Talk:Hubal

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Saudi Arabia / Mecca  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saudi Arabia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Saudi Arabia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Mecca.
 

Talk[edit]

I've added the reference to "Henryk Dobrzanski" which is usually known in Poland under his pseudonym, Hubal. I felt it should be not in see also, but before, so people searching for him would have easier time. However, i do not think he was important enough for making disambiguation page. Szopen 14:30, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)


You keep adding the words "Moon God" after the name "Hubal" as if it's some kind of ritual. Why is that? All your sources came from anti-Islamic evangelical web site. I know there is an entry on Hubal in Encyclopedia of Islam (but I don't have access to it -- the original source ... not as quoted by anti-Islamic sites).

I have not been able to find a neutral (or Islamic) site on the internet that agrees that Hubal was a moon god. All sites were anti-Islamic evangelical sites. I am starting to doubt if it's established beyond doubt that Hubal was a moon god; (contrary to your ritual of adding the phrase "moon god" every time you mention Hubal). Have you checked the sources or are you only repeating them as you found them in these evangelical sites?

I would like to see the original article on Hubal in Encyclopedia of Islam (unfortunately the library here in Kansas doesn't have it). OneGuy 03:47, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, we would like you to see the article on Hubal in the Encyclopedia of Islam too. Read it first, then argue. We imagine the Encyclopedia of Islam will be a splendidly neutral source. Wetman 03:51, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Encyclopedia of Islam is a non-Islamic scholarly source, so of cource it's splendidly neutral source. I would let you know if I find out what it says about Hubal OneGuy 04:03, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


By the way, even the neutral/Islamic sources cited in this article show that Hubal was not a moon god. He was an idol in Kaaba, but certainly not a moon god. I don't think your ritual of adding the phrase "moon god" (is that some kind of ritual or what?) every time after the name Hubal is justified (especially as you did in the article on Uzza). OneGuy 04:21, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is it NPOV to say that the Quraish were 'freed' from Hubal. That could be seen as an assertion of his existance (possibly offensive to followers of Islam), couldn't it?

Many historical facts are "offensive" to some cult or another. There is an Arabic Wikipedia for this kind of apologetic falsehood. --Wetman 19:43, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Of the many unsourced claims in this article for which the authoritative and extensive al-Kalbi offers no support, the most notable are:

  • that Hubal was a moon god (notably not in the Encyclopedia of Islam, as quoted by Christian evangelicals trying to prove this[1]);
  • that the three goddesses were his daughters (the Qur'an indicates that they were believed to be Allah's daughters);
  • that the three goddesses were manifestions of the same goddess (a point contradicted, if anything, by al-Kalbi);
  • that Hubal was called Allah (specifically contradicted by the little anecdote about the battle of Uhud: (abu-Sufyan ibn-Harb said "Hubal, be thou exalted"; to which the Prophet replied: "Allah is more exalted and more majestic.") as well as by the Encyclopedia of Islam.

Care to provide sources, anybody? - Mustafaa 22:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The article was written by Wetman who apparently got all these claims (and he calls it "historical facts") from a Christian apologist site (see the external link section). The article claims positively that Hubal was a moon god. What's the source for that? Even if one source does say Hubal was moon god, this is still disputed and contradicted by other sources. The article also contradicts itself by claiming in one place that Hubal and Allah are the same, but yet the battle of Uhud incidence contradicts that OneGuy 22:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I should also mention one instance of outright dishonesty: compare [2] (scarcely a friendly witness!) with the quote given in the article. Note anything fishy? - Mustafaa 22:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Corrected now... bu watch out! - Mustafaa 22:59, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For the record: before correction, this said: "According to Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar, Muhammad The Holy Prophet (1969), "About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo bin Harath bin Amr ul-Qais bin Thalaba bin Azd bin Khalan bin Babalyun bin Saba, a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, [more usually called Amr ibn Luhayy] had put an idol called Hubal or a moon or crescent on the roof of the Kaaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam and the God of Muhammed's father Abdullah or servant of Allah of the Kaaba." false quotes in italics. - Mustafaa 23:02, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
That was apparently added by an anon: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubal&diff=9894750&oldid=9894580 - Mustafaa 23:12, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

---

How can Hubal be related to Ba`al??[edit]

Ba`al has an Ayn consonant in the middle of its name, while Hubal (if the spelling used in this article is correct) doesn't. That just about destroys the plausibility of the Ba`al etymology (unless you posit a borrowing from Akkadian Bel!). Furthermore, this definite article thing would be a lot more plausible if there were a shadda over the ba. AnonMoos 05:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Removal[edit]

I have removed teh following bizarre claim:

One etymology of the Arabic word al-Lāh "God" identifies ilh as the term Jāhilī Arabs used for images used in ancestral worship. With the advent of Islam, Hubal was elevated from the status of ilāh "ancestral spirit image" to al-Ilāh, meaning "God". (Natural language change caused this to be eclipsed as al-Lāh. ) (F._E._Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam, "The Gods and the Shrine".)

because Google Books has the alleged source and does not have any book containing the words "ancestral spirit image". The quote must therefore be fraudulent, or at best misunderstood. - Mustafaa 00:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Enuma elish?[edit]

Is it seriously suggested that the name "Hubal" is to be found in the Enuma Elish? If so, source please? - Mustafaa 00:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


Allah to the pre-islamic christians and jews[edit]

If find this following statement very interesting. But it would be more hulpful to cite the source: Arab Christians refered to God as Allah before the arrival of Islam. Thanks for understanding.Read3r 15:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone gave a source speaking on the use of Allah in pre-islamic arabic speaking. There were many links to click, and supposing i found finally the aimed link, i think the source is propagandic. Some words and then claiming it's proven. I don't think that is convincing. The fact that someone used a name such "Abdellah" does not mean that the allah was the identic word to "God". Because other people used also names as "Abdmanaf", nevertheless, Manaf is not identic to the word "god". therefore, i reverted the article. If someone else believe that was an objective citation. I would agree to remove the template "citation needed". Read3r 17:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I added the previous Islamic source. Anyway, I replaced it by two Christian sources supporting that fact. KMF

Can you provide the exact citation that "Allah" was used by the pre-islamic jews and christians. In fact, i'm quasi-convinced that such claim is unsourced. But i'm sure that my knowledge is Null, So, i will waint until you give the citation you meant. In case, you didn't provide a citation [Please no long articles, because we don't need to read all the pages or sites] i wil put that "citation needed" again. Best regards. Read3r 15:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hubal and Allah[edit]

The first couple of sentence in this section were remarkably biased, giving the impression that the author thereof looked to put forth a particular argument of his/her own to refute the claim. It did not acknowlege a counter argument, and took the one given to be a conclusive piece of evidene rather than an infered opinion. I have since editted it to create neutrality

---

I removed "Cristian apologist" from the describtion of the american clergyman, as apologist is a deragotory term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.109.61.253 (talk) 14:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it? I think you may be misunderstanding the word. Apologist doesn't mean "one who makes excuses [for something wrong or evil]". It means "a person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution" (American Heritage, 4E). It's one who makes an apologia, not one who makes an apology in the modern sense.  :) Elmo iscariot (talk) 12:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Hubal and Kybele[edit]

There is no info in the article regarding the relationship of Hubal and Anatolian mother-goddess Kybele, who was also symbolized as the Moon, anyone has any references about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.54.242.37 (talk) 15:13, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Needs rewriting[edit]

This page is in serious need of a rewrite. Most of the text is based on spurious, unsourced and unlikely speculations formulated by Christian apologists such as Dunkin and, now, discarded theories from almost one hundred years before the present date that have been taken up by Christian Fundamentalists to try to fabricate evidence that the Arabs worshipped a "moon-deity" and that he is one and the same as "Al-ileh" or "Allah" (meaning "the god" and according to Arabic and Islamic mythology the creator deity), Sorry this article is a disgrace and doesn't conform to any of the standards Wikipedia claims and wishes to up hold.

This needs a rewrite using valid unbiased sources; especially works by actual, modern scholars of this subject. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 13:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Irrationality[edit]

In a christian society, maybe the sheer irrationality of claiming "Allah is a moongod" is not visible? And even the most superficial reader will find verses against moon-worship, and verses that are similar to how the Bible decribes God. It is the same God. Allah is a shortened form of Al Ilah. Which means "The God", as we would use "The Lord" today. Anyone who knows idolatry knows it is about amoral values. The Quran is very moral, and very decent. And refutes idolatry. This indeed says more about the irrationality of these christians. In discussions with such christians I have made these verses clear to them, and they still go on claiming the same, without any interest in what the texts says, or rational thinking. Ofcourse the christians are just as irrational as the extreme sects they claim are muslims. Who are also behaving similary. Do note that arabic-speaking christians also use "Allah", and that El, (God) is used in the Bible aswell. Mika-El, using a suffix that means the same. The Arabic "Abd Allah" or "Abdullah", meaning "servant of God". What "Mika" means I am not going to claim for certain.

Peace Be With You.

Frankly, these are people that misunderstand the meaning and purpose of their own faith most of the time. The only interest they have in Islam is a negative one; to cherry-pick a verse here and a verse there so as to create a caricature of Islam and Muslims that suits their own ends. The less time you waste thinking of them, the better, just don't think them typical of any group, Christians, American, et cetera. Peace be with you, as well.--172.129.21.223 (talk) 08:04, 14 March 2014 (UTC)