Talk:Insular area

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Untitled[edit]

Intro paragraph copied from govt page at bottom - which is written in legalese/government-speek. It makes not a whole lot of sense in English. -Abqwildcat 23:35, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Neither does quotient rule to those unfamiliar with the language of math. Just because it's complicated and hard to understand doesn't mean it's wrong or faulty. jengod 00:21, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
I don't mean to suggest it's just beyond my ability, it's also badly written. My opinion is that it needs to be re-written in a way to make it read like an encyclopedia article. --Abqwildcat 00:55, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What exactly is it that you find badly written or difficult to understand? It seems quite clear to me. Hard for me to know how to improve it if you don't give a better indication of the problem. olderwiser 21:17, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC) Never mind--I just realized that I was looking at a version that had already been revised somewhat. olderwiser 21:23, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Definition[edit]

I am not an american, and therefore cannot understand what this article refers to.

The first statement of the article is: "An insular area of the United States is a jurisdiction that is neither a part of one of the fifty states nor a part of the District of Columbia, the nation's federal district."

Does that mean that the USA regards virtually all of the rest of the world as a so-called "insular area" ?

Um, no. Insular areas are U.S territory, but are not part of the 50 states or D.C. olderwiser 22:27, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Simply put, an Insular Area is a land that is formally part of the United States, yet remains unorganized into a federal territory (i.e. The District of Columbia) or state (i.e. Alaska). Traditionally, much of the United States did not belong to any one state, but was classified as a federal territory (much like the Northwest Territory of 1789).--TheRealZajac 23:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

the easiest way to understand the insular areas: "They are a possession (sovereignty under US) but are not part of the US ".--Royptorico 20:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge with incorporated territory?[edit]

Regarding the proposal to merge with incorporated territory, I am overall (but just slightly) opposed to the idea. The terms mean different things. Although today the concept is largely irrelevant (as the only incorporated territory is uninhabited), separate articles may be useful in historic contexts -- or (you never know) a current territory could be reclassified, and an separate article about incorporation may be quite useful.

Most of the overlap seems to be the lists on each page. I am not opposed to some merging/purging of the lists. — Eoghanacht talk 19:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think merger would be a really bad idea (other than some of the list content, perhaps) and there seems to be no consensus to merge, so I'm removing the note — OwenBlacker 00:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Taxation[edit]

It the first paragraph, it states that insular residents do not pay federal taxes. I am pretty sure that Virgin Islanders do, and perhaps those in other territories. I know Puerto Ricans don't, and perhaps Northern Mariana Islanders don't either. In any case, this sentence needs some facts checking. — Eoghanacht talk 19:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it may be more complicated. Technically, USVI residents pay taxes at the same rates (and even using the same forms) as with the IRS, but pay the taxes to the USVI tax authority. [1] Some sort of mirroring argreement. There are similar taxing authorities for American Samoa, The Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, and Puerto Rico, although the precise exemptions and filing obligations vary. It also depends whether you are considered a "bona fide" resident. I.e., a citizen from the mainland who earns income in a territory may have to file separate returns for the IRS and the island's taxing authority. Another factor is the source of the income. [2] olderwiser 01:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
The bit about "nationals" in this same section is also incorrect. Residents of all the territories are U.S. citizens except American Samoans, who are U.S. nationals. Actually, technically, all U.S. citizens from everywhere (including the US proper) are U.S. nationals, but not all nationals are citizens; the difference is that citizens can vote and run for office but nationals can't. The fact that they can't vote for Congress or for presidential electors is because their jurisdictions don't elect those officers, not because of their citizenship status or their tax status (residents of DC can tell you that there is no link between taxation and representation). I'm going to try to sort it out. --Jfruh (talk) 23:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't employers (and there or indirectly employees have to pay FICA taxes in all insular areas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.148.157 (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Why is this article not named "Insular areas of the United States"? Isn't the term "insular area" rather generic on its own? Bhumiya/Talk 04:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that statement as to the context of this article. I'm not sure about how "generic" the term is. My question is "do other countries and entities use this term?" For now, though, please see Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states for more information on this topic as it applies to the USA. • CQ 17:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
No google results for Insular Area as a possession of any country other than the U.S. Jerry lavoie 07:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone who came across a passing reference to "insular areas" on wikipedia may not realise that it is a US legal term. Adding _of_the_United_States to the URL would make it far more obvious without someone looking at the article itself. Aoeuidhtns (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

why the revert?[edit]

I noticed my latest additions to insular area were reverted as "no longer true". I'm just curious what this means. (I'm also wondering, if it's "no longer" true, might it belong lower down in the article under background/history?) Agradman talk/contribs 23:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

FYI the text was: "It is defined by the National Agricultural Research, Extension, and Teaching Policy Act of 1977 (P.L. 95-113), as amended, to include the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Republic of Palau, the Virgin Islands of the United States.

I can't speak for the editor who reverted, though I agree with the action. The legislation you mention appears to define Insular areas within the context of that legislation. That legislation has no specific bearing on the general creation, organization, or operation of the insular areas. olderwiser 00:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Interesting how many legislative cases there are "include the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Republic of Palau, the Virgin Islands of the United States.", and none in the modern era have come to light to "exclude" them.
Executive Order 13423 for where all statutory law applies relative to Environmental, Energy, and Transportation includes them. Nothing to exclude them to date after four years? TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Organized definition[edit]

There's no indication in the article of what organized means, and Organization does not mention a legal term by that name. I think it would improve clarity if someone who is familiar with the term were to provide a definition here, or replace it with a suitable synonym. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aoeuidhtns (talkcontribs) 14:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

At the Department of Interior webpage for American Samoa it explains, American Samoa is ... "unorganized" becuase Congress has not provided the territory with an organic act, which would provide for the organization of the government and its relationship to the Federal Government.
Congress has delegated the authority over American Samoa to the Secretary of the Interior, who in turn authorized the territory to draft the constitution under which it operates. American Samoans are nationals of the United States and may become naturalized U.S. citizens. --- TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Samoan U.S. citizens[edit]

The passage "The people of American Samoa are U.S. nationals, but not U.S. citizens" needs reworking. People of American Samoa are U.S. citizens by blood, and by choice at age 18, they are just not citizens by birth on the soil.

U.S. citizens in American Samoa do not lose their U.S. citizenship however that citizenship is acquired. The children of U.S. citizens are U.S. citizens in American Samoa. After a number of years, the spouse of a U.S. citizen can apply at a court house for U.S. citizenship. At age 18 anyone born in American Samoa can apply for "court house" citizenship administratively.

I propose, "The people of American Samoa are U.S. nationals by birth on the soil, and they can become U.S. citizens by birth to a U.S. citizen, marriage to a U.S. citizen, or by court house application after age 18." TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:50, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Anyone born to a U.S. citizen anywhere in the world is a U.S. citizen and foreigners can apply to be naturalized. TFD (talk) 02:24, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
But everywhere in the world is not a part of the United States as American Samoa is. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:02, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Even taking that as the case, your proposed text discusses things that aren't specific to American Samoa at all. Anyone anywhere in the world who is born to a parent with US citizenship gets citizenship by descent, anyone can marry a US citizen, and anyone can be naturalized (assuming they fulfil the requirements). Presumably it's simpler for an American Samoan to naturalize than others, but that's different from saying they're the only ones who can. CMD (talk) 03:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. That makes sense. The objective is to avoid the impression that no American Samoans are U.S. citizens, and no islander may be, as in the existing language, "The people of American Samoa are U.S. nationals, but not U.S. citizens." The measuring of those relative populations is difficult in tables where percent U.S. nationals and U.S. citizens] are lumped together in the sources immediately at hand. [[User:TheVirginiaHistorian|TheVirginiaHistorian] (talk) 10:48, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps add on a statement at the end, that "Their status as US nationals does not preclude the obtaining of US citizenship through normal means." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chipmunkdavis (talkcontribs) 13:34, 2 February 2014
Thank you, and beyond that that "normal means", there is "courthouse citizenship" where the American Samoan national simply goes to the courthouse at age 18 to secure U.S. citizenship as a simple administrative procedure, unconnected to any quotas associated with those who are not "native-born Americans", as the Census Department interprets U.S. statutes. The Interior department is uses the phrasing, "American Samoans are nationals of the United States and may become naturalized U.S. citizens." TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Well we could make it "normal means and courthouse citizenship" linking so some section if we have it somewhere, but probably don't need to say more here. CMD (talk) 13:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)