Talk:International Criminal Court

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Former good article International Criminal Court was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reassessment[edit]

International Criminal Court[edit]

Article (edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · WatchWatch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
Result: The consensus is to delist due to ongoing problems that require more significant attention than can be given in a reasonable time. There are problems regarding sourcing, with challengeable statements and large chunks that remain unsourced. The lead needs attention, it is large and sprawling. The prose in the article is choppy in places, with a feel that notes have been added to the article without thought given to flow and readability, as a result there are sections of the article that are tiring to read, and the information is not adequately conveyed. There is often too much detail, and the article would benefit from trimming back to the essential points. Article fails GA criteria 1(a), 1(b), 2(b) and 3(b). SilkTork *Tea time 10:14, 26 May 2011 (UTC)}

An IP editor who chooses not to register for privacy reasons requested this. His reasons were: 3+ years since a review, 500+ edits, high profile institution, and bare URLS. --ObsidinSoul 23:17, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I checked dabs, one found in ref#1 but I understand this is deliberate. I repaired 49 dead links and tagged a further 7 for which no archived version could be found. Checklinks added titles to bare urls, but references could do with consistent formatting, including author and publisher details. The majority of sources are from the ICC itself. there are some largely uncited sections. Images appear OK. Prose appears to be OK. Stable. Needs more detail on states which have not signed or are critical of the court. The lead does not fully summarise the article. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:51, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
The nominating editor, 01:48, 30 July 2007, User:Sideshow Bob Roberts, has not edited since 18:36, 13 September 2009[1] Jezhotwells (talk) 18:03, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I have informed the Law and Human Rights projects of this reassessment. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi all, I reached this page via the Human Rights Article Alerts page, my initial assessment (independent of the GA criteria) is that this still remains one of our best articles, with brilliant content that is probably unrivaled in any other tertiary source. On the other hand, there are very obvious areas for improvement, in particular in relation to the ongoing investigations and in progress cases and the relevant criticism thereof. Ultimately this article is probably due a reassessment and I would love to help improve any particular areas of weakness that are identified, but at the same time this is a huge and continually developing topic, and we probably do not have the manpower to keep it up to GA status in the longterm ( this pending any new involved editor comments, I would love to be wrong about this!) Ajbpearce (talk) 23:01, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Jezhotwells. And hello Ajbpearce, GA is mostly concerned with technical stuff rather than content, but you're already aware of that, heh. I was also technically not the one who nominated it for reassessment and I'm not a reviewer nor an involved editor so I can't actually pinpoint where it might fail the GA criteria. I did it as help for an IP user (I'm a helper volunteer in our IRC channel), since IP's can't nominate articles for WP:GAR themselves. Jezhotwells has pinpointed several problems though, I suggest fixing those (the uncited sections seem to be the most pressing concern at the moment). Thanks again.--ObsidinSoul 01:32, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
minor note, on the 27th feb Jezhotwells added a primary sources tag to the article. I don't really think that it was appropriate criticism / review for this article. Generally - the primary sources seemed to be used descriptively to support factual statements about, e.g the composition of the court, or the content of the articles of the rome statute - where they are the authoritative and most helpful sources for us to link to. I obviously have not gone through all of the 150 citations in detail though, so if you had specific concerns I've missed/overlooked, then could you raise them here? (and i'll obv try to deal with them) Ajbpearce (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
Some improvements have been made, but:
  • There are citations to other Wikipedia articles, e.g. #24, 25 Fixed, these were places when a blue link would have been fine
  • Outstanding dead link tags - These links all go to the website of the ICC, which is not working at the moment, when/is it is fixed these links should come back, if that site remains down permanently (unliley for a major international organisation) then this is a bigger problem though
  • Publisher details still missing form citations, inconsistent citation style - As I understand it, the GA criteria do not require that there is a "consistent" style, beyond that they are inline citations from reliable sources, which I think this article has everywhere except at Victim participation where there are two paragraphs that need citations
WP:CITEVAR is the applicable guideline. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Victim participation and reparations section has outstanding citations needed tag - Agreed, see above, will try and work on this
  • The Duplication Detector and Earwig indicate a number of likely copywrite violations. If sections of the establishing statutes are used, they need to be rendered as quotations - Any non-trivial section of the statue appears to be rendered as quotations already as far as I can tell, in regards to the reports generated by earwig, they are all almost certainly examples of people C&P a sentence or two from the wikipedia article, or just coincidence when discussing a related topic
Jezhotwells (talk) 15:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
The Territorial jurisdiction section has a lrge section which should be in quotes.
Also Office of the Prosecutor
All of these lengthy quotes should be rendered in blockquotes to make them stand out better.
There are still a lot of stray sentences.
Delist: There has been editing activity, but none seem to address the points that have been raised. There appear to be many books, news articles and journals which cover the establishment and activities of the court which could be used. Long outstanding dead links, weasel words, and references needed tags. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:47, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Updated with response to 3 of the 4 specific issues you raised, if you could say where weasel words are used, I could fix those, i did not notice them on a read-through Ajbpearce (talk) 18:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
The court's creation perhaps constitutes the most significant reform of international law since 1945 "perhaps"
45 United Nations member states have neither signed nor ratified the Rome Statute; some of them, including China and India, are considered by some[who?] to be critical to the success of the court. twice, in lead and artcile. The lead sentence is identical to that in the body, which is not right, the lead should be summary style.
Some commentators have argued that the Rome Statute defines crimes too broadly or too vaguely.
Some argue that the protections offered by the ICC are insufficient.
Taking into account the experience of the ICTY (which worked with the principle of the primacy, instead of complementarity) in relation to co-operation, some scholars have expressed their pessimism as to the possibility of ICC to obtain co-operation of non-party states.
It is sometimes argued that amnesties are necessary to allow the peaceful transfer of power from abusive regimes
For example, the outstanding arrest warrants for four leaders of the Lord's Resistance Army are regarded by some as an obstacle to ending the insurgency in Uganda
The fact that so far the International Criminal Court has only investigated African countries and only indicted Africans is creating resentment in some African countries, even in countries which are state parties to the Court.
All of these instances of "some" or "sometimes" need in-text attribution. The issue of the majority of sources being primary, when there are many available books, journal articles and news items which could be used has not been addressed. The strcuture of the article is not good. There are a number of short sections. Full quotes from statutes are not always needed, summary style is more applicable. This is an artcile for the general reader. The footnotes and external links can provide the detail. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
  • Delist. This can't stay in rehabilitation forever, its had long enough to improve but isn't there. Szzuk (talk) 07:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Well, I fixed the easy issues raised, and I am not sure all of the complaints made against the article are valid, but its clear it has issues that its become clear I have neither the time or interest to solve, so.... Ajbpearce (talk) 20:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Agree. There have been improvements but it needs someone to spend a few hours on it. It would be quite a lot of effort, and in my opinion that would be unrewarding. As it's had 10 weeks here I think it's fair to conclude other potentially interested editors have the same opinion as us. It's time to close this one. Szzuk (talk) 14:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:DEADREF before dealing with the dead link tags; it was substantially revised earlier this year. Dead links are not actually prohibited by the GA criteria. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:57, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

ICC Relationship with NGOs[edit]

Hi there! My name is Mirelis Gonzalez and I'm a senior at Syracuse University studying International Relations. As part of the Wikimedia Foundation's Public Policy initiative, I plan on including a portion on NGO involvement with the ICC to this article. I've also been editing the entry on the United States and the International Criminal Court, and it'd be great if I could have the support of the Wikipedia community, especially those that have been working with both of the mentioned entries. I look forward to editing and working alongside everyone!

Muammar Gaddafi is Dead[edit]

CNN has reported that the ICC has accepted this claim and allowed the NTC to bury him. It's reported here:http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/20/world/africa/libya-war/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoetheMoe25 (talkcontribs) 01:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC) The ICC has announced that the investigation of Muammar Gaddafi is practically closed and that they are only focusing on Senussi and his son Saif. It's reported here:http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=740135&publicationSubCategoryId=200JoetheMoe25 (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Although it's accepted that he's dead, so far the Pre-Trial chamber has not ordered proceedings to be terminated. I'm sure they will do so imminently but technically he is still a fugitive. Pi (Talk to me! ) 23:59, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Criticisms of role in Africa[edit]

A number of sources point to criticism, principally within Africa, of the ICC's role in that continent. The following are examples which could be used in drawing up a well-sourced section of text: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]... etc. Real world means that I don't have time to do this myself ... sorry. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:00, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Laughable[edit]

It is absolutely hilarious how the term conservative is used to describe the Heritage Foundation but when Human Rights Watch is mentioned one sentence later, the term liberal is not used as a descriptor, as if the HRC is not a liberal organization. What a joke. And anyone claiming the HRC doesn't hew to the left is kidding himself and everyone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.141.155.6 (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Int21h (talk) 01:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree "conservative" in this context adds some bias to the text. However, please note that calling institutions "liberal" is something very restricted to the US political debate and not correct within an international discussion, as such adjective has other meanings in other political scenarios. --Jgsodre (talk) 04:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

sentences[edit]

What is the sentences guilty parties recieve? and has anyone been sentenced? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 18:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

First verdict today 14 March 2012 - a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. The court cannot impose the death penalty. (BBC) EdwardLane (talk) 10:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

ICC "checks and balances" evidence is weird[edit]

In the "criticism" section, this article talks about insufficient checks and balances. That's fine, but then it mentions Henry A. Kissinger's article, “The Pitfalls of Universal Jurisdiction." I was curious, so I looked up this article. It's a great article, but it has nothing to do with insufficient checks and balances. In fact, the guy really likes the ICC! I don't know why someone cited him, but it ought to be removed, because it's misrepresenting his views.72.80.198.233 (talk) 18:34, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, some of the statements in defense of the court from various individuals, particularly David Schieffer, regarding checks and balances of the ICC system vs. the guarantess of the US Constitution are clearly wrong. The author of this entry is clearly trying to give the impression that the ICC protections are equal to those afforded by the United States Constitution. This is just plain wrong, as evidenced by the following quote, taken from the entry: "Five individuals are in custody; one of them has been found guilty and sentenced (with an appeal lodged), one has been ACQUITTED AND RELEASED (WITH AN APPEAL ANNOUNCED), and three are being tried" (emphasis mine). Allowing an appeal of an acquittal obviously runs afoul of the double jeopardy protections guaranteed by the US Constitution. As is currently written, the entry tries to use the words of David Schieffer to rebut the Heritage Foundation's criticisms of the ICC. Schieffer is, quite simply, incorrect and the quote I provide clearly demonstrates that fact.04:25, 10 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.138.40.147 (talk)
BTW sicne when the US Constitution is a universal reference for due process guarantees? IMHO that section need to be rewritten entirely making reference to various legal systems (including inter alia the rights granted by the ECHR, or the Canadian Constitution, or the check and balances that have been in place in other international criminal court like Nuremberg, ICTY, ICTL... Lacking this international comparison, that section, being US-POV-centric, needs to be removed (and maybe put in the article that deals with the US-ICC relationship)--78.14.42.188 (talk) 08:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Per Kissinger article issue, anything that purports that Kissinger said something that he did not say is subject to challenge and removal. If Kissinger's does not say they "...are so weak...", then that can (and should) be removed. But it also gives a direct quote, that Kissinger said that the "[prosecutor] has virtually unlimited discretion in practice", and if that is a direct quote then that should stay. Since you have read the article and there is no online version, I think the only person who could revert you is someone else who has read it, which probably aren't many. So have at it.
Per the David Schieffer issue, yes, David Schieffer seems to be asserting that the ICC protections are equal to those afforded by the United States Constitution. Unfortunately for you, the fact that this is "just plain wrong" would still not be enough to remove this material. It has to do with viewpoints, the only way for WP to remain neutral on the issue to give voice to all opposing views, not pick and choose which one is "right". Its great you've come to your own conclusion about what's right and wrong, but that's what blogs are for. This court was brought to you by the same people that brought you Nazi Germany and Vichy France, so obviously right and wrong is viewpoint-based. But again, that's not enough to remove material.
Per the US-centrism issue, no. It is a section concerning criticisms regarding incompatibilities, not a section concerning compatibilities. Saying something is compatible is not a criticism. I have not come across a source that claims the ICC process is in contradiction with any other country's legal processes. I wouldn't see why it would. The US Constitution, as well as various state constitutions, share the trait of limiting the authority of the legislature (California goes crazy with it), but this is uncommon in Europe as I understand it. The UK has been the most successful when it comes to limiting the executive, but as I understand it Parliament could have initiated the Holocaust by law (and could still) and there would be nothing anyone could legally do about it. I hear Germany has an "eternity clause", but I am not sure why they didn't just simplify the clause to say "you can't do anything bad mkay?" because I have never seen a more ambiguous and unenforceable legal clause in my life. But hey you gotta start somewhere I guess. But I digress: it is assumed the ICC procedures are compatible with all these other legal systems, so there is nothing to change. Int21h (talk) 02:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC) Int21h (talk) 02:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Hahahaha, the comments directly above these are, for lack of a better word, ludicrous. I love how the author places the term "right" in quotation marks in regards to whether David Schieffer is correct or not. It is a fact that the Sixth Amendment bars the appeal of an acquittal, thus Schieffer's statements are OBJECTIVELY wrong; they aren't just "wrong". Including demonstrably false bullshit in order to maintain "balance" is not something that a so-called encyclopedia (please, don't make me laugh)should be doing. I won't discuss the rest of the comment as it is essentially one long non sequitur.74.138.45.132 (talk) 04:42, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

limitations[edit]

"Limitations" section has NO CITATION. It really needs one.72.80.198.233 (talk) 18:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Active Investigation Republic of Korea (South Korea)[edit]

I believe this is incorrect and should read People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) as being the country the complaint is being made against. The basis for the complaint from what I read on the ICC website is 1) the bombing of Yeongpyeong Island and 2) the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan. While I am not an active editor anymore on Wikipedia, I hope someone that is familiar with this article will correct this. Thanks Davidpdx (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Lead too long and fails to summarize issues with targeting Africa[edit]

This lead is a beast, And for no good reason. Most of this content does not belong here. And the issue of them targeting Africa seems to have been skipped and footnoted. Well that should be reflected in the lede in a summed up fashion. The lede needs a serious haircut. --Inayity (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

(all of this can move)The Court's Pre-Trial Chambers have publicly indicted 30 people, proceedings against 23 of whom are ongoing. The ICC has issued arrest warrants for 21 individuals and summonses to nine others. Five individuals are in custody; one of them has been found guilty and sentenced (with an appeal lodged), three are being tried and one's confirmation of charges hearing has yet to begin. One individual has been acquitted and released (with an appeal lodged). Nine individuals remain at large as fugitives (although one is reported to have died). Additionally, three individuals have been arrested by national authorities, but have not yet been transferred to the Court. Proceedings against seven individuals have finished following the death of two, the dismissal of charges against another four and the withdrawal of charges against one.

As of May 2013, the Court's first trial, the Lubanga trial in the situation of the DR Congo, is in the appeals phase after the accused was found guilty and sentenced to 14 years in prison and a reparations regime was established. The Katanga-Chui trial regarding the DR Congo was concluded in May 2012; Mr Ngudjolo Chui was acquitted and released. The Prosecutor has appealed the acquittal. The decision regarding Mr Katanga is pending. The Bemba trial regarding the Central African Republic is ongoing with the defence presenting its evidence. A fourth trial chamber, for the Banda-Jerbo trial in the situation of Darfur, Sudan, has been established with the trial scheduled to begin in May 2014. There are a fifth and a sixth trial scheduled to begin in July 2013 and a date to be determined respectively in the Kenya situation, namely the Kenyatta and the Ruto-Sang trials. The decision on the confirmation of charges in the Laurent Gbagbo case in the Côte d'Ivoire situation is pending after hearings took place in February 2013. The confirmation of charges hearing in the Ntaganda case in the DR Congo situation is scheduled to begin in September 2013.

The Court has four mechanisms which grant it jurisdiction:

(i) if the accused is a national of a State party to the Rome Statute (ii) if the alleged crime took place on the territory of a State Party (iii) if a situation is referred to the Court by the United Nations Security Council.[21] (iv) if a State not party to the Statute 'accepts' the Court's jurisdiction. The ICC is intended complement existing national judicial systems, and may only exercise its jurisdiction only when national courts are unwilling or unable to investigate or prosecute such crimes. The current ICC President, Sang-Hyun Song, has described the Court as a 'failsafe' justice mechanism which holds that States have the primary responsibility to investigate and prosecute Rome Statute crimes occuring within their jurisdiction. [22][23] [24](see spelling mistakes)--Inayity (talk) 21:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

To get the ball rolling and clean up what was a mess, i have moved the major non-lead material into the body. I am sure others can contribute to refining the lead. As it is still not meeting the criteria of concise. --Inayity (talk) 10:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Palestine info deleted, How to edit templates[edit]

Sorry,Int21h. You are right it was important, after doing it I came back today to add it back in. BTW how do you edit these template text used in the doc?--Inayity (talk) 06:34, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

with the sentence removed, something weird remained indeed. I understand the initial removal however, as very many lines are speant on a single non-member, which are verbatim copies of text below. Can we think of a shorter description here? L.tak (talk) 09:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
The problem is the article uses [[10]] and it cannot be edited. I have no idea how to edit the template so i copied and pasted the text from the html. By using templates it means no one can edit the references or the text.--Inayity (talk) 09:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
If you type: template:ICC member states you can edit it... L.tak (talk) 09:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks--Inayity (talk) 12:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Problem with Template in Lead[edit]

The problem with the template for 1 I did not know how to edit it, and I am pretty sure most editors will not know how to edit it. The other issue is because the template is also used in the body of the text, if i was to trim it to make it concise for the lede, it will also alter it in the body. Now the body and the lead are different because the lead is a summary, it should avoid certain details found in the body. So this is why I did not agree having Templates in the lead. --Inayity (talk) 17:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Still waiting for a reply to the template in the lede issue, no wonder it was wrecked! Asking, why should someone have to ask to edit an article? Esp when no information is given on how to edit, or issues are not addressed on the talk page? BTW had a look at 10 top articles on Wiki, none use templates in the lead!--Inayity (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Hi Inayity, I too am unable to edit or even find the section to edit in the article. Whoever set up this article has done something outside of the confines of editorial acceptability here on Wikipedia to apparently prevent people from editing the text of the article. The only determine what has happened is either with the assistance of an administrator or two or to review the article's history until one can discover how the article is being masked from editorial interjection. But I too see your difficulty as I was also unable to make the contributions that I wanted to... Stevenmitchell (talk) 04:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
U can edit it now. I post this polite notice to the person dedicated to making the template and 1 week has passed. He complained I damaged his template and said all i had to do was ask. However, no response has been made to the talk page. As an equal editor on Wikipedia I am now removing the template from the lead allowing all editors, without special knowledge to quickly and freely edit the content, this is what Wikipedia is about. The template in the lede violates this. If the template is restored I will revert it.--Inayity (talk) 08:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I concur in your judgment, Inayity. I propose we replace all instantiations of the template. Templates are not for substantive content in a small number of articles. I am sure EBB is a solid editor and means well, but it is simply not the case that templates cannot be replaced manually with good cause. It is a weak use case for a template to begin with, and using it to simply fork static content is simply improper, if only for the problem we have here. Here we have editors complain that the template content must meet the editorial format of all articles its used inline, which is in effect creating a burden whereas the template is supposed to reduce the burden of editing, thereby defeating its purpose. I have meant to replace it the first I saw it but I just did not for whatever reason, probably because I saw no need to edit it myself. But since you want to edit the content, you were rebuffed, and I did not even see the discussion because the content discussion for this page needed to be made elsewhere, I think it should be replaced. Int21h (talk) 09:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I find it a bit disturbing to be attacked here in a pretty personal manner that has nothing to do with one of the principles of Wikipedia, namely assuming good faith. The only reason for the template being there is that it was quite cumbersome to keep an overview over where articles referring to the states parties of the Rome Statute were in need of being updated at a time when the changes in the numbers of the states parties were quite frequent. I do fully accept any criticism of this having been done, but I am not ready to accept anybody insinuating sinister intentions on my side. In the case of my reversal of the change made by Inayity where he seems to have simply copied the text of the template without the references in it (which, by the way, is not really in line with Wikipedia's policy to reference its content with reliable sources), I did and said just that. I am not sure (really not!) how widespread the use of templates is in Wikipedia, but on editing the article one can see a list of templates used in the article below the editing window. I am not really sure, either, if it is so difficult to find that. Inayity, assuming good faith in your post, I assume you really misunderstood my remark about "asking". I, of course, did not mean you or anyone has to ask for permission before editing an article or a template. I meant (and I am pretty sure that is not the wrongest of views) that if one does not understand how to do something one might simply ask someone who knows it how to do it (or even better perhaps, look it up in the one of the manuals). I, at least for my part, was not born with knowledge of editing a Wikipedia template as well, and I just learned it one day. There are a couple of technical gimmicks in Wikipedia that make life easier for editors and readers alike. I have thought and I still think that having templates is one of the those helpful devices, including in this article. And with regard to not having replied instantly: One might not believe it but I am not on 24/7 watch of the article ... Int21h: There was no discussion on any edits on the template talk page as well. Regards. --EBB (talk) 12:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Minor edit after the fact. --EBB (talk) 12:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you are reading into this. What personal attack? All i said was having a template locked out other editors. So I guess misunderstanding is going both ways. And I certainly was frustrated with the template more so than the editor who put it there. --Inayity (talk) 13:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
And thanks for putting a source and qualifying that statement. in the lead--Inayity (talk) 13:48, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Unless you are referring to a discussion elsewhere, I disagree that there are any personal attacks here or any insinuations of sinister intentions. I do not equate criticism with such things. I also believe you misunderstand my argument against usage of the template: it is not that templates are being used, it is that this template is being used for substantive article content. This template is the only such template I am aware of, and I think that particular usage of a template is simply counterproductive in the instant case. Int21h (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Undue weight at Criticism/Rights of the accussed section[edit]

This section of the article focusses entirely on US criticism of the rights of the accussed. The US is just one of almost 200 states which is or could be a participant in the court, so this article should give weight to other countries and or organizations as well. Some of those might be perfectly happy with the current situation, so that should be incorporated as well. It currently seems like the US Constitution is the holy grail for fair and balanced trials and rights for the accussed. While, as an example, for a continental European as myself a trial by jury seems horrific. My suggestion is to mention a bunch of countries and organizations and then have their viewpoints directly next to them, so that it is clear that there are different viewpoints. Crispulop (talk) 11:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the point that only the US system is referenced here and that the article would be more balanced if other nation's legal systems were referred to. However, to my mind and much more fundamental is the question or test of "fit for the purpose". In other words does the system and it's processes adequately address or 'fit' the purpose of the institution? Are jury trials actually appropiate for the type of cases the ICC tries. Whilst it is generally the case that where jury trials are used the jury is the arbiter of fact judges are not entirely precluded from this area. In the UK for example judges may determine whether certain, factual, evidence may be admitted or not. In France and Scotland an inquisitional system exists where a judge conducts the preliminary stage of a criminal matter including the collection and evaluation of evidence. Essentially I would like to see some critical examination of the system used explaining it's differences and their purpose from the usual practices of various nation states. Savize (talk) 06:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Suggestions for points/info to address this criticism:
  • Correction/further clarification; actually the US constitution grants the right to confront "witnesses" rather than the "accusers"
  • Judge only trials frequently coexist in systems with jury trials for a number of reasons:
  • minor criminal offences are often dealt with by a judge; who may be legally qualified (France, Scotland,UK, USA) or a lay person who recives training and support for their work e.g. lay magistrates in the UK.
  • the difficulty of empanelling an unbiased jury where the alleged offence has attracted a great deal of negative or controversial media attention/speculation
  • the complexity of the charges e.g. serious fraud cases
  • Judge only trials exist in systems such as China, Iran, Netherlands, Russia
  • Hybryd judge & jury trials (where judges vote as jury members) also exist as in France which conducts some criminal trials with three judges and nine lay jurors
  • the existence of judge vs jury trials can be affected by whether the legal system is adversarial or inquisitorial; the former tend to jury trials while the latter tend to judge only criminal trials
n.b. this is drawn from my general knowledge and understanding. I will check and reference the points in due course. Savize (talk) 13:04, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


"Some argue that the protections offered by the ICC are insufficient. According to the Heritage Foundation "Americans who appear before the court would be denied such basic U.S. constitutional rights as trial by a jury of one's peers, protection from double jeopardy, and the right to confront one's accusers."[1]"

Proposed edit - to improve style and eliminate repetition:

Delete the sentence: "Some argue that the protections offered by the ICC are insufficient."

Rationale: the word "some" is too vague and invites the question "who" or "who exactly". It also simply rephrases the heading and is therefore an unnecessary repetition.

Proposed edit - factual correction

Remove the link set in the quotation "right to confront one's accusers" and add the sentence: "The sixth amendment to the US constitution actually provides for an accused person to have the right "to be confronted with the witnesses against him".

Rationale: whilst the quote itself may be correctly reproduced it is, in fact not accurate. There is a difference between an accuser and a witness and more importantly witnesses are not actually accusers in a criminal trial; that is the role of the prosecutor. Indeed in many criminal systems ordinary citizens do not have the right to conduct a prosecution except in exceptional circumstances. Savize (talk) 09:26, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Savize that's a semantic argument. Witness' against an individual accused of a crime are accusing them of a crime.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 08:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
As the phrase "the right to confront one's accusers" has entered into common useage perhaps the best thing to do would be to expand the point rather than simply correcting it. Thus: 'Whilst the phrase "the right to confront has entered into common usage the sixth amendment to the US constitution actually provides for an accused person to have the right "to be confronted with the witnesses against him"'. I hope this addresses your concern. Savize (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

clarify this sentence please[edit]

However, the summit did not endorse the proposal for a mass withdrawal from the ICC due to lack of support for the idea.[133] Despite these calls the ICC went ahead with calling for Ruto to attend his trial.[134] Not clear what it is trying to say (maybe it is me). --Inayity (talk) 15:59, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I've moved some sentences around so that things flow more logically. Does this clarify the issue? TDL (talk) 17:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Kenia[edit]

With this edit (and a few edits before as well), info on Kenia was added, that in my view i) was already partly presented elsewhere (selective prosecution), ii) was not written from a neutral point of view (check the adjectives etcetc), and iii) was not in line with the transcript of the World Radio Netherlands source… I have therefore removed it and suggest to discuss here -if something needs to be included- what it should be…. Please do not readd it, until there is consensus for inclusion… L.tak (talk)

On quick glance the edit is using terms like SHOCKING, so already we need to discuss its quality. --Inayity (talk) 19:10, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Reply to Inayity on Ocampo's remarks (Blatant fabrication of Kenya's ICC Cases)[edit]

Firstly, its KENYA NOT Kenia! What the hell is 'Kenia'?!?!?! Get it right next time, son!! Secondly, what Wikipedia rules have I broken??? Stop being petty! Deleting our posts all the time. Looks to me like someone has a problem with the TRUTH!!!

I have quoted Ocampo verbatim! The interview is publicly available here for all to see >>>>>> Moreno Ocampo's interview with Radio Netherlands Worldwide(RNW)[1]

It is a shocking revelation to us here in Kenya, after all the hope people put in ICC just to realize White folks had greedy plans to plant puppets in our government..... We are pissed beyond! So deal with it!!!

STOP DELETING THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaad (talkcontribs) 19:35, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Normally words like shocking etc are not used, as we try to get it as neutral as possible. We could say: "xxxx considered the revelations shocking" if that is relevant... But what is more relevant. I read the interview, but did not fully see the video. Could you indicate at which time points he says charges were fabricated by "western diplomats"? L.tak (talk) 19:40, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

>>> WATCH THE CLIP AND YOU'LL GET IT.....but if you are too lazy to, READ THIS & LOOKOUT FOR THE BOLD ---> “There were some DIPLOMATS asking me to DO SOMETHING more to PREVENT KENYATTA OR RUTO from running in the elections. And I said ‘it’s NOT my job’....." [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaad (talkcontribs) 19:53, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

>>>>> I have deleted the word SHOCKING..... Hurrah, here's a cookie! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaad (talkcontribs) 19:56, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to calm down. And here are some serious tips, you do not WP:OWN wikipedia and there are an established set of rules for how we behave, how we speak to each other and how we engage in improving these pages. If you cannot agree with that then go and add the content to your own blog or forum. Your entire tone is offensive. And Stop SHOUTING, it is just a sign of immaturity. --Inayity (talk) 20:00, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

>>>>>> You're right am pissed off! You piss us off when you delete legitimate posts here on Wikipedia. To us the real immaturity is a guy sitting behind his laptop waiting for me to upload text just for him to delete. Wikipedia isn't even interesting enuff for me to take this bullshit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaad (talkcontribs) 20:08, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I understand the quote "“There were some DIPLOMATS asking me to DO SOMETHING more to PREVENT KENYATTA OR RUTO from running in the elections. And I said ‘it’s NOT my job’.", which I read in the transcript. But you said some western diplomats fabricated charges. So I was wondering how you came about those "fabricated charges". I couldn't find them in teh interview. I also couldn't find the "western" diplomats; just "diplomats". Could you clarify where this info is sourced in the video, because then we can add that to the quote... L.tak (talk) 20:12, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Listen mate, you clearly don't know anything about the cases. Because if you did, you would know am not referring to 'Chinese diplomats'. Why you would you go about putting so much energy in deleting our posts WITHOUT knowing the story is beyond us. Anyone with even a basic understanding of the Kenyan ICC cases would know that its THE WEST we're referring to. You clearly know zilch about our cases.... yet you delete our single post with such vigor.....?!?!? Makes us wonder whether we've touched a raw nerve?

MY ADVICE: Stop chasing (the few remaining) Wikipedians away. Gotta catch the Arsenal-ManU game now.... Listen, we've put references on the main article if you'd like to understand the Kenyan case more, I have to leave. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaad (talkcontribs) 20:33, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Enjoy the game; I will revert, as there is clearly no consensus yet. I just want to clarify: I am a big fan of a neutral point of view and I know the western viewpoint is overrepresented at Wikipedia. But the way to do it, is to back things up with sources, not to read between the lines and in the context and thus interpret what is said. That interpretation is perfect for a blog, a rant, but in an encyclopedia, you have to back it up directly with reliable sources; otherwise it is original research, which is always tempting, but not allowed. That shouldn't be a problem, because there might be many reliable sources reporting this "fabrication of charges". I challenge you to find them, so we can discuss them. But I can not just go with your interpretation (I am also not offering mine; as it is not of any value)... L.tak (talk) 20:47, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Agreed with L.tak. The paragraph as written implied that Ocampo said that diplomats were attempting to "framing them", but I see no evidence of that in the sources provided.
Note that the user is adding the same content to many articles (ie International Criminal Court investigation in Kenya, Luis Moreno Ocampo, Fatou Bensouda) so this discussion has implications beyond just this article. TDL (talk) 21:02, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
how you sell your arguments is also important. I love NPOV b/c i need to be sure in the foundation of the info i use. I am no fan of ICC, if RS establish it as true-- good for my own politics. But the way this editor is going on works against his own agenda. Also U do not need to know the specific to challenge the assertions based on good scholarship. And he is up for a block due to 3RR--Inayity (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Shaking in my boots! The lot of you are EXACTLY what's wrong with the world! Western muppets who think they are better than the rest of the world. Go ahead BLOCK ME from your boring site! And you wonder why the whole of the world is heading East?? China is the future, y'all are just declining empires. Blocked me yet?????

PS: My team won!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkaad (talkcontribs) 22:12, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

The fact that you have not reverted again makes it getting you blocked less likely (administrators always try to avoid future problems, so if you indicate by your actions, you are here to cooperate, chances are you won't be blocked). So if you don't keep doing it and commit to this discussion, you have all opportunities. Again, you have all possibilities to get the points regarding Kenya (Kenia is Dutch, whence my error), as long as it is directly traceable to sources. I think the interview is a good find that could be used, and we could use it to show that pressure was put on the prosecutor to go beyond what he considered his mandate and that he didn't do that (I think that should not be in the "criticism section", as it is not very critical of the court). In the mean time, we can expand the sections regarding the movement of denouncing the treaty with factual information. Would you consider that an acceptable way forward? L.tak (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Removal of Registered vessels situation from case list[edit]

Hi! I would propose removing the situation regarding the registered vessels from the "Detailed summary of investigations and prosecutions" and am fully aware that it was probably me who originally added it there. Given the sensitivity of this issue (there will almost certainly foul cries as citizens of Israel may justifiably be seen as the main "targets" of this referral), I would like to propose this here before the action. The reasoning behind my proposal is that there is a preliminiary examination but no investigation (in the formal sense) in the mentioned situation, not to speak of any prosecutions. Of course, if and when the Prosecutor opens an investigation, the situation should be included in that list immediately.

This proposal conincides with Ukraine accepting the Court's jurisdiction. The situation, however, is not fully comparable as for the Prosecutor to investigate in that situation a Pre-Trial Chamber must approve that move. This is not the case for the registered vessels situation where the Prosecutor may now open (sic!) an investigation on her own at any moment.

If there is no rejection of this proposal within the next week or so I would remove the registered vessels situation from the template.

By the way, with Ukraine now having accepted the jurisdiction it once agains turns out that it is becoming increasing difficult to keep all pages up to date. With the template which was removed about a year ago, this would have been much easier.

Happy Easter to whom it may concern. --EBB (talk) 16:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/ocampo-exclusive
  2. ^ http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/ocampo-exclusive