Talk:Independent Catholic churches
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Breakaway Catholic Churches
I read in the "Independent Catholic churches" article ( ) that:
Independent clergy have often received multiple ordinations/consecrations in an attempt to ensure a broad and diverse claim to apostolic succession. Though perhaps less prevalent than in the past, the practice continues; for example, Archbishop Peter Paul Brennan of the African Orthodox Church, one of four who were conditionally ordained to the episcopate by the excommunicated Catholic Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo on 24 September 2006, claims to have been first consecrated on 10 June 1978, and subsequently conditionally consecrated a number of times prior to the ceremony conducted by Archbishop Milingo. Also, in 2007, various independent Catholic bishops in the UK underwent multiple mutual reconsecrations "as a gesture of unity".
I also read in the "Hugh George de Willmott Newman" article () that:
On April 10, 1944 Newman was consecrated a bishop by William Bernard Crow, whose own consecration derived from the Armenian Catholic Church. Over the ten years 1945 to 1955, Newman engaged in cross-consecrating, where he and another bishop would consecrate each other to give each the other's lines of succession.
Newman consecrated, or shared cross-consecration with, at least 32 bishops. Today, there are hundreds of bishops around the world, perhaps thousands, with a lines of succession deriving through Hugh de Willmott Newman.
I don't understand the concepts of "several consecrations in an attempt to secure a more diverse claim to apostolic succession", "shared cross-consecration", or "multiple mutual reconsecrations 'as a gesture of unity' ".
The Newman article cites The Encyclopedia of American Religions. The 2009 edition of a newer version titled Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions states that:
Episcopally led churches have traditionally based their legitimacy on their ability to trace their line of succession from the original 12 apostles. That is, for a bishop to be validly consecrated, and thus able to validly ordain priests, that bishop must himself be consecrated by a validly consecrated bishop. Thus, the story of the independent Old Catholic jurisdictions in America is the story of the search for legitimacy through ever more valid consecrations. In the 1980s, it became common for independent bishops to receive multiple consecrations, especially after changing allegiance to a different jurisdiction.(p84)
At the same time, the independent movement developed an antiauthoritarian character. Most of its bishops were self-appointed and maintained relatively miniscule followings. They have pressed for recognition of orders while demanding an independence of jurisdiction from those who granted orders. As an attempt at legitimization, they have sought recognition or reconsecration by bishops of one of the Eastern Orthodox or non-Chalcedonian churches (often after being rebuffed by the archbishop of Utrecht, the head of the Old Catholic Church).(p83)
By the 1990s, the several lines of apostolic succession had become well established in the person of a large number of the independent bishops; thus the need for reconsecration services of newer bishops, so notable in the 1980s, became unnecessary. The different lineages were passed simultaneously, and the practice of multiple consecrations has largely disappeared.(p84)
[...] Willmott Newman can be credited with introducing an increasingly common practice among the autonomous bishops, that of seeking numerous reconsecrations in order to legitimize an otherwise minuscule ecclesiastical jurisdiction by having its bishop embody a wide variety of lines of apostolic succession, both East and West. Such jurisdictions would symbolize the ecumenical church.(p84)
Are these understood as conditional ordinations and consecrations? There should be a paragraph in the article about this.
I have today (19 Aug 2014) done some work on the "Holy orders" section of the "Independent Catholic churches" page and also some further re-work on the page on HGWW, with an objective of addressing the concerns and comments voiced above (dated 23 June 2014). I have tried to express the matters without resorting to un-defined jargon or technical terms. I hope User BoBoMisiu may now consider that the situation is improved. What I have now written is probably about the best I am going to be able to achieve without going into an over-lengthy explanation and teach-in. If it is judged to be less than satisfactory, perhaps someone else would like to attempt to improve the situation please. Diakonias (talk) 20:02, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Neutral point of view
The current editorial perspective negatively judges the subjects of the article at various points and so does not meet the neutrality guidelines. Such assertions are not backed by references. Additionally, the "ecclesiology" section only considers the responses of church bodies who are not the subject of the article. While relevant, it is too long in what it does cover and incomplete in not covering the actual ecclesiology of the subject churches. --Metagignosko (talk) 02:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think you need to be more specific so that other editors can consider your suggested improvements. --Tb (talk) 05:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- Here are examples:
Many have embraced the model of parish organisation in which a bishop, not a priest, is the pastor of a parish. This model enables those who wish to become bishops to rationalise the process even when there are no other members of the clergy in the group. Thus, a high percentage of Independent clergy end up seeking ordination to the episcopacy. Congregations tend to be minuscule and sometimes even non-existent.
- No citations. Negative characterization. Epistemologically dubious statement concerning the internal mental state of subjects (wishes, rationalizations) with no citation of scientific research that may be performed to ascertain such mental states.
In the United Kingdom there are several who make a substantial income by conducting marriages and/or funerals, from high church to humanist or even pagan in character, leading to the charge that these people see ministry as a career rather than as a vocation.
- No citations. Negative characterization. If there is such a "charge," it should be cited from reliable sources.
Yet, others would argue that the views of Utrecht, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy are of significant importance as is it they who are universally regarded as been the guardians of the definition of apostolic succession. The claims of the Independent movement to apostolic succession are rejected by the very churches which the Independent clergy accept as guardians, and to which they appeal.
- No citations. If there are such "others" they should be cited from reliable sources.
- The conclusions of the Ecclesiology section, as much of the rest of the article, seems to largely consist of original research. The second paragraph is notable in this regard, many conclusions with no citations. And, as I stated above, it is odd to have such a long section nominally presented to be the ecclesiology of the subjects of the article which has nothing to say about that topic. Instead it should be retitled something like "Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox reactions to Apostolic claims," and substantially shortened. If there are no reliable sources to cite for the conclusions stated, it will need to be removed. --Metagignosko (talk) 10:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- Whoever tried to "fix" these problems, though, made the same sort of errors, only from a different POV. There are some seriously opinionated claims here now, plus unattributed quotes or opinions and the invoking of nonexistent statistics. Those which stood out for me I marked with tags, but some editor who's competent with the topic will have to rewrite those passages in a more appropriate tone (and possibly with a more appropriate content). --Rafu (talk) 04:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
An editor has decided to introduce the Roman Catholic terminology war here. I object. "Roman Catholic" is a term often used by, among other things, the actual people to whom it refers (including examples carved into stonework of churches, web sites, official documents from the See of Rome, and elsewhere). No aspect of the manual of style takes a position on such things, and the argument that the term should be avoided is itself the expression of a POV, which is in part designed to further an agenda in which the term "Catholic" refers only to those churches in communion with the Diocese of Rome. In articles which are (as this one) explicitly about other Catholic churches, it is particularly offensive to have this going on. --Tb (talk) 18:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I would appreciate actual discussion on the point. The new edits are, in my opinion, quite mistaken, and if they seek after compromise, I'd like to see the various parties express themselves before the change is made. --Tb (talk) 00:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
- I would like to mention that it appears (from reading everything including the past history) there is no direct link to the actual term "Catholic" in the entire article. There is a whole definition of the word which is separate and apart from any church entity. I believe (personal opinion here) there does need to be some sort of distinction between the various "Catholic" denominations. The term "Roman Catholic Church" (see Roman Catholic), though only recently used, is generally accepted to mean the "Church in full communion with the Bishop of Rome...". The term "Independent Catholic" has come to mean any "Catholic" Church not in union with the Bishop of Rome (also known as the pope) and further distinctions exist such as "Old Catholic", Orthodox, Free, African, and a whole host of others. It is, in my opinion, extremely difficult to read through an article that mentions only the catholic church and no other distinction. There needs to be definition in place to understand the actual divergences or differences which may or may not lie in the practice of worship and/or allegiance to a hierarchy.
- It may seem as if this is a matter of mincing words, but semantics can be an important factor in any definition as there must be agreed upon definitions and accepted norms in order to be able to get across what one is saying. To simply say "the catholic church is..." is very misleading as there are many different types of catholic church. Are you talking about a particular denomination, a particular style of, or are you even talking about a church's universality in belief of God.
- So, though I have not made any substantial edits to this page, I feel semantics are important here and a general accepted norm does need to be established to ensure distinction and to avoid greater future confusion. Said norm needs to be published and agreed upon by any person editing the page before said edits are made. --Kjnelan (talk) 18:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
What is an Independent Catholic Church?
After reading the article I went into some doubt about what qualifies as such. My first reading seemed to be just a hodgepodge of self styled "catholic" minority denominations. Not until I perused some of the web references could i get a clear understanding of what the article is about (it is described in the introduction but I didn't get it at first, to much noise to info ratio).
According to this an ICC is a "community faith which has an episcopal order for which it claims is in apostolic succession and to have valid sacraments (esp. Eucharist)" but are not in communion with any of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches, or the Oriental Churches".
Readers will note that i have taken out two denominations from the not in communion clause. The Old Catholics and the Anglican Communion. The first because they fit perfectly into the definition of independent; without treating them, a good deal of the phenomenon is almost unintelligible -the article starts with them- and in more than one sense is the paradigmatic case. The Anglicans, at least the Anglo Catholics, claim to be catholic in the above definition, but are nowadays not acknowledged as such by none of the "Old Three". In this sense -and but for its volume- she is just another Independent "Church"
You will also note that the definition matches almost "verbatim" the requisites of Dominus Iesus for calling a christian denomination a Church, according to Rome. The Catholic Church happens to be the only one which has developed a certain juridical system on testing the "apostolic succession" (more on a case law style, but anyhow), which seems to have been more or less silently accepted as a "standard" (on a side note, i do am a RC, so i'm bound to it, anyway; and yes i know a number of Orthodox theologians would even deny validity to RC orders, ...)
There is a wild diversity of ICC, but with the exception of the Anglican "chaos", most seem not to claim inheritance from the Reformation. I'd say it could also a common characteristic, but I'll leave it for someone more expert in "denominational taxonomy"
- Your second sentence starts... According to this.... According to what specifically? Where is that definition? Is it something you've come up with as a result of your many searches? I'm not trying to be combative, I'd genuinely like to know as yours is the first attempt in a long time to actually try to fix this article.
- I too searched and after going through many of the sites listed in the External Links section of the article, it appears the commonly accepted definition of Independent Catholic is any catholic entity which is not in communion with the Holy See (i.e. The Bishop of Rome, or what is commonly referred to as the "Pope" in the Roman Catholic Church.) But that is also my own take on what they are trying to convey though I did word that somewhat from Dominus Iesus since that document uses the term communion to describe churches who have broken away from, but still celebrate with the Roman Catholic Church.
- Perhaps the intro should be worded simply and not with POV! I'll take a stab at it. See what you think. Let's fix this article!!! Kjnelan (talk) 18:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- Is St. Stanislaus Kostka Church (St. Louis, Missouri) an Independent Catholic Church?--WlaKom (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Patrickinmpls, please put your comments separated from those of the other users, and sign them. I don't mind being formatted for the sake of discussion but not "edited". You made it in a way it looks as I had written it, which is NOT the case. As I presume you're a newcomer I simple move your comments and my counter arguments down here. --Wllacer (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The movement was started by one or more legitimate bishops of one of the "Big Three"
— User:Wllacer 21:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please enumerate, Lefebvre, and who else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrickinmpls (talk • contribs) 13:46, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- I left it open because history gives you some surprises. Think of formal schisms of local churches –or at least an organized body– where the legitimate bishop is the head. From the top of my head, and for the sake of this article, undoubtedly the original Utrecht Church and the Costa-Duarte line (Brazilian National Church). Lefebre's, Antônio de Castro Mayer's and the Chinese Patriotic are distinct in the sense their groups wouldn't consider themselves an Independent Church; moreover Castro's successor is already in full communion with Rome, and many chinese "official" bishops maintain some kind of (not too underground) links with Rome.
- If Milingo were to openly head a schismatic group then he would qualify here for this group (as sometimes appear). But none can be sure about him.
- Thuc ordained irregular bishops, but never headed a schismatic body (in the second group then). Nor Mathews or Vilatte line would qualify here, because they were NOT regular members of the church which consecrated them bishops. --Wllacer (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Milingo's ordinations are rejected for lack of intent (it's very doubtful that he still believes in the episcopal order, and there is some suspicion about his mental health
— User:Wllacer 21:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- Also many would reject the consecration because it happened in 1969 after the new rite of episcopal consecration was introduced by Pope Paul VI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrickinmpls (talk • contribs) 13:37, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
- Milingo was the first –or at least in the first batch– bishop ordained with the new Pontifical, but this has absolutely no bearing on Rome's view of his ordinations. If you were a staunch "sedevacantist" maybe, but only to the extent that you wouldn't consider ANY consecration with the new Pontifical as valid. --Wllacer (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
- If I could just interject here a second – about Mathew, he was most definitely a "regular" member of the UU until he issued A Declaration of Autonomy And Independence in 1910, and there exist opposing positions even within the UU as to the validity of his succession, most of the derogatory positions being polemical – certainly some bishops/clergy of his succession have been reconciled with Utrecht since and positive dialogue has existed between some "independent" Old Catholic churches and Utrecht. "Canonically" speaking, one must accuse Mathew of being a formal "schismatic" from the UU, for he was most definitely a recognised member of that Church's hierarchy before his secession from it. The Mathew succession has even been accepted or pronounced upon as "valid" even by Roman Catholic investigators. If it weren't for the distinct negative bias of this article I would offer citations, but frankly, noting that despite some excellent observations and suggestions here, no changes have been effected, I hardly see the point. --Periti (talk) 19:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd love to have some more info about Mathew. My knowledge is at best sketchy, but if I remember correctly, Mathew was at the time of his ordination married, while then valid canons in Utrecht demanded celibacy at least for bishops. There were also complains about intention after 1910 (but who knows!) So your statement comes as a bit of a surprise to me (i'm not aware of bishops/priests of the Mathew lines being received with at most conditional ordination in the Church. Ops, sorry, in the RC Church ;-)
- On the other hand, even acknowledging Mathew's and Villate's ordinations as valid, before them they were NOT members of the Church which ordained them. In Mathew's case, if i remember correctly, it was done explicitly for creating a new independent body but in communion with the UU. Maybe we both are right and is part of a "grey area".
- For the time being i'm still following a policy of not editing articles, but I still hope someone can pick up the suggestions in this talk page and rewrite this article. --Wllacer (talk) 18:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Faith and Practice
I removed the sentence which stated: "In the mind of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic and Utrecht churches such beliefs as theosophy and reincarnation would render invalid any ordinations regardless of the rite employed in the ceremony."
I've searched through many RCC documents regarding this statement and while it is incongruent with RCC teaching, there is nothing which states the belief in such would render the ordination of anyone invalid. It is considered as improper teaching as evidenced by: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html, but again, nothing has been found to support the sentence.
That sentence was also POV which adds to the other discussions above. We need to remember this is an article ABOUT the Independent Catholic Movement, not a chance to condemn, ridicule, or denigrate. Kjnelan (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- As far as I know, there are several aspects in this question, from a Catholic point of view. Heretics DO confer valid orders (this is a consensual view since Augustinus in the West) as long it is done according to the "rules" and with the proper intention (cf. Apostolicae Curae, nr 33 passim). An open question is, though, if doctrinal drift (esp. regarding order) does openly negates "proper intention". A case in point -more mainstream- would be the discussion around "Old Catholic" orders after its recent development.
- In the East, the Augustinian view never has been fully acknowledged, so it is not uncommon to see opinions negating the validity of even "simply schismatic" orders. --Wllacer (talk) 10:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Mathew was not the first. He joined the Ealing schism. Also, other independent ecclesial communities in Great Britain were organized earlier. For example, the adventist Catholic Apostolic Church was organised in 1835. Another example is Jules Ferrette's attempts. --BoBoMisiu (talk) 02:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)