Talk:Indian Rebellion of 1857

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Contents 1 Civilians 2 Causes of rebellion 3 It wasn't slavery? 4 Casualty count 5 proposed merge

[edit] Civilians

Did any Europeans civilians aid the mutineers?[[Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)]]

Yes, mostly converts to Islam. See Dalrymple, The Last Mughal p153 Rsloch (talk) 12:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you will find they were Eurasian, NOT European. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.246.215 (talk) 17:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Dalrymple just describes them as converts to Islam but the sources he refs say they were some Europeans. Papers at the time (eg Ulsterman, 21 September 1857) also reported Europeans fighting on the mutineers side but you have to treat them with a plateful of salt.

Rsloch (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If a soource says X then X it is.Slatersteven (talk) 15:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Which is not the issue. The question is are these converts that Dalrymple mentions European or Eurasian something he doesn't state. He does though provide refs which make it clear they were European.

Rsloch (talk) 08:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually they were Eurasian musicians mostly from the Native Infantry Regiments - see "Our Bones Are Scattered". Those Europeans that converted to Islam were captive women who took no part int he fighting. Sadly, I think this is another case of someone watching too much "Mangal Pandey: The Rising" and taking it as fact. When natives saw white skin they didn't wait to ask if they were converts. Men were put to death usually on the spot, or taken away and executed later.

\;lets have what the source says, converts to Islam.Slatersteven (talk) 18:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Causes of rebellion

Where did the first two sentences of this section come from? Nothing I have ever read justifies introducing this section with comments about the Ulema.Vontrotta (talk) 16:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

all the controversy and contentions are cleared now, the English were outsider for India and Indians and fighting for drive out them(English)will not NOW so called- rebellion or mutiny. the english were doesn't keep passions they hangs anyone earlier than earliest, without any or less mistakes with cruelty. some invader enters your home and will you shut your mouth and put your hand together and sit, is it possible ? it was the bad result of dirty thinking of english that they are made for ruling the world. one side you are writing that Wikipedia has neutral policy other side you are writing "honorable east India co." and "Sepoy mutiny",plz refer the link below http://www.1857.in/timeline.html "Indian rebellion 1857" no one has right to insult or demoralize to Indians. Please change the title "Indian rebellion 1857" as "first Indian independence war-1857" or "Indian Revolution 1857" --Prakash gothwal (talk) 07:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Except that outside the subcontinent it is not called that. Even in India some question that name (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_War_of_Indian_Independence_(term)). It was a rebelion, on that we can all agree, but not everyone calls it a war of (or even first war of) independacne. So lets stick to the NPOV title.Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Prakash, Steven is right. Even though most in India call is the "War of Independence" - it is prudent to keep the name neutral - there is no consensus on the term. TheBlueKnight (talk) 06:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed neutrality is important, but calling it a Rebellion/mutiny is far from neutral. And obviously it's not agreed to by everyone. Perhaps 'Uprising' is the middle of the way, (this is what it is referred to in Chinese and Korean). Bedbug1122 (talk) 23:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Was on a train recently - when it stopped at Meerut - the announcer stated it was the cradle of "India's First War of Independence". This was in English, followed by Hindi where it was called "Bharat ka Pahela Swantantra Sangram". Can we check on Wikipedia itself what is the most commonly searched term? I have a feeling it indeed is "First War of Independence" or a variant. TheBlueKnight (talk) 21:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] It wasn't slavery?

Do you mean that this was never called slavery, the British enslaving the people of India? Stars4change (talk) 23:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It was NOT slavery in the traditional sense of the word. There were over 400 princely states which were "free". Also the British Govt. was one of the first European powers to ban slavery - but this did not stop it from promoting indentured labor - result being you see Indians in Sri Lanka, Guyana, Suriname, Fiji etc. TheBlueKnight (talk) 10:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Casualty count

Does anyone have resources to make a casualty count (civilian and military) for both sides? This would be useful information to have in the info box I think. It will help to put into context the extent of the war to readers. Bedbug1122 (talk) 23:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] proposed merge

It has been proposed that the page India's First War of Independence (term) be merged into this page. I'm fairly agnostic on the issue. However, I can provide some background on why the page was set up in the first place. It was in response to some fairly extreme POV editing that resulted in at least one indefinite ban being handed out. The page was created as an attempt to explain the use of the term by Indian politicians and the controversy surrounding the naming of this event in general. Creating the page seemed to go some way towards resolving the contention. The naming topic has been stable for a couple of years now. FWIW, my preference would be to let sleeping dogs lie. Ronnotel (talk) 20:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Who has made the proposal? I agree - let sleeping dogs lie. TheBlueKnight (talk) 21:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

This seems like a back door name change to me (its not about merging with the term page but with the "First War of Indian Independence" re-direct page. As such I oppose it (I also agree that we should not kick the poor dog and let it sleep).Slatersteven (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Think enough time has passed on this proposal. I am removing the tag. Feel free to revert if I am jumping the gun. Ronnotel (talk) 16:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

As no one has stuck their head over the parapit and said "hey great idea thats just what we need" I should say yep time to remove it.Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)