Talk:Independent Catholic churches
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Independent Catholic churches article.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Merge
- 2 Independent Catholic Church USA
- 3 "multiple ordinations"
- 4 Roman catholic
- 5 Neutrality and Focus
- 6 Breakaway Catholic Churches
- 7 What is an Independent Catholic Church?. A few comments about the introduction
- 8 A quick test on legitimate Apostolic Succession
- 9 External Links
- 10 Faith and Practice
- 11 Incorrect Link
- 12 References
- Merge performed on 3/12/07 Timotheos 18:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Independent Catholic Church USA
Independent Catholic Church USA has been listed for deletion over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Independent Catholic Church USA, and it seems like people who've edited this article might be able to say whether Independent Catholic Church USA should be deleted or merged or what. Cheyinka (talk) 20:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Independent Catholic Church USA should probably be transformed into a link in this article. Unless someone wants to significantly expand the other article to make a case for notability, it seems like it should be treated as one instance of an independent catholic church, rather than meriting its own separate treatment. As far as I know, it is a small church and does not possess unique features that would set it apart from many other similar bodies. John7137 (talk) 19:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
My change has been changed re this. I see the problem: does "multiple ordinations" refer to one ceremony where a multiplicity of men is ordained (which is quite acceptable to Catholics, but not really to Orthodox) or a multiplicity of ceremonies (subsequent to one another) where the same man is ordained repeatedly? Richardson mcphillips1 (talk) 18:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
thanks! Ok, I added the note '(i.e. sequential)' to make it clear for me. I have seen the phrase 'multiple ordinations' used by Orthodox in the sense of what they also call 'cluster ordinations' which they don't practice.Richardson mcphillips1 (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
An editor has decided to introduce the Roman Catholic terminology war here. I object. "Roman Catholic" is a term often used by, among other things, the actual people to whom it refers (including examples carved into stonework of churches, web sites, official documents from the See of Rome, and elsewhere). No aspect of the manual of style takes a position on such things, and the argument that the term should be avoided is itself the expression of a POV, which is in part designed to further an agenda in which the term "Catholic" refers only to those churches in communion with the Diocese of Rome. In articles which are (as this one) explicitly about other Catholic churches, it is particularly offensive to have this going on. Tb (talk) 18:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I would appreciate actual discussion on the point. The new edits are, in my opinion, quite mistaken, and if they seek after compromise, I'd like to see the various parties express themselves before the change is made. Tb (talk) 00:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
- I would like to mention that it appears (from reading everything including the past history) there is no direct link to the actual term "Catholic" in the entire article. There is a whole definition of the word which is separate and apart from any church entity. I believe (personal opinion here) there does need to be some sort of distinction between the various "Catholic" denominations. The term "Roman Catholic Church" (see Roman_Catholic), though only recently used, is generally accepted to mean the "Church in full communion with the Bishop of Rome...". The term "Independent Catholic" has come to mean any "Catholic" Church not in Union with the Bishop of Rome (also known as the pope) and further distinctions exist such as "Old Catholic", Orthodox, Free, African, and a whole host of others. It is, in my opinion, extremely difficult to read through an article that mentions only the catholic church and no other distinction. There needs to be definition in place to understand the actual divergences or differences which may or may not lie in the practice of worship and/or allegiance to a hierarchy.
- It may seem as if this is a matter of mincing words, but Semantics can be an important factor in any definition as there must be agreed upon definitions and accepted norms in order to be able to get across what one is saying. To simply say "the catholic church is..." is very misleading as there are many different types of catholic church. Are you talking about a particular denomination, a particular style of, or are you even talking about a church's universality in belief of God.
- So, though I have not made any substantial edits to this page, I feel semantics are important here and a general accepted norm does need to be established to ensure distinction and to avoid greater future confusion. Said norm needs to be published and agreed upon by any person editing the page before said edits are made. Kjnelan (talk) 18:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Neutrality and Focus
The current editorial perspective negatively judges the subjects of the article at various points and so does not meet the neutrality guidelines. Such assertions are not backed by references.
Additionally, the "ecclesiology" section only considers the responses of church bodies who are not the subject of the article. While relevant, it is too long in what it does cover and incomplete in not covering the actual ecclesiology of the subject churches. Metagignosko (talk) 02:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think you need to be more specific so that other editors can consider your suggested improvements. Tb (talk) 05:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
- Here are examples
- "Many have embraced the model of parish organisation in which a bishop, not a priest, is the pastor of a parish. This model enables those who wish to become bishops to rationalise the process even when there are no other members of the clergy in the group. Thus, a high percentage of Independent clergy end up seeking ordination to the episcopacy. Congregations tend to be minuscule and sometimes even non-existent." No citations. Negative characterization. Epistemologically dubious statement concerning the internal mental state of subjects (wishes, rationalizations) with no citation of scientific research that may be performed to ascertain such mental states.
- "In the United Kingdom there are several who make a substantial income by conducting marriages and/or funerals, from high church to humanist or even pagan in character, leading to the charge that these people see ministry as a career rather than as a vocation." No citations. Negative characterization. If there is such a "charge," it should be cited from reliable sources.
- "Yet, others would argue that the views of Utrecht, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy are of significant importance as is it they who are universally regarded as been the guardians of the definition of apostolic succession. The claims of the Independent movement to apostolic succession are rejected by the very churches which the Independent clergy accept as guardians, and to which they appeal." No citations. If there are such "others" they should be cited from reliable sources.
- The conclusions of the Ecclesiology section, as much of the rest of the article, seems to largely consist of original research. The second paragraph is notable in this regard, many conclusions with no citations. And, as I stated above, it is odd to have such a long section nominally presented to be the ecclesiology of the subjects of the article which has nothing to say about that topic. Instead it should be retitled something like "Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox reactions to Apostolic claims," and substantially shortened. If there are no reliable sources to cite for the conclusions stated, it will need to be removed. Metagignosko (talk) 10:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Whoever tried to "fix" these problems, though, made the same sort of errors, only from a different POV. There are some seriously opinionated claims here now, plus unattributed quotes or opinions and the invoking of nonexistent statistics. Those which stood out for me I marked with tags, but some editor who's competent with the topic will have to rewrite those passages in a more appropriate tone (and possibly with a more appropriate content). Rafu (talk) 04:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Breakaway Catholic Churches
What is an Independent Catholic Church?. A few comments about the introduction
After reading the article I went into some doubt about what qualifies as such. My first reading seemed to be just a hodgepoge of self styled "catholic" minoritary denominations. Not until I persued some of the web references could i get a clear understanding of what the article is about (it is described in the introduction but I didn't get it at first, to much noise to info ratio).
According to this an ICC is a "community faith which has an episcopal order for which it claims is in Apostolic Succession and to have valid sacraments (esp. Eucharist)" but are not in communion with any of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches, or the Oriental Churches".
Readers will note that i have taken out two denominations from the not in communion clause. The Old Catholics and the Anglican Communion. The first because they fit perfectly into the definition of independent; without treating them, a good deal of the phenomenon is almost uninteligible -the article starts with them- and in more than one sense is the paradigmatic case. The Anglicans, at least the anglocatholics, claim to be catholic in the above definition, but are nowadays not acknowleged as such by none of the "Old Three". In this sense -and but for its volume- she is just another Independent "Church"
You will also note that the definition matches almost "verbatim" the requisites of Dominus Iesus for calling a christian denomination a Church, according to Rome. The Catholic Church happens to be the only one which has developed a certain juridical system on testing the "Apostolic Succession" (more on a case law style, but anyhow), which seems to have been more or less silently accepted as a "standard" (on a side note, i do am a RC, so i'm bound to it, anyway; and yes i know a number of Orthodox theologians would even deny validity to RC orders, ...)
There is a wild diversity of ICC, but with the exception of the anglican "chaos", most seem not to claim inheritance from the Reformation. I'd say it could also a common characteristic, but i'll leave it for someone more expert in "denominational taxonomy"
- Your second sentence starts... "According to this...". According to what specifically? Where is that definition? Is it something you've come up with as a result of your many searches? I'm not trying to be combative, I'd genuinely like to know as yours is the first attempt in a long time to actually try to fix this article.
- I too searched and after going through many of the sites listed in the External Links section of the article, it appears the commonly accepted definition of Independent Catholic is any catholic entity which is not in communion with the Holy See (i.e. The Bishop of Rome, or what is commonly referred to as the "Pope" in the Roman Catholic Church.) But that is also my own take on what they are trying to convey though I did word that somewhat from "Dominus Iesus" since that document uses the term communion to describe churches who have broken away from, but still celebrate with the Roman Catholic Church.
Is St. Stanislaus Kostka Church (St. Louis, Missouri) an Independent Catholic Church?--WlaKom (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
A quick test on legitimate Apostolic Succession
Something of this kind should be in the article. The lines below are offered just as a "template" for someone interested into "fleshing" it for the article. Although I believe catholics and easterns would agree, this reflects mainly a RC approach. I'll try to get detailed references for each case, but for now i'm a little short of time:
Assuming the ordination is valid (i.e. is both formally correct, the intention was present, and free of simony; more below) more or less the probability would be in this order (higher first):
- The movement was started by one or more legitimate bishops of one of the "Big Three"
- The creator of the line of succession was ordinated by one legitimate bishop of one of the "Big Three"
- The creator of the line of succession was ordinated by one "legitimate" bishop of an independent Church of the first two kinds
- The creator of the line of succession was ordinated by one bishop of the former kinds, but of a very diferent rite
- The creator of the line of succession was ordinated by one bishop whose ordination is already suspect
- No one knows who initiated the line of succession
Some samples for each case
- The Chinese Patriotic Church and the SSPX orders are recognized, but neither the anglicans, nor Milingo's recent group
- The original Church of Utrecht orders are/were recognized, probably some sedevacantist could be, but none performed by bishop Thuc (f.i. the Palmarian Church)
- The Polish National Catholic Church is recognized thru Utrecht, but the same succession in the Anglican Communion is considered suspect.
- (... sample pending ...) As a general norm, both lack of intention and simony are suspected
- Most churchs created by episcopi vagantes aren't even recognized outside themselves
Short explanation of the exceptions. Milingo's ordinations are rejected for lack of intent (it's very doubtful that he still believes in the Episcopal Order, and there is some suspicion about his mental health In the case of bishop Pierre_Martin_Ngô_Đình_Thục's the last cause is the most commonly refered (but not solely) For the Anglican Communion please see Apostolic_Succession#Roman_Catholic_judgments
Note: Neither the SSPX, nor Rome formally consider (as of 2009) their relation as "schismatic" but merely as "canonicaly irregular". If the evolution would result in a total breakup, then orders had to be mutually recognizable --Wllacer (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- I personally feel that only applies to those who actually voice a concern regarding "legitimate succession". Since there are many groups in the independent movement that do not really care one way or the other, or have aligned themselves with the "orthodox" or "Old Catholics" or other denominations and therefore fall under their umbrellas, I don't think it would be useful to this article.
- I do like the line above that states, "Most church[es] created by episcopi vagantes aren't
evenrecognized outside themselves." I think that line should even enter the article somewhere, though I'd like to see the source for that as I have several sources against that statement; Apostolicae Curae, "The Old Catholic Church has received valid Episcopal consecration." by Algemissen, Konrad in Christian Denominations, Dr. Ludwig Ott,(1952), Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. p. 456. which states: "Every validly consecrated bishop, including heretical, schismatic, simonistic, or excommunicated bishops, can validly dispense the Sacrament of Order, provided that he has the requisite intention, and follows the essential external rite (set. Certa). Cf. D 855, 860; CIC 2372." and several others.
- I do like the line above that states, "Most church[es] created by episcopi vagantes aren't
- All of these are common documents, but my understanding is there are new documents which even reverse what His Holiness the Pope stated before he was elected to be the Bishop of Rome. "Dominus Iesus," was issued during the reign of Pope John Paul II, June 16, 2000, and signed by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 2000. Refer to Section IV: Article 17 which states in part: "Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in the communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches..."
Kjnelan, I would suggest leaving the proposed test out, and just present the claims of this group of Churches. For that matter, implying that these Churches are not recognized outside themselves shows bias on the part of the writer. Each other individual Church concerned by the existence of this group of Churches and its claims are the ones to challenge the validity of their claims themselves for their own people as well as for the general public in their own official statements. An informational article in an Encyclopedia should simply present the claims, doctrines and so forth of this group of Churches as they describe themselves; or simply note that their claims and doctrines are and have been controversial and leave it at that. Those who have questions about the Independent Catholic Churches may contact their own Church (or any other Church) for its opinions about them. Gladfelteri (talk) 18:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
One comment on the second page of following website maintained by ecumenism.net: (Independent episcopal churches) which has bearing on this discussion follows. "As a website, we struggle with two ecumenical principles: Each community should be allowed to describe themselves to others according to its own self-understanding, and it is not our function to express judgement upon the legitimacy of any of the communities listed on our site, not upon the self-description offered by these communities." The website continues with this statement which is at the heart of this and arguably any discussion of this family of Churches: "Our struggle occurs because many churches describe themselves in a manner that challenges the self-understanding of other churches."
That last sentence, in my humble opinion, makes these Churches by their very nature - by their very existence, controversial and to many committed members of other Churches, inherently upsetting to at least some degree whether they are aware of it or not, no matter how objective and impartial they may otherwise be. So perhaps it is best to simply avoid any evaluation of the validity of these Churches and their apostolic successions in the text of the article, and let various other Churches do that themselves on their own internet sites and in their other publications. Gladfelteri (talk) 08:10, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
- (Sorry about the delay). My proposal was not intended to open up a debate about the merits of the Apostolic Succession of any of the churches, but rather as a "walking guide" for outsiders thru the maze. When I came around the phenomenon of the ICC. I needed a framework for classification in order to understand it. I tried the "Mother Church" method, but it didn't work beyond the first generation, and not always. I tried the "theological family", but was even worse. Only as I tried an (blatantly confessional) approach based on the above schema (aided with the two other approaches) I could get some overview. Just (if you allow me) take Gladfelteri's Community. It's styled as Lutheran, as came out of the Missouri Synod. but it's theology looks squarely RC. Apostolic Succession is claimed via primarily the Duarte-Costa line (if i have understood it correctly), so -pending further research- this Community comes into my second or third group , so I can pin it down in a mental map.BTW I hope not to need this knowledge anymore in the shortest time possible ;-)
- I accept that perhaps a so obviously laden approach as mine, might not be workable for Wikipedia, but I think there is a need for outsiders to get some schema based on claimed primary Succession, but not simply a division by such-and-such line (too many to be practical)
- [[User:Kjnelan|Kjnelan]: I got the impression of just the opposite, that for this churches the Apostolic Succession claim is paramount, unless it becomes only a container for not mainstream churches with episcopal constitution. This is the reason why i tried to group them in degrees of probability. This is one of the problems of the article; not being an organized movement there must be some limits of what comes in.
- And being absolutely personal and a bit blunt. When somebody claims a hitherto unknown line (i.e no Utrecht, no Duarte, no Thuc, no Mathews, no Vilatte...) or an "esotheric" line, i.e. going further down my list, it raises more than simple eyebrows on me. WP has to strive for objectivity, which IMHO isn't exactly the same as gullibility.--Wllacer (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Please put your comments separated from those of the other users, and sign them. I don't mind being formatted for the sake of discussion but not "edited". You made it in a way it looks as I had written it, which is NOT the case. As I presume you're a newcomer I simple move your comments and my counter arguments down here.
Following are Patrickinmpls comments (in italics), and my reply
The movement was started by one or more legitimate bishops of one of the "Big Three" (please enumerate, Lefebvre, and who else?)
- I left it open because history gives you some surprises. Think of formal schisms of local churches -or at least an organized body- where the legitimate bishop is the head. From the top of my head, and for the sake of this article, undubitably the original Utrecht Church and the Costa-Duarte line (Brasilian National Church) . Lefebre's, Castro-Meier's and the Chinese Patriotic are distinct in the sense their groups wouldn't consider themselves an Independent Church; moreover Castro's successor is already in full communion with Rome, and many chinese "official" bishops mantain some kind of (not too underground) links with Rome.
- If Milingo were to openly head a schismatic group then he would qualify here for this group (as sometimes appear). But noone can be sure about him.
- Thuc ordained irregular bishops, but never headed a schismatic body (in the second group then). Nor Mathews or Vilatte line woul qualify here, because they were NOT regular members of the church which consecrated them bishops
Milingo's ordinations are rejected for lack of intent (it's very doubtful that he still believes in the Episcopal Order, and there is some suspicion about his mental health - also many would reject the consecration because it happened in 1969 after the new rite of episcopal consecration was introduced by Paul VI) In the case of bishop Pierre_Martin_Ngô_Đình_Thục's the last cause is the most commonly refered (but not solely)
- Milingo was the first -or at least in the first batch- bishop ordained with the new Pontifical, but this has absolutely no bearing on Rome's view of his ordinations. If you were a staunch "sedevacantist" maybe, but only to the extent that you wouldn't consider ANY consacration with the new Pontifical as valid
If I could just interject here a second - re Arnold Harris Mathew, he was most definitely a "regular" member of the Urecht Union until his Declaration of Independence in 1910, and there exist opposing positions even within the Utrecht Union as to the validity of his Succession, most of the derogatory positions being polemical - certainly some Bishops/Clergy of his Succession have been reconciled with Utrecht since and positive dialogue has existed between some "independent" Old Catholic churches and Utrecht. "Canonically" speaking, one must accuse Mathew of being a formal "schismatic" from Utrecht, for he was most definitely a recognised member of that Church's hierarchy before his cessation with it. The Mathew's Succession has even been accepted or pronounced upon as "valid" even by Roman Catholic investigators. If it weren't for the distinct negative bias of this article I would offer citations, but frankly, noting that despite some excellent observations and suggestions here, no changes have been effected, I hardly see the point. Periti (talk) 19:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd love to have some more info about A.H. Mathew. My knowledge is at best sketchy, but IIRC, Mathew was at the time of his ordination married, while then valid canons in Utrech demanded celibacy at least for bishops. There were also complains about intention after 1910 (but who knows !) So your statement comes as a bit of a surprise to me (i'm not aware of bishops/priests of the Mathew lines being recived with at most conditional ordination in the Church. Ops, sorry, in the RC Church ;-)
- OTOH even acknowledging Mathew and Villate's ordinations as valid, before them they were NOT members of the Church which ordained them. In Mathew case IIRC it was done explicitly for creating a new independent body but in communion with Utrecht. Maybe we both are right and is part of a "grey area"
- For the time being i'm still following a policy of not editing articles, but I still hope someone can pick up the suggestions in this talk page and rewrite this article
There is value in having links to the various Independent Catholic Church, not as an advertising repository of links, but so those interested may read for themselves how these Churches describe themselves; but perhaps better would be just one link - to the following website maintained by ecumenism.net: (Independent episcopal churches). This website first divides these churches into the following catetories: Byzantine, Old Catholic, Tridentine or Traditionalist, Reformed Catholic, Independent Anglican, and Celtic, gives a very short but accurate description of each category, then goes on to what is arguably among the most complete, if not the most complete, listing of the Independent Catholic Churches (and other "Independent episcopally-ordered Churches") on the internet. Since this cited website seems to be highly objective and ecumenical, perhaps a link to this one website could replace all the others in this section. Gladfelteri (talk) 08:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
- WP is not a link index. External links section should point to such indexes or information relevant to the article. I will try to compile such links and replace that section with them. Metagignosko (talk) 06:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Faith and Practice
I removed the sentence which stated: "In the mind of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic and Utrecht churches such beliefs as theosophy and reincarnation would render invalid any ordinations regardless of the rite employed in the ceremony."
I've searched through many RCC documents regarding this statement and while it is incongruent with RCC teaching, there is nothing which states the belief in such would render the ordination of anyone invalid. It is considered as improper teaching as evidenced by: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html, but again, nothing has been found to support the sentence.
That sentence was also POV which adds to the other discussions above. We need to remember this is an article ABOUT the Independent Catholic Movement, not a chance to condemn, ridicule, or denigrate. Kjnelan (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- AFAIK, there are several aspects in this question, from a Catholic point of view. Hereticals DO confer valid orders (this is a consensual view since Augustinus in the West) as long it is done according to the "rules" and with the proper intention (cf. Apostolicae Curae,nr 33 passim). An open question is, though, if doctrinal drift (esp. regarding Order) does openly negates "proper intention". A case in point -more mainstream- would be the discussion around "Old Catholic" orders after its recent development.
- In the East, the augustinian view never has been fully acknowledged, so it is not uncommon to see opinions negating the validity of even "simply schismatic" orders--Wllacer (talk) 10:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
I just checked wikipedia for information about the American National Catholic Church (http://americannationalcatholicchurch.org/), but wikipedia redirected me to "The Catholic Church in the United States"
This seems to be incorrect - The ANCC is (to quote from its website) a "Catholic community outside the institutional church...guided by its own bishop". As I said earlier, I was just browsing for information, and I don't feel qualified to provide information on the ANCC myself. I hope someone more knowledgeable will see this and correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for drawing attention to this error. The organization is question appears to be yet another of the many "independent Catholic Churches" in the United States established by episcopi vagantes. Esoglou (talk) 19:05, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
European-American University - Education beyond boundaries
We're including references to degree mills now? The so-called European-American University is well-known among legitimate and accredited academia, and among anti-degree/diploma-mill activists, as a mill. No question about it. How is it, then, that any Wikipedia article can, with a straight face, link to it? Plus, the specific thing to which that reference linked is gone, now, in any case... so it's basically a dead link (though if someone would first figure out that to which it was linking, and then search for it on the European-American University (and I use the word "university" loosely, in this case) website, who knows... said someone might be able to figure out what should be the new and corrected link. However, we shouldn't, in my opinion, allow reference links to degree mills, regardless...