|WikiProject Primates||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Anthropology||(Rated Start-class, High-importance)|
- 1 Questions
- 2 What the heck is "Himinina"?
- 3 Article is incorrect
- 4 Status of the genus Pan
- 5 replies to all of the above
- 6 chimps
- 7 New Edits
- 8 "Unusual" process of speciation?
- 9 Wrong family tree
- 10 Are the terms "hominini" and "hominins" variants of each other?
- 11 Source for "Blood Transfusions between Homonini Species"
- 12 Further on definition
- 13 Disambiguation/merging
- 14 Inconsistency with Primate article
What's the group that homo and australopithecines are in that pan isn't in?--184.108.40.206 22:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
In anthropological literature, Chimps are not included in Hominini, which includes only the genera Homo, Australopithecus and Paranthropus. (Sort of, your lumper/splitter mileage may vary.) Thomas Greiner explains here: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/Apr2003/1050350684.Ev.r.html
What the heck is "Himinina"?
UtherSRG, don't you mean subtribe Hominina? My question is, if members of Hominini (humans and chimps) are called hominins, what are members of Hominina (humans only) called? Humans? Homins? Homininans? Obviously, we can't call them hominins anymore, so what DO we call them? Help!
Maybe this will help. The latest info I was able to find on human/ape taxonomy indicates that the tribe Hominini comprises two subtribes, Australopithecina (the australopithecines, obviously) and Hominina (basically living and extinct humans--that is, anything of the genus Homo). So unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible, this means that the term "hominin" still refers collectively to the australopithecines and members of Homo.
- Yes, I meant "Hominina" and not "Himinina". The information presented in the articles is more up to date than what you are reading in your textbook. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Uther, the textbook I was referring to is the latest one I could find, the ninth edition of Humankind Emerging, published in August 2005. I know that there is some lag time between the writing and publishing of such books, but I still find it hard to believe that the nomenclature has so radically changed again just in the last year or two. Also, I'm not sure which articles you are referring to that are more up-to-date than this book. Can you direct me to a couple of the most recent scholarly articles on the subject? (If you can, you will save me some research drudgery that I'm perfectly capable of withstanding but that it would be nice to avoid. Also, others might be glad of the references.) Thanks. --kaineas —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs) .
- Did you read Hominini? Here's one that pushes everything down one level, with all of the apes in Hominidae: http://www.taxonomy.nl/Taxonomicon/TaxonTree.aspx?id=66255 - UtherSRG (talk) 23:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Please forgive the following childish outburst: AUGH! Okay, now that that's out of my system, yes, I have seen the Wiki entry on Hominini. It puts Pan into a different subtribe from all of the humans and australopithecines and the like. In the little "Genera" box, it clearly states that the human branch is Hominina and that this subtribe does not include chimps. Unfortunately, I needed a more (how shall I put it?) reputable source to go on, so that's why I asked for other sources. You then gave me the link for the Taxonomicon, which is great, and I thank you. BUT. When I click through the different links on the Taxonomicon and get the breakdown on subtribe Hominina, it lists Pan right there along WITH Homo and Australopithecus and Orrorin and all of those dudes. Take a look--compare Wiki's Hominina with the Taxonomicon's. They're different. So, which one is right? Now I don't feel that I can trust the Taxonomicon either. This is what comes of having a suspicious nature, I suppose. --kaineas
Article is incorrect
Uther, the only support you've offered for the idea that Hominini should include humans and chimps and all descendants of their common ancestor, is the Taxonomicon. But the Taxonomicon actually indicates that Hominini should include humans and gorillas and all descendants of their common ancestor. (http://www.taxonomy.nl/Taxonomicon/TaxonTree.aspx?id=109372). Meanwhile, we have an article published today in Science that states: "Bipedalism is a key human adaptation and a defining feature of the hominin clade." (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;319/5870/1662). A review of that article in the same issue says "The new study confirms that Orrorin walked upright - a defining characteristic of being a hominin, the primate group that includes humans and our ancestors but not other apes." (Ann Gibbons. 2008. Millenium ancestor gets its walking papers. Science 319:1599-1601. March 21). So either this wiki article is wrong and the Taxonomicon is right, or (as I expect) this wiki article is wrong and the Science articles are right, but either way this wiki article is wrong. (Cirbryn (talk) 17:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC))
Hi, Cirbryn. This is exactly what I was getting at--I would sooner trust the Taxonomicon and a very recent textbook than a Wiki entry that offers no substantiation. Are you planning to edit the article so that it's correct? kaineas 04:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaineas (talk • contribs)
Status of the genus Pan
The web page http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3744 says that, based on the comparisons of chimpanzee DNA with human DNA shows that humans and chimpanzees share 98 percent of their DNA. This may suggest that Hominina and Panina should be abandoned. In this case, Pan and Homo should be considered descendants of Sahelanthropus and Orrorin.
The web page http://www.physorg.com/news9211.html shows that humans and chimps diverged from their common ancesotor about 7 million years ago. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 05:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
replies to all of the above
Textbooks never use the latest good information. It takes years for the best thoughts on these kinds of subjects to get into textbooks. Sometimes decades. Textbooks are *not* a good source of information. That said, I don't have full access to the Science Mag paper, so I can't tell if it lays out any cladistics regarding the various species it studies. If someone with access could report on that, that would be great. The New Scientist article is 5 years old. There have been several papers re-estimating the split time since then. The PhysOrg article is reporting on one of them.
There does not seem to be a clear taxonomy for the tribe Hominini. Perhaps the subtribes should be abandoned, perhaps they shouldn't. I admit to not being very pedantic when I first created the articles, so I don't know what it is that made me believe that that was the right thing to do. I think the best is to take a guess and keep our articles consistent along that singular guess, but to describe the other possibilities where appropriate. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I think that's based on old ideas with respect to bonobo and a failure in common usage to distinguish between them and common chimpanzees; Pan is the more precise term. I'm pretty sure common usage has evolved; I'll look for some cites. I don't really care about all that but did you have any problem with my rewrite of the lead regarding the two genera in this tribe. The reference to two genera, Homo (incorrectly piped to "humans") and Pan and "their extinct ancestors" is incorrect. The tribe includes all of those two genera, only three species of which are extant and many of the extinct ones aren't' ancestors of the ones that are around today.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 03:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I've made two new edits to this article. The first is a quick mention that there are two species in the genus Pan. The second is an actual change to the definition given by the article, and I really hope it's received well. I took Doug's suggestion above, and worked it into the article again. I used the term "extinct lineages" instead of "extinct descendants", as I think that is more easily understood to mean splitting and dying species.
- It has been pointed out to me that I may have inappropriately excluded from Hominini all animals living within the space between the last common ancestor of humans and chimps, and the splitting event of the subfamily Homininae into the two branches leading to chimps/humans and gorillas. That's a pretty major error.
"Unusual" process of speciation?
I'm adding a bit more about what makes it unusual--if it is and not just more closely studied than, say, goat lineages. I'd rather simply say what happened and note that the researchers think it's unusual. Monado (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Wrong family tree
File:Hominini.PNG is not correct. Hominini is internationally only used for Homo and his precursors, but not for Homo and Pan. The precursors of Pan should be named as Panini. --De.Gerbil (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- You are partially correct, and partially not. For the most part, we follow MSW3 (2005) for terminology. MSW3 notes: "The genera are placed in two subfamilies by Groves (2001c): Ponginae (Pongo alone), and Homininae (Gorilla, Homo, Pan). McKenna and Bell (1997) included Hylobatidae in addition, as a subfamily, and within the Homininae recognized two living tribes, Pongini and Hominini; Goodman et al. (1998) recognized gibbons only as a tribe (Hylobatini), with the other three genera as a separate tribe (Hominini), divided into subtribes Pongina and Hominina; they included Pan in Homo, and Watson et al. (2001) included both Pan and Gorilla in Homo." Following this, the terminology in the image (and all of the hominid articles) follows. I have seen what you mention (today, in fact, at Border's in a book published in 2004, a year before MSW3), with Panini being composed solely of Pan, but that structure then places Panini & Hominini in Homininae, and Gorilla in Gorillinae. Homininae + Gorillinae = Hominidae, and Hominidae + Pongidae = Hominoidea, and Hominoidea + Hylobatoidea = (something I can't remember). It's the same structure, but with each taxon given a ranking 1 higher. (-oidea = super family, -idae = family, -inae = subfamily, -ini = tribe, -ina = subtribe) Since we follow MSW3, Hominini conatains Hominina and Panina, with Homo and its close ancestors in Hominina and Pan and its close ancestors in Panina. - UtherSRG (talk) 05:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I seriously doubt that this nomenclature is up-to-date; this Nature review article, for instance, doi:10.1038/nature09709, p. 347, distinguishes "Tribe Panini (panins) / Genus Pan" vs. "Tribe Hominini (hominins) / Genus Australopithecus, Genus Kenyapithecus, Genus Homo". Bernard Wood and Terry Harrison are leading paleoanthropologists. --De.Gerbil (talk) 18:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Are the terms "hominini" and "hominins" variants of each other?
As best I can sort it out it goes like this: first off, we're all a bunch of simian primates. Easy words. But then it gets complicated and really similar:
- hominoids are the super-family Hominoidea
- hominids are the family
- hominines are the sub-family Homininae
- hominins are the tribe Hominini
I definitely share your confusion here. The dropping of the 'i' at the end is for common reference so we can talk about it more simply using 2 syllables. One way to remember these is that as we move down the list, it switches from Ds to Ns and long vowels to short vowels. "oid" is a long 'o' sound, 'id' is a short 'i', 'ine' is a long 'i', 'in' is a short 'i'.
- It's a matter of noun vs adjective (and adjectival noun). "Hominoid" is an adjective (and adjectival noun), while "Hominoidea" is a noun, etc. "Members of Hominidae are hominids." (adjectival noun usage) "The orangutans are hominid primates." (adjective usage) the clades (families, etc) are all group nouns - terms that are always singular ("the family Hominidae") - which have one or more members (more typically more than one). The adjectives (or adjectival nouns, really) are the members of the clades, and can be plural or singular. "Gorillas are hominids." "The Bornean oranguatan is not a hominine." Your shorthand almost always works: -oidea is almost always an animal superfamily, -idae is almost always an animal family, -inae is almst always an animal subfamily, -ini is almost always a tribe, and -ina is almost always a subtribe. Things sometimes get confusing as taxonomy changes: subfamily Ponginae use to be the family Pongidae, and its members are still sometimes referred to as pongids instead of pongines. - UtherSRG (talk) 07:27, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Source for "Blood Transfusions between Homonini Species"
I haven't been able to track down a proper citation for the (probable) fact, but apparently Jane Goodall says it in a DVD: "Jane Goodall: Return to Gombe". Not a good enough source to cite as authoritative, but she got the idea from somewhere. I suspect someone with access to bio or medical journals should be able find something pretty easily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Further on definition
1. MSW3 only formally recognises families and genus, and discusses sub-families and tribes as terms which have no generally accepted classification. I think it should be made clear at the start of the article that hominini is a term which is used by researchers but is defined in different ways.
2. Uther above says that the article follows the MSW3 definition of hominini, but the quote he gives makes clear that this is only one 1997 view by McKenna & Bell. It also cites Goodman et al in 1998 as including gorillas in hominini. Reference 1 in the Wiki article also by Goodman from 1990 gives the same definition. These sources are all dated, and I do not see why one 1997 definition is regarded as authoritative, especially as Uther dismisses later alternative definitions as out of date. I cannot find any later sources which define hominini as homo + pan, although I do not have access to some of the sources cited.
3. The most recent sources I can find define hominini as the homo line. Chris Stringer & Peter Andrews in the 2005 The Complete World of Human Evolution p. 16 has tribes Panini and Hominini and genuses Pan and Homo. Dean Falk's 2011 The Fossil Wars uses it in the same sense. Merriam-Webster at  and About.com Archaeology at  have the same definition. This is the dominant modern usage so far as I can see - as editors above have also argued.
I'm no expert, but here are some sources saying that "hominin" refers just to humans, australopithecines, etc. -- not chimpanzees, etc. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1126544/hominin http://australianmuseum.net.au/Hominid-and-hominin-whats-the-difference http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/hominids/2011/11/whats-in-a-name-hominid-versus-hominin/ Scales (talk) 00:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to create a new article titled "Hominoid taxonomies", similar to , and to merge this article there. Alternatively, to create "Hominoid taxonomies (disambiguation)".
The problem is that there are so many potentially-confusing terms in this area:
- There's the clades Hominoidea ("apes" suborder or superfamily), Hominidae ("great apes" family) and Homininae (subfamily including gorillas not orangutans).
- Hominini is ambiguous (either meaning everything more human than chimps, or else meaning humans and chimps but not gorillas, probably depending on when you ask. Also note we are inconsistent about whether everything more chimpanzee than human should be called the Panini tribe or Panina subtribe).
- Hominina (subfamily) apparently coined because Homo needed more synonyms?
- The adjectival nouns: Hominoids (may or may not include gibbons), hominids (either all great apes or else excluding even chimps), hominins (usually hominini sometimes homininae), and hominans/hominas (homos).
- Humanoids (which was applied to fossils in the past, but now usually robots and sci-fi aliens), homins (which may include giants and bigfoot), humans (whatever that term means, let alone humane/humanity/people, and then there's even races, and the controversy whether human population genetics can be separated from racism and eugenics).
Honestly, I'm not making these up.
With a bunch of separate stubs, it's difficult to keep them mutually consistent let alone to explain the ambiguity and avoid unwittingly confusing readers. Cesiumfrog (talk) 03:07, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Inconsistency with Primate article
A diagram in Primate shows "Hominini" as the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees. That's obviously inconsistent with the present article, which says that Hominini is the tribe of Homininae that comprises Homo, and other members of the human clade after the split from the tribe Panini (chimpanzees). It would seem that we either should reconcile the articles, or add some sort of explanation in this article as to the different meanings of the term. John M Baker (talk) 01:58, 11 December 2012 (UTC)