Talk:House of Borgia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Catholicism (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Catholicism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
 
WikiProject Politics (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Poorly-written[edit]

The entire page is quite poorly written - it reads like either a mediocre high-school essay or (more likely) was penned by someone whose first language wasn't actually English. The sentence structure is clumsy and the syntax choppy and inconsistent; it would benefit greatly from a top-to-bottom edit, cleanup, and partial rewrite. Given that in US (and likely other markets) the Showtime television drama "The Borgias", slated for release in April 2011, will draw considerably more attention to this page (it's the top Google hit for the search word "Borgias"), it seems a high priority for cleanup.


Agreed. This article is very poorly written. I've flagged it for a rewrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.140.84 (talk) 02:42, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Alexander VI, brilliant?[edit]

The article said he was "brilliant". How so? The only thing he seemed to excel at was nepotism. Sirkowski 21:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Papal Families[edit]

There should be a page devoted to papal families and other interconnections: as this is the most well known such, I am placing the request here. Jackiespeel 17:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a Spanish family gone to Italy whose original name was Borja. Then why is registerd between italian families?


 At that time and for several centuries Italy was part of the Spanish empire, like half of Europe, America, part of Asia, part of Africa and part of Oceania and the 
 seven seas ( with the powerful Spanish  imperial armada). The largest empire in history
 Borgia king of Italy illegal and against the emperor. The problem is that the Spanish empire was so large it was impossible to control everything to avoid these things, 
 even within the Empire was the Holy Roman Empire, were three empires in 1

BORJA[edit]

This is a Valencian family. Wikipedia authors should stick to eponyms please. There is no way the early Borjas could have been born Bogia as they were not Italian... at first. Later Borgias we can use the Italian spelling. I'm an Italophile and I love Italian history, but let's recognize accuracy above popular history and common modern day exonyms (there are of course exceptions, but when you are telling a reader an particular persons birth name stick to the name they were given at birth, not the common translation)

Another example the House of Stuart. One uses StEWart before Mary, Queen of Scots and Stuart, after her stay in France, for the Scottish royal family and their descendants. We should change the name of this article.

Dukedom of Gandia[edit]

I don't think Cesare was ever Duke of Gandia. In any case, the first Duke was Pedro Luis, his elder brother, and he was suceeded by Juan, one of Cesare's younger brothers. Cesare may have acquired the title when Juan died in 1497, but it's not on the genealogy I'm using. Does anyone know any different? Maybe this line should be deleted, because it doesn't strike me as being particularly relevant anyway. Also, Pedro Luis, the First Duke of Gandia, became a Duke - and died - while Rodrigo Borgia was still a cardinal.

--SoniaUK 18:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe Cesare was made Duke of Gandia. He was better know as the Duke of Valentino, but I think this it was to prevent confusion between the two brothers, since Juan was rarely referred to by any other name. I will look it up to be sure.

Monlette (talk) 01:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Valencian-Italian family[edit]

The definition of the Borja's family as “Catalan-Italian” is absolutely wrong. Pope Calixtus III (December 31, 1378–August 6, 1458), né Alfons de Borja, was born near Xàtiva, València, today Spain but then Kingdom of Valencia under the Crown of Aragon. So the family could be defined as "Valencian-Italian", "Aragon-Italian" or even "Spanish-Italian", depending on the author point of view, but never can be it described as "Catalan-Italian".

Jewish?[edit]

A fundamentalist Protestant who hates Catholicism is claiming that the Borgia family is Jewish? Is this true?CelticSicilian (talk) 02:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A Possible Coat of Arms?[edit]

like in many other italian noble families (the Medici's and Farnese are the most famous) the use of Coat of Arms was very common, and my question IS: is there any knowledge of a coat of arms that was used by the House of Borgia? --Oren neu dag (talk) 22:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Structural change[edit]

This page appears to me to be more about Rodrigo Borgia than about the family. Shouldn't it be better to redirect the readers to the page of pope Alexander VI for the details about Rodrigo's life and add instead somewhat more about the other Borgia's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.191.138.240 (talk) 08:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I've made some changes. --Polylerus (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

We should change it so that it is structured by time instead of people Lasal Boyagama (talk) 06:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

references in litterature and cinema[edit]

Some ref are obvious hoaxes. I deleted them --Alexandre Rongellion (talk) 06:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure all of this was hoax information. The references to Assassins Creed 2, Ascension and Brotherhood are all relevant, but don't know about the rest. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Rodrigo_Borgia AxStaffer (talk) 12:31, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Normally all left ref are verifiable, I had just forgotten to delete the spurious refs to drama and theatre. I had never heard about Jordorowski's works on that subject, but it is in his vein, and I'm too lazy to check. --Alexandre Rongellion (talk) 00:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

What the heck?[edit]

On the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgia, in the section History/Expansion/Cesare, there is the statement:

         "Cesare's education was accurately planned by his father."

Though I'm an intelligent, well educated person, and a native speaker of (and published writer in) English, I have no idea at all of what the writer of this sentence meant to convey to Wikipedia's readers...

Some clarification, perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.205.119 (talk) 09:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

WHAT IS THIS STUFF???[edit]

This is the most poorly written article I have ever seen in Wikipedia. Some of it makes no sense at all--some of it is nothing more than rumor. Historians do not write like this. Some of the well-known facts are correct but others are dubious at best. I suspect tampering with the original article may be to blame. Historian1031 (talk) 06:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll second that. This article is just awful. With the TV miniseries running it's an embarrassment to wikipedia to have people coming here to look for actual facts about the Borgias. The capper was that two video games are cited as historical sources at the end. Unbelievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.29.214.34 (talk) 07:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The references to the Assassin's Creed video games are actually just recording the Borgia Family's appearance in Popular Culture, much like the appearance of the TV series, they are not used as sources. AxStaffer (talk) 14:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Having read about the Borgia for the last 15 years, since my interest was first piqued, I find this article to be appalling! I don't have the time to research & re-write but is it possible (particularly with The Borgias now showing) to have this highlighted somewhere for others, who are more knowledgeable & able to dedicate their time, to re-write? (",) 86.63.26.124 (talk) 22:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is very poorly written and contains some very dubious assertions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rillifane (talkcontribs) 20:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Somewhat Improved Structurally[edit]

I'm not qualified to make factual improvements, but as a technical writer I can at least improve the structure a little. The section "The Other Siblings" after the portraits repeats some members already mentioned, and not all of them are siblings of anyone in particular, so the heading is incorrect. It is also unformatted; it's just a plain text line. The whole section is a dangling addendum anyway. If this information belongs anywhere, it's at the end of section "History", and its title should be something like "Other Borgias". The preceding section of portraits titled "Notable Members" should not be called that, because some Borgias whose pictures don't appear are also notable, or the article would not note them, which it does. A better title would be "Borgia portraits". The "Borgia genealogy tree" and "Papal arms" graphics are poorly placed; each has an obvious better location at the top of the relevant section. I have made the described changes, which are purely structural, not factual. Perhaps as a side effect this will call enough attention to this article that someone qualified will address the other, more serious problems noted in this Talk page.

Ornithikos 00:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

What[edit]

"Template: Royal House of Cock Eaters"? It's almost clever as far as vandalism goes. 66.207.23.59 (talk) 21:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Extinct[edit]

The article needs more information about the extinction of the different lines. When did the Spanish (de Borja) branch ended? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.251.196 (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Falls under original research, and ergo, I can't endorse this information to be put into the article 'til somebody wants to properly research it. Anyways, Borja/Borgia has variations on the spelling of the name today, with Bourbon, Boyd, Boyle, Doyle, Beauregard, etc. being variations thereof. If the name or line is extinct, it can be discussed here, and see if the lines and descendants match up. No need to put into the article 'til it's properly done. 70.180.188.238 (talk) 17:20, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistencies[edit]

Someone needs to edit this for inconsistencies regarding Rodrigo Borgia's two sones; Cesare and Giovanni. There are multiple occasions where which of the two is the older and the younger is confused. I believe that Cesare was the elder son, and this is borne out in the text a number of times, but there are also places where the text says that Giovanni is the oldest son.

148.240.61.197 (talk) 06:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)


On page rewrite[edit]

I suggest you rewrite this page using, for this purpose, the existing Spanish Wikipedia. Sorry for my poor English.

--Julio Durán Borja (talk) 06:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Semi-Gotha[edit]

Is the Semi-Gotha mentioned in this article the same as the Almanach de Gotha? Hcobb (talk) 23:10, 28 March 2013 (UTC)