Talk:Industrial metal

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Good article Industrial metal has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
February 23, 2009 Good article nominee Listed
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Nu metal[edit]

I'm pretty sure that nu metal has been significantly influenced by industrial metal, especially by Nine Inch Nails. Any chance that we might have some time to add a new section before January 13nth? Musicaindustrial (talk) 14:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we can add information reflecting that, and if you want to push back the deadline that's cool with me. I don't happen to have any sources lying around on nu metal, is the thing. If you do, go for it. Aryder779 (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
If we produce such a section, we should definitely make note of Godflesh's influence on Slipknot. Aryder779 (talk) 23:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. Let's do the following: we could send the article right now for evaluation, because a new section would take ages to complete. After the whole "good article" process we can add some extra stuff, so we can make it a feature article (I certainly hope so!). Musicaindustrial (talk) 18:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
"I'm pretty sure that nu metal has been significantly influenced by industrial metal." You may be right, unfortunately you are not a reliable source though. Before you add something saying nu metal has been significantly influenced by industrial metal you will need some reliable sources definitively saying just that. Landon1980 (talk) 03:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, I've contributed with half of this article's references and personally own all of the articles and books on the "Further reading" section; so, I'm confident that I can find the appropriate sources for this task. Considering that fact, your point seems perhaps... unecessary? Musicaindustrial (talk) 15:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the last paragraph of the "extreme industrial metal" section should be reworked into a nu metal crossover section, but don't want to start on that right now since we're a hairsbreadth away from GA. Aryder779 (talk) 16:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm in the process of integrating the "legacy" section into the timeline. I've put a mention of nu metal at the end of the "commercial rise" section. It seems to me that if nu metal is greatly influenced by industrial metal -- which I agree that it is -- it should probably be noted on the nu metal page, more than here. Aryder779 (talk) 23:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Allmusic once called industrial metal "the heavy metal of the 1990s." I while don't fully agree with that assessment, it is interesting to note that in various ways industrial metal was a forerunner to nu metal. Like the then-called "Funk O' Metal" (Faith No More, Jane's Addiction, the Red Hot Chili Peppers), industrial metal certainly freed metal to experiment with other music forms - in "i-metal"'s case, from industrial music (of course) and electronica to hip-hop.
But, at their core, industrial metal and nu metal seem to be very different. Industrial metal, in terms of attitude and music, has always been closer to punk and alternative rock - the intent to be musically experimental, the ironic humor, the occasional social commentary. In the other hand, nu metal is/was rarely political, and by adopting rap's braggard, mysogenist persona and marrying it with big, loud riffs, it had a populist appeal that industrial metal never quite achieved. No wonder Marilyn Manson called it "jock rock".
Ok, I'm disgressing. What I suggest is to show how nu metal had already taken, in the late 1990s, industrial metal's place as the most popular "new" form of metal. If we could find the proper sources to prove that rationale, it could be an interesting addition to the article. Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:NIN - Closer.ogg[edit]

The image File:NIN - Closer.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --05:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

This file has been deleted, and also from industrial music, where it was originally posted. Aryder779 (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Possible additions to the "Controversy" section[edit]

Musicaindustrial (talk) 16:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's good stuff, especially the Alec Empire/Rammstein disagreement. Aryder779 (talk) 16:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Good article status[edit]

I've just filled out the refs, except for the statement about Mike Scaccia. This allmusic bio [4] partly does the trick, but doesn't support the information about Scaccia being surprised by the offer. If necessary, that clause can be deleted. Aryder779 (talk) 16:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure I've read this somewhere on one of my old Alternative Press (or was it B-Side?) magazines. But if I can't find this source in time, go ahead and delete that part of the phrase... It's the right thing to do! Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:24, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Is all the necessary editing done? I could give a heads-up to Daniel Case, so we could wrap up the review process. Musicaindustrial (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it's all been taken care of. Aryder779 (talk) 15:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Further reading[edit]

I just added Marilyn Manson's book to the "further reading" section, but then noted that Chris Connelly's book had just been deleted on the grounds that it's not mentioned in the article. Does it matter if all the books mentioned in "further reading" are cited? Connelly doesn't really provide a lot in terms of concrete facts, but he conveys a lot about the milieu behind Chicago industrial metal, so it's worth mentioning in order to provide color. Manson's book has a similar value. Aryder779 (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, personally I think adding that is fine, but the obvious way round it is to somehow incorporate it into the article... Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
After thinking about it, I guess Musicaindustrial is right that not every conceivable source is worth including in the article, particularly because it's so long already. The fact that I can't think of a sensible way to include information from either Connelly's or Manson's books indicate that maybe they're not that relevant. It would be like if I started listing albums by various industrial metal figures, just to provide examples, without integrating them into the text. Aryder779 (talk) 21:08, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Guys, I have nothing against Connelly's book at all! I'd really like to use it as a source... the problem is: do you guys know somebody who actually owns a physical (or a virtual) copy of this book, so it could use it for the article? If we mention it in the "Further reading" section without citing it along the text, it leaves a bit of a loose end... but that's my opinion, and I could be wrong.
And about Manson's book: I think it is relevant too, as long we cite it somehow along the text. Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:19, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I own Connelly's book. It's very entertaining, but not terrifically informative in an encyclopedic way. Maybe if I re-read it I'll see if it has any anecdotes that are worth quoting here. Pretty much the whole thing is Connelly reminiscing about being out of his mind on drugs and Jourgensen acting crazy and various tour shenanigans. I recommend it highly for entertainment value.
I read Manson's book more than once when I was in high school, but sold it long ago. Again, not sure what it provides from an encyclopedic perspective, though of course Manson does mention some influences. Aryder779 (talk) 23:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

In Regards to "Industrial Black Metal"[edit]

I find it completely disrespectful that the 'industrial black metal' headline was gotten rid of. It is understandable that a more collective 'extreme industrial metal' headline was put in, but the fact of the matter is that there was no mention in there of 'industrial black metal' in any form. Jotsko (talk) 05:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

What are your suggestions? Musicaindustrial (talk) 02:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Industrial black metal is now covered at European industrial metal, and mentioned briefly in that section of this page. No disrespect is intended at all; I really like industrial black metal. There are length concerns as industrial metal is a pretty big field, so it can be difficult to organize these things. Hope you understand. The "extreme industrial metal" section covers an earlier period and perhaps will eventually be retitled "industrial death metal." - Aryder779. 67.191.153.112 (talk) 15:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

White Zombie and Marilyn Manson[edit]

These two artists need to be introduced in either the "early innovators" or "commercial rise" sections. As it is, they suddenly turn up in the "film and video" section, before they've been introduced as famous and popular industrial metal groups. I will probably do this myself in the near future. Aryder779 (talk) 22:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I've got some mid to late 1990s White Zombie/Rob Zombie magazine articles that could be put to good use. Musicaindustrial (talk) 07:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Crossover with other genres[edit]

I'm beginning to realize that this section could potentially go on forever, and is kind of inconsequential. Musicians who have collaborated with or name-checked industrial metal acts include David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Alice Cooper, Rob Halford, Adrian Belew, R.E.M., Slash, Shelter, Tori Amos, Eminem, DMX, Josh Wink, Aphex Twin, Autechre, Fiona Apple, Timbaland, Aaliyah (apparently), Gibby Haynes, GWAR, Cirque du Soleil, Richard Cheese, Weird Al Yankovic, etc. etc.
It's kind of interesting in itself that industrial metal's popularity became so widespread, but I think the section will eventually have to be spun off into its own page, or, conceivably, deleted, as it has a kind of "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" quality.
Of course, I wrote much of this section, and take responsibility for its somewhat trivial nature. Aryder779 (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Certainly delete any and all references to people that have name-checked industrial acts as trivial, probably also individual collaborations. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Featured article[edit]

I've been trying to read Wikipedia documents lately to see what would be necessary to get this to featured article status. The closest comparable article to have reached this is Grunge music, near as I can tell; heavy metal music and punk rock are also both featured articles. In the past, it seemed most necessary to collect information here and gather sources; now I think it's mainly a matter of determining priorities. For example, I've been cutting out much of the "crossover" section because it seemed anecdotal and unhelpful, and expanding the "controversy" section, because that seemed more newsworthy or important to a general reader.
I welcome any suggestions or criticisms of any the things I choose to emphasize or de-emphasize here. One thing that makes this article tricky is that there aren't many recent sources on "industrial metal" as a whole, but lots of sources on Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, Rob Zombie, and Justin Broadrick, in particular. Aryder779 (talk) 15:25, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Groove metal[edit]

I've renamed the "Extreme industrial metal" section "Industrial thrash and death metal", because this seemed more specific. One question: should groove metal be addressed here as well? Pantera is currently referred to as a thrash metal band, which I'm sure many people would dispute, though Cowboys from Hell certainly seems like a thrash metal album to me. My understanding is that Pantera, Sepultura, Fear Factory, and White Zombie are all sometimes grouped together as groove metal, and all four of these bands definitely have links to industrial metal. The trouble is that groove metal doesn't seem to be a terribly well-sourced or widely used term, except as a description of Pantera's style. Aryder779 (talk) 16:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

You know, I'm a bit of a skeptic regarding the so-called "groove metal" genre. I mean, the first time I heard this term was two years ago, here in Wikipedia. Just look at the article's talk page and you'll see the sheer amount of criticism directed towards that term.
I started listening to metal in 1991, so I "was there" when Pantera were in the height of their popularity. I also "was there" when Sepultura released Chaos A.D., when Machine Head first came around and when Fear Factory released Demanufacture. And you know what? Nobody mentioned "groove metal". It was simply considered an extension of thrash which had no new genre tag applied to it. I mean, you could easily spot Pantera's influence on Sepultura's and Fear Factory's mid-1990s output, but that didn't make them belong to a whole new genre. Yes, "power groove" can be sourced - I have a 1992 Kerrang! interview which Anselmo mentions it, but "groove metal"? I think it is a recent (2000s) internet invention, and nobody has disproven me so far. Musicaindustrial (talk) 18:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm glad someone else said this. I've been listening to metal for a similar length of time, and hadn't come across the term "groove metal" prior to Wikipedia and naively assumed it was an American term I simply hadn't encountered. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 17:01, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, even if it's a post-dated term, that doesn't necessarily make it invalid. Subgenres are often determined retroactively. The real question is whether it's widely-used enough to be applied outside a very narrow coterie, and it looks like ... no. Aryder779 (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, both on the retroactive thing, and the fact that it really isn't a widespread term. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

The sources[edit]

This is a good article but I want to ask if someone could do one thing for me. I'd like to read the articles cited 15-18, but they are not very clearly defined in the reference section, I can't find them anywhere with that information. Can anyone make clearer references to these sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.144.26.146 (talk) 18:03, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Did you look at the bibliography, where the full information for each article is included? I'm sorry if you already looked there, but I don't think the citation system is confusing. Aryder779 (talk) 02:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Founder info[edit]

Regarding Killing Joke as founders of IM, RE: HBH "It's simply a classic, and it has to be said that while Ministry often gets the acclaim as industrial metal pioneers, one listen to Hosannas should convince the listener that Killing Joke deserves similar accolades (lest one think that Killing Joke is riding on Ministry's industrial metal bandwagon, it's really the other way around -- Killing Joke predates Ministry and in fact Al Jourgenson has listed Killing Joke as an influence" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.3.193 (talk) 18:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

There's no question that Killing Joke predated Ministry; I think concern revolves around whether they constitute "metal," rather than industrial rock. That, and the necessity of a reliable source. Aryder779 (talk) 02:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
a) Anonymous, to prove your point you're mentioning a Killing Joke album released in 2006 - Hosannas from the Basements of Hell (Killing Joke has been putting out records since 1979). Ministry's first industrial metal record was The Land of Rape and Honey which came out in originally 1988, so...
b) Killing Joke has traditionally been agressive and guitar-oriented, but that doesn't mean they're metal. They've always been too weird or too dance-oriented to be considered metal. Also, Geordie's guitar riffs have never resembled traditional metal (or rock) riffs. Musicaindustrial (talk) 15:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

cyber metal[edit]

cyber metal redirects to this article (from articles of bands that are listed as being "cyber metal" yet no explanation or mention of what cyber exists in this article. Care to fix this? (I'm really wondering what it is. Supposedly bands such as The Kovenant and ...And Oceans are cyber metal) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.228.83.203 (talk) 03:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The term appears to be vaguely defined. See Talk:European industrial metal#Cyber metal?. Aryder779 (talk) 19:15, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

The "Commercial rise" section[edit]

...is completely bullshit. None of these bands are Industrial metal. Neither Manson nor a shitty pop group like Orgy... Static-X is Alternative metal. And really nobody gives a flying fuck about Rammstein. They never played Industrial metal. In fact, the late 1990s mark the decline of the Industrial metal genre and the rise of Alternative metal and Nu metal.