|WikiProject Chemistry||(Rated B-class, High-importance)|
- 1 H4o
- 2 Steam
- 3 Solvation shells
- 4 Some error ?
- 5 oxonium and hydronium ions are different
- 6 Pure Hydronium?
- 7 pKa?
- 8 Picture of Hydronium Ion
- 9 Zundel Cations
- 10 Requested move - January 2009
- 11 Hydroxonium/Hydronium and IUPAC
- 12 Salts and Hydro"di"um
- 13 H3O2?
- 14 pH
- 15 Diameter
- 16 pH again
- 17 Hydronium structure/lifetime in neutral water and in a strong acid
- 18 Isotopic effects
I just wanna ask about the h4o bonded water a product from japan since 2007. the company has stated that "H4O -600mV is the most powerful hydrogen enhanced water with a perfect pH of 7.3. Hydrogen selectively eliminates free radicals, the ones that damage our cells. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule and since it is a gas it easily passes through your body. We measured an increase in hydrogen within the blood after drinking. H4O -600mV contains 1,500,000 times more hydrogen than tap water and 24 to 36 more times than alkaline electrolysis water. Most nutraceutical beverages are hot-filled and have preservatives, which keeps extends the expiration date by 1-2 years." Is there any validity to this given information? (vahn_dinio) 00:35, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
No. The talk about free radicals is gibberish, and an actual increase in hydrogen within the blood will kill you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:27, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
- ) I have added information from a recent article by MArkovitch & Agmon to the solvation section.
I don't think this is entirely appropriate for the general hydronium article. If the figure or related information can be found in the reference then I think it's enough for interested parties. Perhaps you can add to the Grotthuss mechanism page. Pigwiggle 18:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Already in my to-do list. Thanks, Omer.
Some error ?
-- BEGIN QUOTATION --
Two other well-known structures are the Zundel and Eigen cations. Eigen placed the hydronium ion at the centre of an H9O4+ complex in which the hydronium is strongly hydrogen-bonded to 3 neighbouring water molecules (3). Eigen proposed an H5O2+ complex, in which the proton is shared equally by two water molecules (4).
(3) Zundel, G. & Metzger, H. (1968) Energiebänder der tunnelnden Übershuß-Protenon in flüssigen Säuren. Eine IR-spektroskopische Untersuchung der Natur der Gruppierungen H5O2+ Z. Phys. Chem. 58 225-245.
(4) Wicke, E.; Eigen, M. & Ackermann, Th. (1954) Über den Zustand des Protons (Hydroniumions) in wäßriger Lösung. Z. Phys. Chem. 1 340-364.
-- END QUOTATION --
Actually, I'm unable to verify the articles (not so easy), but there is probably something wrong:
-) The (3) is a Zundel's, not Eigen's, article.
-) From the article it seems that Eigen proposed both models, and it's not clear which is the Zundel and which the Eigen cations formula.
-) I'm quite sure that Zundel (not Eigen) proposed the H5O2+ structure. See, for example, J. Chem. Phys., Vol. 116, No. 2, 8 January 2002 (or simply the title of Zundel's article (3)). (But I could be wrong)
- It doesn't matter who proposed what, but rather what the solvation structure is called. Pigwiggle
=) Actually, Eigens vision was that the H3O+ ion is better described as H9O4+, which includes the H3O+ and it's first solvation shell. This effects many properties, for example - the diffusion of this larger structure will be slower. We have recently reported energetics of the hydronium solvation shells and found that the hydrogen bonds between the H3O+ and it's first solvation shell are indeed quite strong. I'll post a link to the article (from Journal of Physical Chemistry A) soon. omermar 07/03/2007
oxonium and hydronium ions are different
an oxonium ion is R3O+ and can be hydronium but also a protonated ketone or aldehyde, I propose to split of oxonium to the more general meaning V8rik 22:39, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
- Well, that's based off the solvent system definition isn't it? In which case, that would be the Solvonium, or <anything>-ium relative to dissociation of afforementioned compound/molecule. Beside that, the OXO is the IUPAC prefix for oxygen -- if there is a functional bonding atom it'd be named off what that was; ammonium, phosphonium, iodonium. Get your IUPAC Systematic Substitutive Nomenclature books :-3 J O R D A N [talk ] 15:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Isn't the IUPAC name actually HYDROXONIUM? 126.96.36.199 12:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
- maybe, but no one uses it.Pigwiggle 16:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
that doesnt matter. what matters is what it is. Javsav 11:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Fine, but don't get all excited about moving the page or anything. Folks will be coming here to read about the hydronium cation. I'm exceedingly familiar with the literature and absolutely everyone uses hydronium. I don't recall ever reading oxonium or hydroxonium. I'd bet the farm hydronium is used exclusively in the page references. Pigwiggle 14:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I am from Hungary and here it used to be called hidroxonium but now the official name is simly oxonium. May it have happened to the english name, too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Can you make pure hydronium?
=) I suppose you could, if you took a measured quantity of a strong mineral acid (HCl or some such) and added an equal amount of moles of pure water to it. If you then filter out the anions (Cl) by putting it through a membrane, you would be left with hydronium.
- doubt it; you would have a huge charge deficit not to mention two highly reducing/oxidizing solutions Pigwiggle 16:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
=) I agree. The closest you can do is highly acidic solution, but then you will also have the counter ion. For example - adding lots of HCl will increase your eigen/zundel cations, but would also leave Cl-. What you can do is simulate pure hydronium; We have recently reported for the first time the energetics of hydronium solvation shells (In journal of Physical Chemistry A). I'll post a link here soon. omermar 07/03/2007
- The only way you can have pure hydronium is in the gas phase. Not something you would store in a bottle, though. --Itub 10:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- You can make pure hydronium (i.e., H3O+ instead of larger clusters) with a counterion simply by making the monohydrate of a strong acid such as triflic. But there's no way you can "filter out the anions".Tressure 21:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Unless you could somehow make the hydronium ions adopt a metallic state, similar to the theorized metallic hydrogen. Then you could filter them out in pure form. This would require extremely high pressures (it might not even be possible to do so at all without decomposing the ions, however). Stonemason89 (talk) 14:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Nope, because hydronium is a cation, while hydrogen (metallic or not) is electrically neutral. Perhaps you could make a "metallic H3O", but not a "metallic H3O+". --Itub (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- You can make pure hydronium by using a voltage clamp; a pipette with a positively charged cathode (wire attached to battery). The cathode will attract the conjugate anion in the mineral acid, say Cl- in HCl. The stronger the cathode and with increasing treatments, you will increase the hydronium concentration relative to the conjugate anion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 01:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The pKa given for the hydronium ion is meaningless. The Ka for hydronium is the equilibrium constant for the reaction H3O+ + H2O <-> H2O + H3O+. This is a null reaction (products are the same as the reactants), so the equilibrium constant is, by definition, one. The Ka given of 55.5 is calculated by ignoring the concentration of water as a reactant (because it's a solvent), but -not- ignoring it as a product. I can think of few conventions which are sillier.Tressure 21:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- No, the value given is correct. We are comparing it to other pKas in which the solvent (water) is omitted but the product (deprotonated species, in this case happens to be water as well) is not. This means we can compare it to other acids.220.127.116.11 (talk) 13:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
- This has been discussed several times in the Journal of Chemical Education, and both positions have been advocated. The strict thermodynamic point of view is that K = 1 (and similarly, Ka = Kw = 10^-14 for the acidity of water itself). The activity of water is 1 because it is the solvent, and there are no grounds for distinguishing between "reactant water" and "solvent water" in the equilibrium. However, some authors prefer to make this arbitrary distinction in order to facilitate comparison with other acids. See J. Chem. Ed. v. 68, p. 305; 64, 1067; 82, 999; 83, 1290; and 63, 473.
- A key point is that the acidity (self-ionization) of a pure substance is not directly comparable with the acidity of a dilute solute in water, which is what one normally represents with a pKa. However, one can make the following thought experiment to come up with the famous Ka = 55.5. Imagine a 1 M solution of "H3O*+" in water, where the asterisk means a labeled oxygen such as oxygen-18. Assuming no equilibrium isotope effects, what will happen? Since the excess proton has no preference towards either type of oxygen, it will simply get diluted; as "normal oxygens" outnumber "labeled oxygens" 55 to 1, only 1/55 of the excess protons will end up bound to an oxygen-18 atom. The result: an equilibrium constant of 55. But this only arises because we distinguish between the "acid", for which the reference state is 1 M, and the "solvent", for which the reference state is the pure solvent. --Itub (talk) 10:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Picture of Hydronium Ion
Can somebody please add details about the bond length and bond angles of the ion in the molecule picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chemfreak20 (talk • contribs) 12:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Who are Zundel cations (mentioned in the article) named after? If I just type "Zundel" into the search box, it takes me to an article about a neo-Nazi. I'm assuming he's not the same guy that discovered Zundel cations, but you never know.
It would be useful to clarify exactly who the eponymous Zundel is, and maybe provide a link to the article about him on WP, if one exists (if not, then one should probably be created since he's definitely notable enough to have one, if he had the H5O2+ cation named after him). Stonemason89 (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
- It is named after Georg Zundel. There is an article about him in the German Wikipedia (de:Georg Zundel). --Itub (talk) 19:29, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Requested move - January 2009
Hydroxonium/Hydronium and IUPAC
The page for Acid–base reaction states that IUPAC is depreciating other terms in favor of "hydronium", and the hydronium page states that IUPAC prefers hydroxonium. It is unlikely that these are both correct, anyone have a firm reference on this? Daviga1 (talk) 04:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Salts and Hydro"di"um
Is it possible to create a salt of hydronium, or will any attempt just decompose into an acid and water? Secondly, since water has two free electron pairs, is there any evidence for H4O2+? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 02:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- 1) yes, see Hydronium#Solid_hydronium_salts. 2) yes, see J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1986, 108 (5), pp 1032–1035, Chem Phys Lett, 140 (6) pp.579-581 and a handful other articles. --Cubbi (talk) 02:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Would it possible for a bond to form between an O and an O+, and then a hydrogen and the O and two hydrogens and the O+?
H > O+ - O - H H
A sort of hydronium-peroxide?
This needs to be fixed: "In pure water, there is an equal number of hydroxide and hydronium ions so it has a neutral pH of 7."
That is confusing, and arguably incorrect. It is my understanding that pH = 7 means there are 10e-7 hydrogen cations per liter, not that there are equal numbers of anions and cations. That happens to be the case, but only because the reaction creating the ions is in equilibrium. Someone more knowledgeable than I should fix it.
Hydronium structure/lifetime in neutral water and in a strong acid
I was wondering about the following sentence in the article which I think is important but which has no reference:
"Unlike hydronium in neutral solutions that result from water's autodissociation, hydronium ions in acidic solutions are long-lasting and concentrated, in proportion to the strength of the dissolved acid."
I wonder if I can get more information/references on this particular point.