themselves.

I submit this topic with the utmost respect for the work you do as editors. Thank you for your time and consideration on this matter.

Tibs.of.the.jungle (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Americas education system

Almost 3 million Americans are home schooled and growing. More then 4 million Americans are in religous schools. Many more are in private schools. And millions of American kids drop out of public school each year. If this dosen't say soemthing about our public schools here in America then I don't know what will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brenthere (talk • contribs) 20:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

If your spelling doesn't say soemthing (sic) about home schools and religous (sic) schools, then I don't know what will. Also, I'd like to point out that most of those millions of public school dropouts are probably smarter and more world-wise than those home schooled and religious schooled kids who are force-fed biased belief and sometimes flat-out incorrect information by people who are not fit to be teachers. Theroguex (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Parents' Motivations

I note that motivations for ideological (i.e.: political/religious) reasons for Home Education children is played down (well, not even really mentioned!) in the foreword of the article; yet you've got a table that shows "religious reasons" as the second most popular motivation for wanting to do Home Education; shouldn't this be reflected in the foreword? From what I can see there is definitely a religious dimension to a significant proportion of Home Education websites.

I think it might also be worth including mention of the idea that people might be motivated to do it by general "moral" reasons, which could encompass both religious and political beliefs that are at odds with the publicly-funded education regimes available. In other words, they feel that their children may be trained to have a particular world-view (that they may find either immoral or censorious; never mind unimaginative) if they remain in the state-school system.

I think this warrants inclusion; because I'm not so sure that academic attainment is really the strongest motivator in all cases; and may be a bit of a red herring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.76.83 (talk) 13:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

From my perspective in my exposure to home-schooling parents, I observe three reasons that parents choose to home-school their kids. The reasons aren't necessarily mutually exclusive:
  • Environmental shielding (the environment to be protected from could be too violent, too secular, too conservative, too liberal, too ethnic, etc.)
  • Religious indoctrination (goes hand in hand with shielding, although you can have shielding without indoctrination)
  • Academic achievement
I agree that this article warrants inclusion of the points you raised. I'll see what I can do about fixing the lead section. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] List of "homeschoolers"

This has been deleted and re-added a few times. Right now it's gone, but since someone will probably put it back up I thought I'd say a few words on the subject. Specifically, I suggest that we come up with a consistent definition of homeschooling, preferably sourced, that is not anachronistic. Erwin Schrodinger did not think of himself as homeschooled. Ricardiana (talk) 03:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I see my prediction was correct. Here's what needs to happen, in my view:
  1. First off, lists like this are a problem, not just with WP:TRIVIA but with the MoS re: lists in general. If this section is to stay, it should be written up in actual paragraphs.
  2. Second, definitions should not be anachronistic. We can squabble about what anachronism entails here - by all means, let's.
  3. Third, sources need to be of a higher quality than some bio of Lincoln that says he didn't go to school. That's not the same as asserting he was "homeschooled."
  4. Fourth, perhaps this back-and-forth can be solved by the employment of a neutral point of view? Specifically, something like this: "Many proponents of homeschooling point to such figures as Abraham Lincoln and Elizabeth I as having been homeschooled...[etc.]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardiana (talk • contribs)
The biggest problem with the list is that people will add anyone to the list, even if they were properly homeschooled, and that makes the article look worse rather than better. It's WP:LISTCRUFT at best, and at worst... This is why it should be pulled. It's unlikely to get better until someone rewrites it, and I have no interest in making trivial connections look better. --Izno (talk) 17:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, I do have an interest, as I was homeschooled and I'd rather we don't look like a bunch of dumbasses. So I've made a preliminary swipe at re-working the section. The first step is for it not be a list or titled as list, and the lack of list format/title should cut down on the temptation to shove more items in. Ricardiana (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Be careful of WP:Weasel words, though. --Izno (talk) 20:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Duly noted. I don't have time to do the research right now, but at least trying to work on the section is better than having it be constantly deleted and put back. Ricardiana (talk) 20:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

1) Part of this issue has already been discussed above, under "notable home schooled students". This wiki entry is NOT on the modern home school movement, but homeschooling generally.

2) Many people are interested in factual information about what kinds of people are home schooled. The list gave a range of historical examples. It was carefully researched by several users and backed up with citations

3) Perhaps there should be a separate wiki page for notable home-schooled students? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.203.92 (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello, whoever you are; I am aware that the issue has been brought up before, thank you. However, it has obviously not been resolved, largely because people insist on deciding what they think about what homeschooling is, etc., and then edit warring accordingly. Wikipedia policy demands the employment of a neutral point of view. I have re-worked the section to add sources that give two opposing points of view. If you would like to make a list of homeschoolers according to one of those points of view, I suggest you create a page as per WP:LISTS, but even then you will have to employ a neutral point of view. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes rather than posting anonymously. Ricardiana (talk) 00:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, it was not "carefully researched" because it did not attend to issues of interpretation and anachronicity. Nor did it adhere to NPOV. Nor iss the number of people involved in creating the list relevant to these issues. Ricardiana (talk) 00:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
On that note, I'll point out that most of these "carefully researched" sources are in fact to one source, So - Why do you homeschool?, and lack citations to page numbers, a minimum requirement for "careful" research. I might also add that the book is published by a no-name press and lacks citations for its claims.

I have now created a page as per WP:LISTS entitled List of notable homeschooled individuals. Please do not shove this list back in the article; that would be a violation of WP:MOS. Ricardiana (talk) 02:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The section is perfectly neutral, and reflects factual information that is appropriate to the article. It is not a "list" under WP:LISTS and more than the "list" of legality of homeschooling in different countries would be. I have restored the text; do not delete without better justification. Further, your argument of "anachronicity" distracts from the min issue and does not make sense in any case- Elizabeth is a currently ruling monarch, of example. Again, this is not an article on the modern homeschooling movement; it is an article on homeschooling generally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.203.92 (talk) 21:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

You are 100% incorrect. First of all, I created a page for your list, as per WP:LISTS at [[List of notable homeschooled individuals, and provided a link to that page under the appropriate section. Second, it is not "my" argument re: anachronicity, although I happen to agree with it; it is one that is given in a source which I cited. You do not own this article, so stop acting as if you do and stop deleting every cited point of view you disagree with and reverting the page back exactly the way it was. I have (1) tried to get rid of a bulleted list that does NOT comply with the Manual of Style by creating a new page for this info, dubious though some of it is (see other users' comments on this talk page, as well as mine), and (2) added another point of view. The section as you keep reverting it IS in fact NOT neutral because you insist on presenting only one point of view! This is just nonsense. I have put back the one source and am letting the list stay for the moment, even though there is another page with this info and even though it's bad style. If you have the chutzpah to get rid of that source again, I am just going to have to take this to the dispute resolution process. Ricardiana (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Many of the points above are incorrect. First- although I once added to it, it is not "my" list- this list has been on the home school page of wikipedia in one form or another for years. It is a part of the page that many users find informative and a source of factual information. Examples are an important part of a page like this. Secondly, there seems to be dissatisfaction among some uses that only famous individuals are reported; however, attempts by others to add less famous individuals are deleted (and I agree with that decision, by the way). Finally, different points of view are important, but your point about anachronicity is possibly irrelevant because this is not an article on (only) the modern homeschooling movement- it is about homeschooling generally. Nobody thinks or assumes that Abraham Lincoln's education at home was the same as Elizabeth the II's, or for that matter, some modern homeschooled student in America. By the way, some of these issues (like the details regarding "list" of notable homeschoolers) have been through dispute resolution before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.203.92 (talk) 12:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Your points are irrelevant to the points I made above. 1. It's nice that you are not the only one who made this list, but that is not what owning an article means - read the link. 2. I never said examples weren't important. Bulleted lists of examples, however, are not best style:
Sections usually consist of paragraphs of running prose. Bullet points should be minimized in the body of the article, if they are used at all; however, a bulleted list may be useful to break up what would otherwise be a large, grey mass of text, particularly if the topic requires significant effort on the part of readers. [This hardly qualifies.]] Bulleted lists are typical in the reference and reading sections at the bottom. (Wikipedia:Layout
I was fool enough to toy with the idea of getting this article to Good Article status, but with your attitude of [[ownership that will obviously never happen. 3. Once again IT IS NOT MY POINT ABOUT ANACHRONICITY and you do NOT get to decide which POVs are appropriate because they ALL have to presented! You can't just hide under "no one thinks" when obviously that is not true because I have a CITATION to prove it. So thanks for your remarks, but they are IRRELEVANT to my points.
You accused me of deleting material that I did not delete and you acted as if I am presenting one point of view when in fact I added a source to make the section NPOV. You show little sign of understanding Wikipedia's recommendations on layout and you have not assumed good faith. Ricardiana (talk) 17:03, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] world map

I discovered an incoherency between color and text. In the table below the map homeeducation is considrered generally legal in Norway, wich I think is correct. Norway therefore should be yellow and not red on the map.

In the same table homeeducation is considered illigal in Sweden. This is not correct. Yellow is the correct color for Sweden. Even if Norway is more liberal than Sweden both give a legal space for homeeducation. Another story is that a proposal for a new law has been presented last week wich is very similar to the german law. But it is not here yet!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Himmelslund (talk • contribs) 20:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] homeschooling in Italy

from the map it seems that hs is illegal in Italy. But this is 90% false, as I have evidence of children homeschooled in Italy.

The only requirement is that the child must undertake annually an exam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.42.16.118 (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

That's correct, homeschooling in Italy is legal. I added the paragraph regarding Italy, with link to the Ministry of Education. The map should be corrected.--Gspinoza (talk) 13:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Bias + Bias != No Bias

In the section "Criticism of supportive achievement studies" there is a part that implies a statistical fallacy that comparing two self selected biased populations is comparable or as good as comparing two random selected populations. Rewording should correct this. Perhaps reordering the following sentences would fix the problem. What do you think? Change this:

"Some states that require testing allow homeschooling parents to choose which test to use.[79] When testing is not required, homeschoolees taking the tests are self-selected, which biases any statistical results.[80] An exception are the SAT and ACT tests, where homeschooled and formally-schooled students alike are self-selecting; homeschoolers averaged higher scores on college entrance tests in South Carolina."

To this:

"Some states that require testing allow homeschooling parents to choose which test to use.[79] An exception are the SAT and ACT tests, where homeschooled and formally-schooled students alike are self-selecting; homeschoolers averaged higher scores on college entrance tests in South Carolina. When testing is not required, taking the tests are self-selected, which biases any statistical results.[80] " —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mk2337 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I hate this i don´t understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.203.142.130 (talk) 23:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] sexual harassment a reason for homeschooling

“

Across the country, it was estimated in 2003 that nearly 10 percent of American students — or more than 4.5 million — were targets of sexual harassment or abuse by a public school employee between kindergarten and 12th grade, according to a study by former Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft.

The study, commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education, said those numbers could be low because inappropriate behavior by educators is likely under-reported, Shakeshaft wrote.

 ”

That's from [1]. Should that be included in the article somewhere, or the study cited for sexual harassment being a reason to keep children homeschooled and away from rapists? 10% is an insane amount! Dream Focus 05:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Unless the study itself mentions that sexual harassment is a cause for parents to homeschool, it should not be cited in this section. It would be considered original research, since it's an editor and not a research team who would have thought of the new reason.bob bobato (talk) 02:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Legality of Homeschooling

The alternative article Legality of Homeschooling presents a table which matches this article's map but conflicts with its text. Please can a subject expert reconcile the two? The sources under International homeschooling above may be useful. If there is a consensus to revise or replace the map, help is available at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Map workshop. Certes (talk) 23:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Look in the section #Homeschool Legality World Map above for some comments. I have taken a look at the problem, and the map and the classification in the table seem higly dubious, but I do not have the knowledge required for correcting it.
Most entries here have sources, while many of the links on the mentioned page are non-informative or dead, probably because fewer people are working with it (and it hasn't been updated for a while). Two examples, that I checked because of the discussion above:
Finland: "Legal as alternative to the mandatory public school system. Written and oral examinations to check on progress are mandatory. – legal under restricting conditions, like a teaching certificate or permit"
Norway: "Illegal, public education is mandatory without known exceptions. – illegal"
In the case of Finland the categorization is strange, because I think it clearly should fall into "Legal under regulating conditions, such as mandatory tests and checks". This may be a pure error.
In the case of Norway the law seems to recognize homeschooling and the local homeschooling movement says it is legal. The source used for the table entry is the wikipedia article Education in Norway stating "Elementary and lower secondary school are mandatory for all children aged 6–16." But this is about schooling in general and not about mandatory public schools.
It is probable that there are similar problems with other countries. The original author complains that finding info on Europe is difficult because the multitude of languages and the issue not being widely covered.
--LPfi (talk) 08:24, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Request for enhancement

The sentence "The Moores cited studies demonstrating that orphans who were given surrogate mothers were measurably more intelligent" does not make it clear who were these children compared with (I assume with orphans without surrogate mothers, but would be nice clarified). Could someone with access to the source check it, please? Mcsontos (talk) 20:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

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